Toxic Communities

[Buddy Spike]

7 hours ago, Vetter said:

On a side note, after being pushed around by scheduling, marveling at the ineptitude of my union, or sitting through a painful red-eye, I come back here and realize just how much better my life is now.  I am thankful.

Sounds like you're going for fourth.  

[General Chang]

Duck/Viper,

Thanks for the replies.  Solid posts.  GC

[Tumbleweed]

On 4/24/2017 at 8:49 AM, General Chang said:

Ok guys, serious post for once (yeah, shut-up haters; you loved it the past couple of years).

Tony recently published an article on his site about dealing with toxic leaders to fix the Air Force.

I look around my aviation community (remaining unnamed to protect the guilty), and I just don't see it.  Guess I'm either lucky, clueless, or one of the culprits (again, shut up haters.  Actually trying to be serious here).

Who's in a community out there that actually breeds multiple toxic leaders?  Is there a root cause or is it a conglomeration of problems?  Is your community on the upswing or trending downward?

Conversely, who is in a community with leadership that really "gets it" from Sq CCs on up?  What are they doing right to sustain the greatness of your aviation community?

Really think about these answers.  They could make a difference. 

 

Dude, Unless you are Goldfein himself, NOTHING is going to change.  We've heard the call to cleanse the system of toxic leaders before and nothing came of it, the primary reason I ran for the airlines and a guard unit at my first opportunity almost three years ago.

If you want a toxic community look no further than AFSOC.  Two of the worst most caustic humans that have ever lived have risen to become General Officers in AFSOC.  One gave 30+ commander directed Q-3s while commanding the 15th SOS.  As a Group/CC and deployed JSOAC/CC he hammered a dude in my community for losing his weapon down range, only to lose his gun a short time later and have it covered up by his command chief.  He openly hates anything outside of his realm like the Weapons School and actively fought to end the program, going as far as shaming people who wore their graduate patch, then surrounded himself with patches downrange.  As the Group/CC  he flew a CV-22 into a tree, almost rolling the aircraft into the dirt.  That little escapade got him a commander directed Q-3 of his own from the Wing/CC which would have ended any other officer's career, his punishment was to be there Wing/CC at Cannon where I hear he salted the earth and left a trail of destruction.  Through all of this and multiple IG complaints from people I respect, NOTHING happened and he is now a two star select.  Until you fix assholes like him, NOTHING will change. 

When I dropped my separation papers there was some doubt, the brothers and sisters I fought with were incredible people who shaped my life, now I look at the decision as the best of my life because I don't have to watch toxic leaders destroy the Air Force I love. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Tumbleweed

[Clark Griswold]

On 4/24/2017 at 9:49 AM, General Chang said:

Ok guys, serious post for once (yeah, shut-up haters; you loved it the past couple of years).

Tony recently published an article on his site about dealing with toxic leaders to fix the Air Force.

The answer is one that leadership will likely never accept, they (almost all) must go.  

At this point the only thing that will save the AF from itself is over a 2 to 3 year process, retiring almost all the GOs, eliminating their enablers in the O5 & O6 ranks and retiring a lot E8 to E9s with a whole sale elimination of many of the civilian deputies in these organizations there for continuity but they just continue the same reign of madness, one shinny penny to the next.

Take a page from the corporate world, when a dying once great company makes a turnaround, there is a 99.69% chance it will NOT be with the same management that made a once great company a dying formerly great company.

[Spartacus]

15 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

The answer is one that leadership will likely never accept, they (almost all) must go.  

At this point the only thing that will save the AF from itself is over a 2 to 3 year process, retiring almost all the GOs, eliminating their enablers in the O5 & O6 ranks and retiring a lot E8 to E9s with a whole sale elimination of many of the civilian deputies in these organizations there for continuity but they just continue the same reign of madness, one shinny penny to the next.

Take a page from the corporate world, when a dying once great company makes a turnaround, there is a 99.69% chance it will NOT be with the same management that made a once great company a dying formerly great company.

Shack. I couldn't agree more. I think we're in a "drain the swamp" scenario with the Air Force. I look at the people in my community who are on the cusp of being leadership and I just shake my head. More of the same and almost all of them are toxic with few exceptions. I think it says something when you can look at people who aren't in DO or CC roles yet and everyone already knows how toxic their leadership is.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Spartacus

[Warrior]

Tell me why there is 24/7 ISR ops over countries and we still can't wipe out ISIS or the Taliban in a matter of weeks? You are killing the people at the DGS who analyze the information. 

