Replacing the Eagle with Vipers?

[Cameltactics]

https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/are-the-f-15-eagles-days-numbered

 

https://fightersweep.com/7388/air-force-considering-retirement-f-15cd-models-mid-2020s/

 

Real curious what insight the experienced crowd has to these articles and any idea if it's even feasible or just another cage rattle like the efforts to retire the Hog. 

TLDR: General tells HASC today that big blue can replace 15's with Vipers. 

[Cameltactics]

After re-reading the article, I'm starting to think the response was mainly geared toward the homeland defense side and not axing the AD side, but who knows.

If that's the case, I don't see the added edge that an eagle would bring to Noble Eagle over a Viper especially if AESA gets funded for the latter. 

[matmacwc]

As a Viper dude, this is a terrible idea for more reasons than I'll get into.

[matmacwc]

1 minute ago, Cameltactics said:

After re-reading the article, I'm starting to think the response was mainly geared toward the homeland defense side and not axing the AD side, but who knows.

If that's the case, I don't see the added edge that an eagle would bring to Noble Eagle over a Viper especially if AESA gets funded for the latter. 

Because you have no clue

[Cameltactics]

New punk learning the trade but yea, I really don't. Hence the thread and hearing it from the been-there-done-that crowd.

I can only take what I know so far about the two platforms/communities and make a guess that if it happened, life would go on even after a "bad day".

[HU&W]

 

34:20, 55:20, and 1:06:30

[matmacwc]

45 minutes ago, Cameltactics said:

New punk learning the trade but yea, I really don't. Hence the thread and hearing it from the been-there-done-that crowd.

I can only take what I know so far about the two platforms/communities and make a guess that if it happened, life would go on even after a "bad day".

Give it a year young patawan 

[tk1313]

Holy sh!t, we really are going to have to learn the same lessons 2 or 3 times...

[Bobsan]

6 hours ago, HU&W said:

34:20, 55:20, and 1:06:30

Does it seem like the only one who knows what they're talking about in that meeting is the AZ congresswoman?

[Cameltactics]

35 minutes ago, Bobsan said:

Does it seem like the only one who knows what they're talking about in that meeting is the AZ congresswoman?

Martha McSally? First American Woman to fly in combat, flew the hog. 

[ClearedHot]

8 hours ago, BeerMan said:

Money. Specifically "saving" amounts of money that start with the letter B, as in Billions of dollars.

Is a Viper an Eagle? Nope.

Do you need an Eagle to do homeland defense missions? No.

Is America going to lose capability? Yep.

Will America incur increase risk? Yep.

Are there enough Raptors? No.

Is the F-35 a Raptor replacement? No.

Is an F-35 more survivable than an Eagle in any contested environment? Yes.

Read Danny Noonin's post over in the Air to Air Combat thread.

Its a giant math problem that has been going on for a decade and Congress nor the President have helped solve it so the Air Force keeps coming up with "solutions". 

"Two"

I've pontificated on this before, we have been saddled with bills that enable other services (Space, RPA, Cyber), without an increased piece of the DoD pork pie.  The A-10 fiasco had several motivators but the biggest was dollars and cents.  I was in the room for some of these discussions with OSD and SECDEF and they went like this:

SECAF/CSAF - "We need more Money"

SECDEF - "No, execute within existing resources"

SECAF/CSAF - "Copy Boss, We have a Title X responsibility to provide these core capabilities so we are going to eliminate capability A to pay the bills"

SECDEF - "No, Service X needs that capability, execute within existing resources"

SECAF/CSAF - "Copy Boss, We are going to eliminate capability B to pay the bills"

SECDEF - "No, Service X needs that capability, execute within existing resources, and here is a new bill."

SECAF/CSAF - "Copy Boss, We are going to eliminate capability C, D, X, and Z to pay the bills"

SECDEF - "No, Service X needs capability C, D, X and Congress has a special interest in Z, execute within existing resources and here is a new bill."

SECAF/CSAF - "Copy Boss, The only option left on the table that pays the bill is to eliminate the A-10."

SECDEF - "Ok."

Congress - "Not happening, and we direct you to ramp up F-35 production, here is the bill."

