Navy Pilots on Strike over OBOGS Issues

[Steve Davies]

100 T-45 IPs are apparently refusing to fly because of fears over the safety of the jet's OBOGS. 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/04/navy-instructor-pilots-refusing-to-fly-over-safety-concerns-pences-son-affected.html

I am curious to know, is there something about the effects of this OBOGS issue that somehow makes it different to the Raptor's OBOGS issue?

While I appreciate that one is a training asset, the other a front-line operational asset, it just strikes me that response from the two communities is startlingly different. In one case, an entire community refuses to fly, prompting a 3-star Admiral to publicly state that there is no policy of 'Fly or else...', in another a meagre two pilots speak out (one of whom is still trying to resume his AF career), and a one-star General refuses to make it clear that his pilots have a choice to not fly. 

[LookieRookie]

I don't see the Navy response as all that positive. It just seems that the Striking IPs have ground naval aviation to a halt and so now that VADM has to save face. 

Especially telling is the pilots that said only 6 air test tubes were given for all their jets.

"Some instructor pilots point to Rear Adm. Dell D. Bull, chief of naval air training, as the culprit in ignoring the unsafe conditions.

“He is telling us to just, ‘shut up and color,’” one pilot said.  

" 

[Blue]

Don't know what the relation is between the T-45 and F-22 O2 issues.  However, this was kinda discouraging.......

Anticipating the pilot protest, the Navy sent a team of engineers and other specialists this week to its T-45 training bases in Kingsville, Meridian and Pensacola for talks with the pilots.

A meeting Tuesday in Meridian “got heated,” Fox News is told.  The pilots told the civilians from Navy Air Systems Command their complaints about the oxygen system were being ignored. When a senior Navy pilot showed photos of a faulty oxygen system he claimed had been sent up to NAVAIR’s headquarters in Maryland, the engineers said they never received the photos.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Blue

[tk1313]

3 hours ago, Steve Davies said:

100 T-45 IPs are apparently refusing to fly because of fears over the safety of the jet's OBOGS. 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/04/navy-instructor-pilots-refusing-to-fly-over-safety-concerns-pences-son-affected.html

I am curious to know, is there something about the effects of this OBOGS issue that somehow makes it different to the Raptor's OBOGS issue?

While I appreciate that one is a training asset, the other a front-line operational asset, it just strikes me that response from the two communities is startlingly different. In one case, an entire community refuses to fly, prompting a 3-star Admiral to publicly state that there is no policy of 'Fly or else...', in another a meagre two pilots speak out (one of whom is still trying to resume his AF career), and a one-star General refuses to make it clear that his pilots have a choice to not fly. 

Histotoxic hypoxia on the ground?! Send some engineers to the absolute worst jet (immediate symptoms after breathing) for a couple weeks... Tell them to take samples of the air being produced on the ground, then tell them to R&R everything from the concentrator forward all the way to the regulator and mask... Take a sample after the new components have been installed. If everything is good, send it flying with a senior pilot... If the problem persists, time to look for contamination in the ducting upstream of the concentrator. If the pilots are more willing to breathe cockpit air than mask air, you've got a major issue.

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by tk1313

[brickhistory]

So a VADM will be working as a senior VP for some defense contractor shortly since the boys embarrassed Big Grey on the national stage (story ran in a lot of outlets, left and right).

Also 100 guys will be getting a line number at one of the majors soon.

Ballsy move. 

[The-osu]

Are T-6s next? Glad to hear the T-45 at least has ejection seat/ground egress options

[Cameltactics]

Someone mentioned over on the navy version of baseops that their T-6 fleet is facing a similar issue, just not to this scale yet. It got to a point that some IP's were at first thinking students were faking hypoxic symptoms to avoid hooking flights that were going bad, but quickly squashed that line of thinking when studs were going to medical after flights and being diagnosed accordingly. 

I thought UPT T-6's would have the same system but haven't heard anything about it on our side. 

[ClearedHot]

As of late last night all Navy T-45's are grounded.

[Clark Griswold]

Back in the air.

https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=99931

[hindsight2020]

2 hours ago, gearpig said:

This is not a new aircraft with unproven equipment. T-45s have been around as long as I can remember. Did OBOGS suddenly start failing at a drastically increased rate or did everyone recently become afraid of OBOGS due to issues in other aircraft?

Sounds like the former. Aging aircraft develop issues, we may be reaching that threshold with the 45 OBOGS. Also, mx practices play a factor as well. I'm not privy to the Navy mx cadre at Meridian/Kingsville, but lemme tell you, the boo boo that happened at DLF a couple years back with the T-6 ejection seat mx had the make-work crowd scrambling to their civil service safe spaces. I suppose it's slightly easier to recruit maintainers when you're that close to Corpus, can't speak to Meridian. This isn't oil work, the pay delta incentive for the hardship of low QOL is not that great. The Dod legitimately struggles to keep highly qualified mx at many training bases, and gamble with our lives as operators. It's not personal to the DOD, but it certainly is a personal affront to my family. Life ain't fair and all that jazz. And they wonder why people are bailing. Add another penny to that cripple children jar...

[VMFA187]

4 hours ago, gearpig said:

This is not a new aircraft with unproven equipment. T-45s have been around as long as I can remember. Did OBOGS suddenly start failing at a drastically increased rate or did everyone recently become afraid of OBOGS due to issues in other aircraft?