Scoobs is that you?

[HU&W]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

The answer is one that leadership will likely never accept, they (almost all) must go.  

At this point the only thing that will save the AF from itself is over a 2 to 3 year process, retiring almost all the GOs, eliminating their enablers in the O5 & O6 ranks and retiring a lot E8 to E9s with a whole sale elimination of many of the civilian deputies in these organizations there for continuity but they just continue the same reign of madness, one shinny penny to the next.

Take a page from the corporate world, when a dying once great company makes a turnaround, there is a 99.69% chance it will NOT be with the same management that made a once great company a dying formerly great company.

Will not happen.  Hopefully, because few things could be worse for our nation.  There is only one scenario that shakes up the culture of leadership:

1.  A legitimate existential threat to the average American way of life that can only be solved by military means.
2.  A failure of existing leadership to counter the threat.
3.  A failure of their second and third tier like-minded replacements to counter the threat.
4.  Great tactical minds emerging as strategic geniuses, who defeat the undefeatable threat and overthrow the previous culture.
5.  They become the leaders of a revised military culture that is built around the problems of a new yesterday.
6.  The cycle starts again.

[matmacwc]

I think possibly, never helps anything, just asks questions.  

For the answer Scoobs, you don't stop the bad guys by just taking pictures of them.  This is also why the democrats "virtual wall" will never work.

[Clark Griswold]

6 hours ago, HU&W said:

Will not happen.  Hopefully, because few things could be worse for our nation.  There is only one scenario that shakes up the culture of leadership:

1.  A legitimate existential threat to the average American way of life that can only be solved by military means.
2.  A failure of existing leadership to counter the threat.
3.  A failure of their second and third tier like-minded replacements to counter the threat.
4.  Great tactical minds emerging as strategic geniuses, who defeat the undefeatable threat and overthrow the previous culture.
5.  They become the leaders of a revised military culture that is built around the problems of a new yesterday.
6.  The cycle starts again.

Agree that this (leadership purge will not happen) just my opinion that it likely must.  

[BashiChuni]

8 hours ago, Tumbleweed said:

Dude, Unless you are Goldfein himself, NOTHING is going to change.  We've heard the call to cleanse the system of toxic leaders before and nothing came of it, the primary reason I ran for the airlines and a guard unit at my first opportunity almost three years ago.

If you want a toxic community look no further than AFSOC.  Two of the worst most caustic humans that have ever lived have risen to become General Officers in AFSOC.  One gave 30+ commander directed Q-3s while commanding the 15th SOS.  As a Group/CC and deployed JSOAC/CC he hammered a dude in my community for losing his weapon down range, only to lose his gun a short time later and have it covered up by his command chief.  He openly hates anything outside of his realm like the Weapons School and actively fought to end the program, going as far as shaming people who wore their graduate patch, then surrounded himself with patches downrange.  As the Group/CC  he flew a CV-22 into a tree, almost rolling the aircraft into the dirt.  That little escapade got him a commander directed Q-3 of his own from the Wing/CC which would have ended any other officer's career, his punishment was to be there Wing/CC at Cannon where I hear he salted the earth and left a trail of destruction.  Through all of this and multiple IG complaints from people I respect, NOTHING happened and he is now a two star select.  Until you fix assholes like him, NOTHING will change. 

When I dropped my separation papers there was some doubt, the brothers and sisters I fought with were incredible people who shaped my life, now I look at the decision as the best of my life because I don't have to watch toxic leaders destroy the Air Force I love. 

You're spot on....the guy who groomed him wasn't much better

 

30 commander directed q-3's?! Wow. That alone speaks volumes. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by BashiChuni

[Fiver]

People make choices based on how they are incentivized.

The Air Force incentivizes people to be 'yes men'. Think Christmas parties instead of flying sorties.

To capture true leadership, you need 360 degree feedback. A leader must build relationships with his boss, peers, and subordinates; all while improving the organization. 

We are incentivized, by OPRs, strats, promotions and schools to burn our peers and subordinates to please our boss. The previous SOF commander is an example. We get rewarded to do so.

We get taught, from early on, to not be 'yes men' and to conduct 360 degree feedback, but we are incentivized to do the opposite. Your incentive remains: please your boss, fvck everyone else.

