AFPAK Hands- Opportunity Beckons

[Warrior]

I know of 2 more C-130 WIC grads who were vectored to afpak hands and GTFO as soon as they could.


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[falcn87]

Astan or Crackity,

I'd be interested in hearing how the non-rates fare in the program if you know.  Is it a similar situation or are they better taken care of by their career-fields?  Asking mainly from an acquisitions perspective

[Crackity Jones]

3 hours ago, Warrior said:

I know of 2 more C-130 WIC grads who were vectored to afpak hands and GTFO as soon as they could.


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@astan777 and @Warrior. And it's not like there are Afghan C-130s or anything.

[astan777]

18 hours ago, 1111 said:

Do you know if AFPAK hands leadership at the joint level (I.e. SECDEF) intend to hold the AF leadership feet to the fire with the letter of the law and send the best and not just the D Team, who Had too much ADSC to 7 day opt?

too often I have seen upper management try to shield the HPO from these kind of "great leadership" opportunity.

During my time, AFPAK leadership at the Joint Staff was represented by an O-6 with little ability to influence  the program.  With no GO top cover, APH was essentially dead on arrival within the Pentagon.  There is no universal standard between the service for selecting Hands (besides the subjective platitudes in the CJCSI) and no accountability mechanism for washing out poor performers during spin-up.  If you carefully parse the AFPC robot message, you'll notice a line about vetting candidates for suitability; I'm certain suitability in this context only means no QFIs and no obvious fatties.  Otherwise, there is no standard.  APH selects easy and manages hard, the exact opposite of programs such Olmsted Scholars and (to a lesser extent) RAS.

Yes, management shields HPOs from this opportunity.  Plenty of stories of shiny pennies having orders drop for APH only to have a GO-level sponsor intervene with AFPC and save the day.  The best part of working at the Pentagon is you get to meet all the guys who successfully stiff-armed the assignment and found their way to a normal staff gig.

20 hours ago, AlifBaa said:

If the goal is O-6 and you're not going to get sent to staff, AFPh at 9-10 years might be your best shot.  I'd suggest you ask yourself why O-6 is this important and whether there's a reason you didn't do well enough to go the traditional route.  If there's a specific adjustment you think you can make, your goal should be to find a 3-4 star willing to direct a WG/CC to put you in the gameplan.  Be ready to lead for a boss who didn't choose you in a squadron that doesn't believe in you.  Duly anointed  you'll make O-6 and maybe even O-7.  (Speaking as someone who has observed this happen a few times.) 

AB - I wanted to follow-up with this portion your otherwise excellent assessment.  Soul-crushing staff jobs aren't the sole providence of APH.  I watched my neighbor suffer through three painful years on the Joint Staff.  It took a tool on him physically and mentally, not to mention his family.  He was a great leader and went on to command, but by god did he pay for it during his time in DC.

Is it normal for folks to scheme and hustle finding a 3-4 star to make their command dreams come true?  We should should be ashamed if someone in our line of work is engaged in this behavior.

No APH has made GO, and I've never met one with that ambition.

[astan777]

4 hours ago, falcn87 said:

Astan or Crackity,

I'd be interested in hearing how the non-rates fare in the program if you know.  Is it a similar situation or are they better taken care of by their career-fields?  Asking mainly from an acquisitions perspective

Non-flyers have an advantage because they don't face as severe a career-timing penalty.  Gate month requirements, credibility, and prejudice within the flying community towards non-standard assignments all add up to make life hard for rated seeking to return to their career fields.

Many talented, upwardly-mobile Hands come from the non-rated community.  Acquisitions, security forces, contracting, all these communities send guys who do well both during the program and afterwards.  They still struggle with the same BS flyers do while deployed but seem to fare better overall.  I would recommend this program to a non-flyer willing to endure the sacrifice.

[astan777]

13 hours ago, Chuck17 said:

Great post. The problem is that it IS dismissed out of hand. Discussion is great, as is understanding... but it's the GO and promotion board level dismissal that make this program radioactive.

Healthy dose of conjecture in your post, there is little to indicate Hands faces "promotion board level dismissal."  The guys who made it were going to make it at any assignment.  The guys who didn't make it were probably never going to make it.  Each board is different and correlation does not imply causation.  Quality officers will endure through the program and promote at a rate which mirrors their peers on the outside.  APH is radioactive for reasons besides promotions.

[17D_guy]

1 hour ago, astan777 said:

Non-flyers have an advantage because they don't face as severe a career-timing penalty.  Gate month requirements, credibility, and prejudice within the flying community towards non-standard assignments all add up to make life hard for rated seeking to return to their career fields.

Wow... how naive I feel thinking this was just the cyber-folks.  You step out of the AFSC for even AF Institutional (SOS, OTS, etc.) you get back-of-the-bused unless you've got that sponsor.  

Had one boss do AFPAK made Col, had another do RAS and also made Col.  But, look at the max exodus of O4+ from our AFSC, and the massive RIF's we took 2008 onward.  Hell, I'll make Col at this point from sheer ability to breath and waiver out PT tests.

[HossHarris]

You can be the best of what's left!

[Chuck17]

1 hour ago, astan777 said:

Healthy dose of conjecture in your post, there is little to indicate Hands faces "promotion board level dismissal."  

Each board is different and correlation does not imply causation.  

 APH is radioactive for reasons besides promotions.

Absolutely. Totally valid. I don't have first hand knowledge, so conjecture is in play, and why I (we) appreciate your statements about the realities of the program. I've based my own opinion on the statements of senior officers who've sat multiple boards. I trust their opinions to confirm what my own intuition says... That's good enough to be "promotion board level dismissal" in my book. I'm not saying "if you do this, you're screwed." I am saying if you do this, your path is different no matter what service you're in. Up to you whether that's good or bad.

Given my outsiders view and the circumstances surrounding folks who've BTDT (not to mention the politics and complexity surrounding that slice of heaven in the world) I'll continue to advise as I have.

Chuck

[astan777]

1 minute ago, Chuck17 said:

Given my outsiders view and the circumstances surrounding folks who've BTDT (not to mention the politics and complexity surrounding that slice of heaven in the world) I'll continue to advise as I have.

Chuck

I see where you're coming from.  However please consider, if you have a young Captain asking for gouge about AFPAK Hands, it'd be much more accurate and helpful in his decision making matrix to say:

"AFPAK Hands sucks because there is a high likelihood you'll be undervalued and misused during your deployments"
"AFPAK Hands sucks because there is a high likelihood you'll never command in this community"
"AFPAK Hands sucks because you'll see the tragedy of our mission in Afghanistan up close"

No one says "AFPAK Hands sucks because I didn't get promoted."  If they do...f*&k 'em.

[Chuck17]

4 minutes ago, astan777 said:

I see where you're coming from.  However please consider, if you have a young Captain asking for gouge about AFPAK Hands, it'd be much more accurate and helpful in his decision making matrix to say:

"AFPAK Hands sucks because there is a high likelihood you'll be undervalued and misused during your deployments"
"AFPAK Hands sucks because there is a high likelihood you'll never command in this community"
"AFPAK Hands sucks because you'll see the tragedy of our mission in Afghanistan up close"

No one says "AFPAK Hands sucks because I didn't get promoted."  If they do...f*&k 'em.

Now that we've got no-shit dudes who've got the experience chimed in, none of us have to rely on heresay. I meant it when I said thanks for your perspective - it helps everyone steer the ship. 

That said if a dude really wants to do this, part of my job is to get him in touch, connected with info from the people who have. They're owed as much regardless of personal opinion.

Chuck

[dream big]

On 4/16/2017 at 9:07 PM, MechGov said:

 

 

I don't think they can/will/need to sweeten the pot that much. But the AF needs to be realistic about the talent it wants or needs for these non-traditional assignments. I'm sure there are some rated folks who want to do AFPAK, just like some want to be a USAFA AOS, go be an Olmstead scholar, hell, even work on a staff. Not saying there's many volunteers, but I'm sure they're out there.

But the forum hit it on the head. You're taking an MWS IP or experienced hand out of line flying, deploying in their aircraft, and bringing air power to bear, and removing that dude from the cockpit for 2x non flying 365s, staff (if he's not sent to time out) in between. And with no promises of returning to the cockpit for a mid career FGO. Besides, is there a real requirement for rated officers?

The Air Force (*cough* Chang *cough*) needs to do some serious expectation management about that program in general, and rated positions specifically. It's endemic to the whole pilot shortage crisis.


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Exactly! If we have a pilot shortage why in god's name are we yanking experienced aviators!? Send some intel or other non-rated folk if this program is that important (to be fair I'm sure it's being pushed from high above HAF..).  I know some non rated that would gladly volunteer for this and benefit their career.  

While we are at it, evaluate the need for a rated dude in various staff positions.  I bet most of that could be fulfilled with non rated guys; likewise evaluate whether a 11M could fill a 11F staff billet and vice versa.  How did these bean counters pass HS let alone college?

 

[Warrior]

@astan777 and@Warrior. And it's not like there are Afghan C-130s or anything.

Which is an entirely different program, currently filled by the ARC (since active duty will fly no more H models when yokota finishes their transition)

[FlyinGrunt]

No more -slick- H models.

Give me an FE or give me death

[HuggyU2]

1 hour ago, FlyinGrunt said:

Give me an FE or give me death

Well, at least you can fly with one in the Guard Herc units.  

[FlyinGrunt]

Or AFSOC or ACC herks.

[Hacker]

My airline's AFPAK Hands program will station you at the Kuala Lumpur Beach Club Café with a tall drink and a companion who will be happy to keep you company, GI.

[Crackity Jones]

6 hours ago, Warrior said:

 

Which is an entirely different program, currently filled by the ARC (since active duty will fly no more H models when yokota finishes their transition)

 

I know the reason, it is just an example that those weapons officers could still be TAA the AAF but aren't. Unfortunately the way personnel system "works" you can't exactly limit the AF's quota to non-rated just because the Afghans don't really have an air force. Those four C-130s don't buy much either.

[pawnman]

11 hours ago, astan777 said:

AB - I wanted to follow-up with this portion your otherwise excellent assessment.  Soul-crushing staff jobs aren't the sole providence of APH.  I watched my neighbor suffer through three painful years on the Joint Staff.  It took a tool on him physically and mentally, not to mention his family.  He was a great leader and went on to command, but by god did he pay for it during his time in DC.

Is it normal for folks to scheme and hustle finding a 3-4 star to make their command dreams come true?  We should should be ashamed if someone in our line of work is engaged in this behavior.

No APH has made GO, and I've never met one with that ambition.

It's normal if you want a command.  And while I don't disagree with your assessment, we need a few bros out there willing to do it, because the douchers are certainly willing to do it.

[Crackity Jones]

11 hours ago, astan777 said:

Non-flyers have an advantage because they don't face as severe a career-timing penalty.  Gate month requirements, credibility, and prejudice within the flying community towards non-standard assignments all add up to make life hard for rated seeking to return to their career fields.

Many talented, upwardly-mobile Hands come from the non-rated community.  Acquisitions, security forces, contracting, all these communities send guys who do well both during the program and afterwards.  They still struggle with the same BS flyers do while deployed but seem to fare better overall.  I would recommend this program to a non-flyer willing to endure the sacrifice.

@falcn87 and @17D_guy to add to @astan777's remarks, there is more leeway within non-rated than rated. Those milestones for IDE, SDE, Staff, Joint, Command are mandated by Goldwater-Nicholas to make O-7. Every service has a version and each community adds to it (IQT, Gates, Upgrades, WIC and every check the box you've ever heard of). For a rated officer, starting two years behind because of IQT, it is impossible to meet the timeline required to pin on O-7 at 24 years without people managing your career so you waste as little time as possible upgrading, going to school and taking command (also part of the reason why rated officers don't take command at Major). Anecdotally non-rated officers up for command can be removed midway through the program to take command (favoritism) because four years is still a long time to be out of your community, unless you just happen to be in acquisition, contracting, finance or security forces and are still doing your job but in Afghanistan, and even then you are still off track for O-7. Not that O-7 or command should be your ambition but it dictates the milestones most of us have to meet and it is the metric which we are judged.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Crackity Jones

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, dream big said:

Exactly! If we have a pilot shortage why in god's name are we yanking experienced aviators!? Send some intel or other non-rated folk if this program is that important (to be fair I'm sure it's being pushed from high above HAF..).  I know some non rated that would gladly volunteer for this and benefit their career.  

While we are at it, evaluate the need for a rated dude in various staff positions.  I bet most of that could be fulfilled with non rated guys; likewise evaluate whether a 11M could fill a 11F staff billet and vice versa.  How did these bean counters pass HS let alone college?

 

I know of at least one 11F billet that ACC wouldn't let go of to a 12B because it would mess with the rated staff allocation.  So instead, it sat unfilled.

[pawnman]

2 minutes ago, Crackity Jones said:

@falcn87 and @17D_guy to add to @astan777's remarks, there is more leeway within non-rated than rated. Those milestones for IDE, SDE, Staff, Joint, Command are mandated by Goldwater-Nicholas to make O-7. Every service has a version and each community adds to it (IQT, Gates, Upgrades, WIC). For a rated officer, starting two years behind because of IQT, it is impossible to meet the timeline required to pin on O-7 at 24 years without people managing your career so you waste as little time as possible upgrading, going to school and taking command (also part of the reason why rated officers don't take command at Major). Anecdotally non-rated officers up for command can be removed midway through the program to take command (favoritism) because four years is still a long time to be out of your community, unless you just happen to be in acquisition, contracting, finance or security forces and are still doing your job but in Afghanistan, and even then you are still off track for O-7.

One might ask why the Air Force has chosen 24 years as make-or-break for general, the earliest of any service.

[Crackity Jones]

Just now, pawnman said:

One might ask why the Air Force has chosen 24 years as make-or-break for general, the earliest of any service.

I think it is the same for all services because it goes up to Congress. Some services and communities have more tolerance and can accept more assignments that are there to fill time.

[tac airlifter]

36 minutes ago, Crackity Jones said:

I think it is the same for all services because it goes up to Congress. 

The 24 pole year is not the same for all services, and is unique to the AF.

9 hours ago, astan777 said:

I see where you're coming from.  However please consider, if you have a young Captain asking for gouge about AFPAK Hands, it'd be much more accurate and helpful in his decision making matrix to say:

"AFPAK Hands sucks because there is a high likelihood you'll be undervalued and misused during your deployments"
"AFPAK Hands sucks because there is a high likelihood you'll never command in this community"
"AFPAK Hands sucks because you'll see the tragedy of our mission in Afghanistan up close"

No one says "AFPAK Hands sucks because I didn't get promoted."  If they do...f*&k 'em.

Awesome post, thanks for contributing your first hand perspective.  Regarding your point about seeing the tragedy of our AFG mission up close, I'd love to hear more anecdotes or experiences from yourself or other hands.  

[Crackity Jones]

6 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

The 24 pole year is not the same for all services, and is unique to the AF.

Awesome post, thanks for contributing your first hand perspective.  Regarding your point about seeing the tragedy of our AFG mission up close, I'd love to hear more anecdotes or experiences from yourself or other hands.  

I stand corrected. Back to the original point, I don't personally know of any rated officers in AFPAK Hands who have subsequently held command. I know of a few non-rated who were removed by their communities half way through the program to take command, but they were likely going to regardless of AFPAK Hands. Suffice to say I don't know of anyone who volunteered that wanted a traditional career path.