From this side of the house, the common feeling is that it is a combination of both. Older equipment failing at a more rapid rate, as well as an issue that is at the forefront of everyone's minds makes it more likely to be reported.

The below sounds interesting...

""After briefings and discussions with our aircrew, their training wing leadership, the engineers, and aeromedical experts, we have identified a way forward to resume flight operations safely by limiting the maximum cabin altitude to below 10,000 feet in order be able to operate without using the OBOGS system," Shoemaker explained."

Should work out well for BFM. The deck, is the deck.

[nsplayr]

3 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

Should work out well for BFM. The deck, is the deck.

Based on everything I know about naval aviation, kills below the hard deck are not valid, no matter what Jester does while defensive. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by nsplayr

[RTB]

3 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

""After briefings and discussions with our aircrew, their training wing leadership, the engineers, and aeromedical experts, we have identified a way forward to resume flight operations safely by limiting the maximum cabin altitude to below 10,000 feet in order be able to operate without using the OBOGS system," Shoemaker explained."

If I read the article right, the modified mask doesn't tie into OBOGS?  How does that work?  And is the T-45 cockpit unpressurized?  

[VMFA187]

15 minutes ago, RTB said:

If I read the article right, the modified mask doesn't tie into OBOGS?  How does that work?  And is the T-45 cockpit unpressurized?  

We can unplug the hose from the connector which goes into the OBOGS system that is located near our left hip. So essentially you're flying with the exact same equipment, not attached to the system, breathing ambient air through your mask and hose. The T-45 is pressurized, but I don't believe it schedules the same as the Hornet. It's been six years, but someone around the squadron said 15,000' MSL equates to around 10,000' Cabin Altitude. Not sure anymore how accurate that is.

[tk1313]

1 hour ago, RTB said:

If I read the article right, the modified mask doesn't tie into OBOGS?  How does that work?  And is the T-45 cockpit unpressurized?  

My guess is, since they aren't flying above 10k', the "modified mask" is either detaching the hose from the OBOGS on the underside of the panel and possibly attaching an air filter underneath the panel that filters cockpit air (which allows the hose to remain secured to the panel), or just letting the hose dangle freely in the cockpit.

Yes, the cockpit is pressurized as VMFA187 said. The cabin pressurization schedule can be found by anyone curious enough if you know what the Navy/Marine version of the dash 1 is...

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by tk1313

[Fuzz]

Now limited to a max altitude of 5,000': https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/04/21/navy-increases-restrictions-t45-flights-new-cockpit-episode.html#.WPpoDT8OY2g.twitter

[tk1313]

1 hour ago, Fuzz said:

Now limited to a max altitude of 5,000': https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/04/21/navy-increases-restrictions-t45-flights-new-cockpit-episode.html#.WPpoDT8OY2g.twitter

Take a Q-tip and stick it in the cockpit louvers... Breathing that and only that the whole flight probably isn't the best thing for a pilot. Also, it could be pressure related, but it doesn't seem like that's the gripe from the pilots.

Edited April 22, 2017 by tk1313

[BFM this]

Pulling 4 Gs at a cabin altitude of 10k' without supplemental O2?  Yep, that's bound to give you a headache.

[RTB]

Saw this today on Aviation Week...

NASA Finds Boeing Showed ‘No Initiative’ To Fix F/A-18 Hypoxia

Aviation Week & Space Technology 

In a little-noticed addendum to NASA’s report on the unexplained physiological episodes plaguing U.S. Navy F/A-18 pilots, the agency concluded that Boeing, the manufacturer, showed “no initiative” to fix the problem. But Boeing is pushing back, arguing that it has long been a “proactive partner” in the Navy’s efforts to mitigate the harrowing cockpit events.

[SocialD]

A major defense contractor did little (without serious amounts of cash) to help fix their ugly baby????   This is my shocked face...

So glad we still use LOX.

Edited May 21, 2018 by SocialD

[jazzdude]

Where do we draw the line on who pays for the repairs? Say Boeing found a fix: who pays to retrofit the fleet?

If the contractor pays, well, every future contract just got more expensive since them have to build in a pad for unplanned engineering fixes.

If they think the problem is mx and not a design flaw, then yeah, it makes no sense for them to spend money on something that will have no return on investment, unless the gov asks for (and funds) help.

[Day Man]

3 hours ago, RTB said:

Saw this today on Aviation Week...

NASA Finds Boeing Showed ‘No Initiative’ To Fix F/A-18 Hypoxia

Aviation Week & Space Technology 

In a little-noticed addendum to NASA’s report on the unexplained physiological episodes plaguing U.S. Navy F/A-18 pilots, the agency concluded that Boeing, the manufacturer, showed “no initiative” to fix the problem. But Boeing is pushing back, arguing that it has long been a “proactive partner” in the Navy’s efforts to mitigate the harrowing cockpit events.

It's been a problem since 2009, and Navy medicine wasn't included until last year...doesn't sound like the Navy showed any initiative either.

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/02/19/inside-the-navys-fitful-fight-against-cockpit-oxygen-loss/

[ayz33]

Absolutely not true, I live with a guy who is is working the RCCA process very hard and the big dogs in DC and Pax river are happy with what is coming out of his team

[matmacwc]

5 hours ago, Day Man said:

It's been a problem since 2009

I wonder if the F-16 OBOGS has had any problems (BLK 50), I flew with it for a few years starting in 2004!  When it worked, it seemed fine but there was no "little hiccup" in most of them, if they didn't work you were hosed.

Edited May 21, 2018 by matmacwc