Until the incentive changes, i.e. your school, strat, OPR and promotion is based on inputs from your boss, peers, and subordinates, you will continue to get the same result.

The ones that have relationships with everyone around them and continue to drive the organization, will see the problem and leave the Air Force; they're too smart and talented to tolerate the toxicity.

The ones that do whatever their boss wants, at the expense of the people around them, will be just like you Chang and lead our Air Force.

[bluedevil]

Found this article on Reddit:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/24/a-navy-pilots-take-the-air-force-doesnt-have-a-pilot-crisis-it-has-a-leadership-crisis/

Not a pilot... but I decided to separate after one assignment. I'm absolutely petrified that I spent the past 4 years of my life learning exactly what not to do. I joined to lead and do important shit, I was handed the complete opposite. To make it worse, a good 2/3 of my peers could give a shit about anything but mouth breathing their way to 20. It's just so disheartening.


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[Homestar]

8 hours ago, Fiver said:

People make choices based on how they are incentivized.

The Air Force incentivizes people to be 'yes men'. Think Christmas parties instead of flying sorties.

To capture true leadership, you need 360 degree feedback. A leader must build relationships with his boss, peers, and subordinates; all while improving the organization. 

We are incentivized, by OPRs, strats, promotions and schools to burn our peers and subordinates to please our boss. The previous SOF commander is an example. We get rewarded to do so.

We get taught, from early on, to not be 'yes men' and to conduct 360 degree feedback, but we are incentivized to do the opposite. Your incentive remains: please your boss, fvck everyone else.

Until the incentive changes, i.e. your school, strat, OPR and promotion is based on inputs from your boss, peers, and subordinates, you will continue to get the same result.

The ones that have relationships with everyone around them and continue to drive the organization, will see the problem and leave the Air Force; they're too smart and talented to tolerate the toxicity.

The ones that do whatever their boss wants, at the expense of the people around them, will be just like you Chang and lead our Air Force.

Not sure of your background, but this bears little to no resemblance to the Air Force I know from a KC-135 background.  I'm sure this happens but I think you're over-generalizing.

[VMFA187]

42 minutes ago, bluedevil said:

Found this article on Reddit:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/24/a-navy-pilots-take-the-air-force-doesnt-have-a-pilot-crisis-it-has-a-leadership-crisis/

Not a pilot... but I decided to separate after one assignment. I'm absolutely petrified that I spent the past 4 years of my life learning exactly what not to do. I joined to lead and do important shit, I was handed the complete opposite. To make it worse, a good 2/3 of my peers could give a shit about anything but mouth breathing their way to 20. It's just so disheartening.


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The most difficult time I have had in my career over the last decade as a Fighter Pilot and Marine was when I was an airframes OIC with 35 Marines and 10 airframes while simultaneously going through my 4-ship flight lead upgrade.

Two points: 1) While that approach would certainly result in better leader development at every level, it is incredibly taxing on those put into those positions. 2) Due to having to balance both duties, much like a multi-role fighter, it is nearly impossible to truly excel at either without jeopardizing the other. What happens is you become average at both, detailed many times by my experience operating with Air Force F-15 and F-16 units where their capacity in the air was developed to a higher degree than ours was.

Though I suppose some of that may be attributed to our 6-7 flight hours a month...

[MechGov]

If you want a toxic community look no further than AFSOC.  Two of the worst most caustic humans that have ever lived have risen to become General Officers in AFSOC.

From that ilk I've heard "you are a lightbulb. When you burn out I replace you with another one." Fantastic advice for resource management.

It takes little time to create a toxic culture. It takes YEARS to fix it.


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[Sprkt69]

52 minutes ago, Homestar said:

Not sure of your background, but this bears little to no resemblance to the Air Force I know from a KC-135 background.  I'm sure this happens but I think you're over-generalizing.

What decade was that, the 80's? Either you haven't been paying attention over the last few decades or you've had your cranium stuck in the sand. Either way, Fiver accurately describes the current state of AD AF

[BashiChuni]

56 minutes ago, MechGov said:

 

From that ilk I've heard "you are a lightbulb. When you burn out I replace you with another one." Fantastic advice for resource management.

It takes little time to create a toxic culture. It takes YEARS to fix it.


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ill add on another true story gem "I view you guys as tiny mammals any myself a big dinosaur...and i want you to know that the big dinosaur is proud of all you tiny mammals"

dafuq!?

[Prosuper]

On 4/24/2017 at 5:39 PM, Duck said:

It's only a matter of time before the service does something to "screw" someone over, even O-6s.. A wise Commander once told me, "you can only ask for people to chose either their family or the Air Force so many times before the Air Force loses"


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This!!

[ARAMP1]

On 4/24/2017 at 8:47 PM, LookieRookie said:

Yea they do, they're called SERGRADs. (Selectively Retained Graduates)

 

I've been at Whiting since 2011 and I've never seen one of these mythical SERGRADS.  Can't speak to advanced, but they don't have them in the T6B/primary.  

 

Conversly, every graduating AF pilot training class has approx 3 FAIPS (give or take). 

Edited April 28, 2017 by ARAMP1

[VMFA187]

17 minutes ago, ARAMP1 said:

I've been at Whiting since 2011 and I've never seen one of these mythical SERGRADS.  Can't speak to advanced, but they don't have them in the T6B/primary.  

 

Conversly, every graduating AF pilot training class has approx 3 FAIPS (give or take). 

They have them at Kingsville and Meridian for the T-45. We had two in VT-21 when I was there 2010-2011.

[Trogdor]

3 hours ago, MechGov said:

 

From that ilk I've heard "you are a lightbulb. When you burn out I replace you with another one." Fantastic advice for resource management.

It takes little time to create a toxic culture. It takes YEARS to fix it.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

 

I'll add another little gem from that era in AFSOC..."if you have to choose to be a better aviator or officer, be a better officer."  This to a room full of CGO's, the youngest out of UPT/UNT to the CGO's who have been around a bit.   

It was the trifecta of leadership with my squadron/CC during that time frame.  As said above... two are two stars (or select) while the other is an O-6 on his way to a star from what I hear. Additionally, the HPO syndrome wasn't even hidden, when it was stated that "CGO" awards were reserved for certain "types" of people.  I recognize that there HAS to be a meritocracy, just like there has always been through high school, college, and sports at all levels.  Although, the AF likes to hide where you are in the system, unless you have the decoder ring....

I never thought that this profession would be the example of how not be a part of the team.  When you are at war, you need everyone to be apart of the team, even if they are the worst performers.  If they don't deserve to be there... we HAVE systems to weed them out (and I don't think they are the systems the AF has been using in the last 5-10 years).  The AF forgot how to work as a team, because "performance" had nothing to do with breaking things and killing people.  At least for a time period in AFSOC. 

It is better now, but I know those who came before are still out there.  That is a big part of what has me leaning towards "greener" pastures. 

[BashiChuni]

yeah that was a dark period of leadership...we too had the unholy "trifecta"

[Mikey Donuts]

4 hours ago, Homestar said:

Not sure of your background, but this bears little to no resemblance to the Air Force I know from a KC-135 background.  I'm sure this happens but I think you're over-generalizing.

You must be in a different KC-135 community than my KC-135 community.

[dream big]

9 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

The most difficult time I have had in my career over the last decade as a Fighter Pilot and Marine was when I was an airframes OIC with 35 Marines and 10 airframes while simultaneously going through my 4-ship flight lead upgrade.

Two points: 1) While that approach would certainly result in better leader development at every level, it is incredibly taxing on those put into those positions. 2) Due to having to balance both duties, much like a multi-role fighter, it is nearly impossible to truly excel at either without jeopardizing the other. What happens is you become average at both, detailed many times by my experience operating with Air Force F-15 and F-16 units where their capacity in the air was developed to a higher degree than ours was.

Though I suppose some of that may be attributed to our 6-7 flight hours a month...

I hear you brother, I was left in wing scheduling all by myself for 2 weeks the month I was trying to finish flight lead upgrade before IP school while my "boss" decided to take a vacation.  I had been flying on average once or twice a month before and after the upgrade.  Not the right answer necessarily but I ensured the shop was doing what it needed to but prioritized the flying aspect, got my ass handed to me later.  

Few can do both but at a certain point, you can be good at your ground job or your flying job.  Throw a family into the mix and you're in for a treat. 

 

[Weezer]

On 4/27/2017 at 8:53 AM, Fiver said:

We get taught, from early on, to not be 'yes men' and to conduct 360 degree feedback, but we are incentivized to do the opposite. Your incentive remains: please your boss, fvck everyone else.

The Army does 360 degree feedback formally...some mixed opinions on the effectiveness (article).  If anyone is interested, the site is open for anyone to use at https://msaf.army.mil.