Until SECAF/CSAF fall on their sword in a very public manner we will continue to see issues like this.

 

[ClearedHot]

17 minutes ago, Cameltactics said:

Martha McSally? First American Woman to fly in combat, flew the hog. 

Mr. Cameltactics, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Cameltactics]

7 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

Mr. Cameltactics, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Ok....curious where was I wrong here? I mean we're talking about the Congresswoman right? 

[Day Man]

It's hard to convince someone you're broke when you're bankrolling shit like this:

[SocialD]

23 minutes ago, Cameltactics said:

Ok....curious where was I wrong here? I mean we're talking about the Congresswoman right? 

Search her name on here...you'll find the reason for the post by CH.  

[Boomer6]

35 minutes ago, Cameltactics said:

Ok....curious where was I wrong here? I mean we're talking about the Congresswoman right? 

Dude, this is a great time to not pass up the opportunity... 

[HuggyU2]

1 hour ago, Cameltactics said:

Ok....curious where was I wrong here? I mean we're talking about the Congresswoman right? 

You're not from around here, are ya?

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

 

Until SECAF/CSAF fall on their sword in a very public manner we will continue to see issues like this.

 

Awesome post by you & beerman.  Now that I'm on staff, I can see the truth of this situation from a perspective I didn't previously understand.  However, I still don't get why we haven't seen a GO do as you state above.  We are facing a crisis.  Either our leaders disagree and think our force can continue stumbling through it, or they're unwilling to make the level of stink required to fix it.  Either way: WTF?

The worst part is these discussions aren't happening with any depth or introspection in my office..... only on an internet chat board.

[VMFA187]

From the sheer standpoint of aircrew training requirements/proficiency - This is a bad idea. Especially when you consider declining flight hours. Coming from a multi-role platform, I've always been impressed, and comforted, when we've played with Eagles. I want someone who does that mission exclusively in the fight, when it occurs, because half to two-thirds of my time is spent putting heavy objects into or near the ground.

[Hacker]

4 hours ago, Cameltactics said:

Ok....curious where was I wrong here? I mean we're talking about the Congresswoman right? 

Do a little searching on this site about she-who-shall-not-be-named (cha-ching $$ !) and you'll gain some tremendously important insight.  The "story behind the story" with her is just as important as whatever you know about her currently.

[matmacwc]

She is well liked by most southern AZ people, but you should have heard the local talk shows when she was running, the retired A-10 pilot community came out of the woodwork to slam her.  (sts)

Edited March 23, 2017 by matmacwc

[VMFA187]

14 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

... the retired A-10 pilot community came out of the woodwork to slam her.  (sts)

I enjoyed that.

[ClearedHot]

Back to the topic at hand...

I spent over 1/3 of my career in the Weapon School and from the instant I walked through the door at Nellis one thing was blatantly obvious, Albino Drivers are complete and utter assholes (including my old man who was one, but of course excluding BeerMan), that being said they are "our assholes" and I do not want cross the fence without those inglorious bastards.

[hindsight2020]

6 hours ago, Cameltactics said:

Martha McSally? First American Woman to fly in combat, flew the hog. 

[Danny Noonin]

I still don't get why we haven't seen a GO do as you state above.  We are facing a crisis.  Either our leaders disagree and think our force can continue stumbling through it, or they're unwilling to make the level of stink required to fix it.  Either way: WTF?

Fellas, everybody gets it. Every GO gets it. They aren't shy about telling anyone to include SECDEF and congress.

We have too much mission, not enough resources. But what exactly do you think "falling on a sword" will do for that problem? The Navy is worse off than us. Most of their jets can't even fly. They don't have nearly enough boats. They don't have enough people. Same for the Army. Same for the Marines. So if CSAF and or SECDEF falls on their sword, who do you propose DoD should steal the money from? We're all in the same situation.

We have to live within the bounds of the money we are given by DoD. Against direction, the AF tried repeatedly to submit for more but it was thrown back by SECDEF. That pretty much ended the rebellion.

Just because management isn't announcing everything they do publicly doesn't mean they aren't doing all they possibly can. Falling on a sword only makes sense if it will actually accomplish something. It would be absolutely futile in this case.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk