Well that was nice while it lasted

[HossHarris]

I'll just leave this here. 

The erosion continues

[Runr6730]

This is the absolute definition of breaking faith with the men and women in uniform.  As someone who extended his ADSC past his UPT commitment to ensure my children could reap the benefits of my service, there is no quicker way to force your people out than to break the promise you made to them.

[Champ Kind]

1 hour ago, Runr6730 said:

This is the absolute definition of breaking faith with the men and women in uniform.  As someone who extended his ADSC past his UPT commitment to ensure my children could reap the benefits of my service, there is no quicker way to force your people out than to break the promise you made to them.

From the article:

A draft of the legislation states the buy-in provision would go into effect one year after the bill is enacted and would apply to servicemembers who enlist on or after that date.

[HossHarris]

Think the adscs will go away once you have to pay in?  Doubtful. 

[Runr6730]

57 minutes ago, Champ Kind said:

From the article:

A draft of the legislation states the buy-in provision would go into effect one year after the bill is enacted and would apply to servicemembers who enlist on or after that date.

Didn't see that, thanks for the clarification

[Gazmo]

This sounds like the old GI Bill. It's still a good deal regardless. $2,400 for 36 months of benefits? Some of us have gotten real used to post 9/11 type benefits and they've become an entitlement, but we all should have known this type of treatment wouldn't last forever. They've gotta rob Peter to pay Paul.

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[Kenny Powers]

Yep, I paid in $100/month for the first 12 months as an E-1/E-2 for the Montgomery GI Bill. Then, after leaving AD and going Guard, that plus my guard GI Bill kicker paid me something around $2000/month for 4 years while I was in College. So pretty good investment in my mind.

Icing on the cake was the State Tuiton Assistance Program my guard unit had. They paid all my tuiton. My GI Bill went straight to my checking account. And neither were taxable income, so I got grants on top of that haha.

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[pilotguy]

16 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Yep, I paid in $100/month for the first 12 months as an E-1/E-2 for the Montgomery GI Bill. Then, after leaving AD and going Guard, that plus my guard GI Bill kicker paid me something around $2000/month for 4 years while I was in College. So pretty good investment in my mind.

Icing on the cake was the State Tuiton Assistance Program my guard unit had. They paid all my tuiton. My GI Bill went straight to my checking account. And neither were taxable income, so I got grants on top of that haha.

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Might be a dumb question but to the GI BILL benefits go to your checking account  first or straight to the school you're choosing to attend for the tuition portion?

[Kenny Powers]

Might be a dumb question but to the GI BILL benefits go to your checking account  first or straight to the school you're choosing to attend for the tuition portion?

 

I have yet to use any post 9/11, but I believe they go straight to the school first and any overage on your school account goes to you. I believe the VA just sees your tuition and fees and pays that amount, regardless of what other grants or what not pay also.

 

The Montgomery GI Bill went straight to your checking account. I don't know what this new proposal does.

 

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[hispeed7721]

Might be a dumb question but to the GI BILL benefits go to your checking account  first or straight to the school you're choosing to attend for the tuition portion?

My wife used a few months of my Post 9/11 to finish her degree, and the money went straight to the school. Although she did receive a $500 check from the VA each term for books (at a max of $1000/year)


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[Mark1]

Anybody who came in while the Post 9/11 GI Bill existed would still have the benefit, so nobody is breaking faith.  I paid into the GI Bill before the Post 9/11 existed, but then utilized the Post 9/11 because it's a far better deal.  Far better to the extent of being a ridiculous benefit.  We're $20 trillion in debt and the moment anybody tries to trim a tiny piece of anything everyone loses their fucking minds.  Something has to give.  I think it's reasonable that the program be fractionally subsidized by the benefactors, just like it was with the GI Bill.  This is a perfect example of how government becomes bloated.  Once a program exists, you can never get rid of it because of this kind of response.

If you use the benefit in a pricey locale and maximized your tuition value out of the Post 9/11, we're talking upwards of $75k in benefit.  And for some reason you can transfer that to your family members?  The intent behind the (Montgomery) GI Bill was to help soldiers transition back into society by facilitating education that could help them build marketable skills.  That was partially a benefit for society-at-large aiming to prevent a bloat of people in their mid-twenties whose only skill was knowing how to kill people showing up on the job market only to get rejected and end up on skid row.  How does covering your 2yr-old's college tuition fulfill that goal again?

As the benefit exists, I think asking people to foot $1200 or $2400 of that bill is not unreasonable, particularly if it makes it viable into the future.

2 hours ago, pilotguy said:

Might be a dumb question but to the GI BILL benefits go to your checking account  first or straight to the school you're choosing to attend for the tuition portion?

With the exception of your BAH and book allowance, post 9/11 tuition benefits go directly to the institution.  Given that it's a government program, payments take a long time to be distributed which will almost certainly be well after your institutions tuition payment deadline.  Technically, in that instance you are on the hook to pay the institution by their deadline and when the GI Bill payment processes your account will have a positive balance which the school will refund to you.

However, when I used the benefit my institution waived the payment deadline for anybody using the GI Bill because they knew that eventually they'd get payment.  That eliminated the need for anybody attending on the GI Bill to have $10k in liquid cash to spare for the 1-3 month differential between tuition payment deadline and the GI Bill payment being distributed.  I'd imagine that's pretty standard for any major institution.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Mark1

[HossHarris]

I'll gladly support trimming some military earned benefits (not entitlements thanks) when I start seeing other unearned entitlements (welfare) in society getting trimmed as well.

[guineapigfury]

The GI Bill is a recruitment benefit.  Transferability is a retention benefit.  That's why you have to do 6 then sign up for 4 more.

[pawnman]

9 hours ago, Mark1 said:

Anybody who came in while the Post 9/11 GI Bill existed would still have the benefit, so nobody is breaking faith.  I paid into the GI Bill before the Post 9/11 existed, but then utilized the Post 9/11 because it's a far better deal.  Far better to the extent of being a ridiculous benefit.  We're $20 trillion in debt and the moment anybody tries to trim a tiny piece of anything everyone loses their fucking minds.  Something has to give.  I think it's reasonable that the program be fractionally subsidized by the benefactors, just like it was with the GI Bill.  This is a perfect example of how government becomes bloated.  Once a program exists, you can never get rid of it because of this kind of response.

If you use the benefit in a pricey locale and maximized your tuition value out of the Post 9/11, we're talking upwards of $75k in benefit.  And for some reason you can transfer that to your family members?  The intent behind the (Montgomery) GI Bill was to help soldiers transition back into society by facilitating education that could help them build marketable skills.  That was partially a benefit for society-at-large aiming to prevent a bloat of people in their mid-twenties whose only skill was knowing how to kill people showing up on the job market only to get rejected and end up on skid row.  How does covering your 2yr-old's college tuition fulfill that goal again?

So, now that everyone has to get a degree to progress, and all the officers need a Master's, how does the GI Bill assist the transition back into society?  Should we have cut the GI Bill for people with marketable skills, like pilots?

[Guardian]

Air Force didn't pay a cent for my Bach or masters. I'm using that thing. And I paid for it. And did 6 years and another 4 to transfer. Don't care if I have marketable skills. I earned it. Sounds like something General Chang would say pawnman.


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[war007afa]

9 hours ago, HossHarris said:

I'll gladly support trimming some military earned benefits (not entitlements thanks) when I start seeing other unearned entitlements (welfare) in society getting trimmed as well.

This. A much higher percentage of our society is being paid to do nothing. Why in the hell would we take from the 1% who sign up to put their lives on the line?

Bullshit flag: raised (P)

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Air Force didn't pay a cent for my Bach or masters. I'm using that thing. And I paid for it. And did 6 years and another 4 to transfer. Don't care if I have marketable skills. I earned it. Sounds like something General Chang would say pawnman.


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I'm only asking that, if the entire goal of the program was transitioning people from the military to the civilian sector through college, we've pretty much fulfilled that goal, no?

[nsplayr]

9 minutes ago, pawnman said:

I'm only asking that, if the entire goal of the program was transitioning people from the military to the civilian sector through college, we've pretty much fulfilled that goal, no?

That was the goal of the original MGIB, not so much this one IMHO. Initial benefits are a recruitment tool, transfer ADSC is a retention tool, nothing more or less. It's a great benefit FWIW.

I wouldn't be opposed to a buy-in if it guaranteed program stability re: future cuts (it can't), or if it expanded benefits (doesn't seem like that's the plan.) So count me opposed to this change although big picture it's a relatively reasonable ask compared to what you get in return and the vet community shouldn't lose its mind at every small change in benefits policy...keeping powder dry and whatnot.

Big picture if the program need additional funds to be sustainable I'd greatly prefer Congress allocate that money via the normal appropriations process and spread the cost over the entire tax base rather than the tiny percentage of the population that's using the program.

For things you want to discourage (i.e. smoking), use taxes are great IMHO. Look, you can smoke, but it's bad for society as a whole so we should and do tax it quite heavily.

But for things you want to encourage like higher educational attainment, we shouldn't be throwing up barriers to using that type of program, even if it's somewhat nominal payments. If just a handful of E-1s decide they can't afford or don't want to pay the buy-in and later end up on the streets rather than in college once they separate, you just blew all of your "savings" and the net benefit for society starts to decline.

Edited April 20, 2017 by nsplayr

[HossHarris]

20 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

it's a relatively reasonable ask compared to what you get in return and the vet community shouldn't lose its mind at every small change in benefits policy...keeping powder dry and whatnot.

This attitude is why earned retirement benefits (not entitlements) have eroded over the last few decades. A little bite here, a little bite there. Before you know it, you're paying for that free healthcare for life .... etc. 

[nsplayr]

I guess I'm just more of a pragmatist. Not going to lose my mind when Congress decides to make relatively small changes to a government program, even one I directly benefit from.

Crying wolf is all the rage in the hyper-partisan political environment today and I'm not a fan. I'd rather save my outrage for truly damaging cuts and reductions that have no logic to them or don't have a foreseeable benefit. I want vets groups to maintain a higher standard of credibility rather than being just another special interest that scratches and claws for every penny for their particular niche.

All that being said, I would rather Congress just appropriate more money from general tax revenues if the GI Bill accounts really need more funding to be sustainable. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by nsplayr

[pilotguy]

12 hours ago, Mark1 said:

Anybody who came in while the Post 9/11 GI Bill existed would still have the benefit, so nobody is breaking faith.  I paid into the GI Bill before the Post 9/11 existed, but then utilized the Post 9/11 because it's a far better deal.  Far better to the extent of being a ridiculous benefit.  We're $20 trillion in debt and the moment anybody tries to trim a tiny piece of anything everyone loses their ing minds.  Something has to give.  I think it's reasonable that the program be fractionally subsidized by the benefactors, just like it was with the GI Bill.  This is a perfect example of how government becomes bloated.  Once a program exists, you can never get rid of it because of this kind of response.

If you use the benefit in a pricey locale and maximized your tuition value out of the Post 9/11, we're talking upwards of $75k in benefit.  And for some reason you can transfer that to your family members?  The intent behind the (Montgomery) GI Bill was to help soldiers transition back into society by facilitating education that could help them build marketable skills.  That was partially a benefit for society-at-large aiming to prevent a bloat of people in their mid-twenties whose only skill was knowing how to kill people showing up on the job market only to get rejected and end up on skid row.  How does covering your 2yr-old's college tuition fulfill that goal again?

As the benefit exists, I think asking people to foot $1200 or $2400 of that bill is not unreasonable, particularly if it makes it viable into the future.

With the exception of your BAH and book allowance, post 9/11 tuition benefits go directly to the institution.  Given that it's a government program, payments take a long time to be distributed which will almost certainly be well after your institutions tuition payment deadline.  Technically, in that instance you are on the hook to pay the institution by their deadline and when the GI Bill payment processes your account will have a positive balance which the school will refund to you.

However, when I used the benefit my institution waived the payment deadline for anybody using the GI Bill because they knew that eventually they'd get payment.  That eliminated the need for anybody attending on the GI Bill to have $10k in liquid cash to spare for the 1-3 month differential between tuition payment deadline and the GI Bill payment being distributed.  I'd imagine that's pretty standard for any major institution.

Makes sense thanks

[Warrior]

I guess I'm just more of a pragmatist. Not going to lose my mind when Congress decides to make relatively small changes to a government program, even one I directly benefit from.
Crying wolf is all the rage in the hyper-partisan political environment today and I'm not not a fan. I'd rather save my outrage for truly damaging cuts and reductions that have no logic to them or don't have a foreseeable benefit. I want vets groups to maintain a higher standard of credibility rather than being just another special interest that scratches and claws for every penny for their particular niche.

Mark the tapes. We agree on something!

[Duck]

It's just the frog slowly boiling.


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[SocialD]

39 minutes ago, Duck said:

It's just the frog slowly boiling.

Pension here, GI Bill there...  Hell, we used to be able to claim laundry while TDY...now I have to fight to get paid for an UBER.

[Vetter]

We are a bankrupt nation. What else do you expect?