Toxic Communities

[matmacwc]

  On 4/29/2017 at 9:37 PM, BashiChuni said:

One of those LORs is stillLEGEND 

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October 

[Weezer]

  On 4/29/2017 at 10:02 PM, pawnman said:

True, but I feel like a 6-month is a lot easier on my family than a 365.

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So if the goal deploy to dwell for AD is 1:2, then 179s mean 6 months away, 12 at home.  365 means 12 away, 24 at home.  I found 179s can be more disruptive, depending on the frequency...it's hard for either you or your family to really get settled.

[pawnman]

  On 4/30/2017 at 11:42 AM, Weezer said:

So if the goal deploy to dwell for AD is 1:2, then 179s mean 6 months away, 12 at home.  365 means 12 away, 24 at home.  I found 179s can be more disruptive, depending on the frequency...it's hard for either you or your family to really get settled.

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I did 3 6-month deployments on that schedule, and it really wasn't too bad.  But the 179s I'm talking about are the random ones where you're deployed away from your unit, in a non-flying job, for 6 months.  I wouldn't want to deploy for a whole year every three years, that's for damned sure.  At least with the 6-month deployments, I either got to enjoy summer vacation with the kid or I was home for Christmas.  A 365 pretty much ensures you miss both.

 

I think a lot fewer people would bail due to the prospect of a 6 month deployment late in the career.  Plenty already have bailed over the prospect of a 365.

[Duck]

We need to go back to the 90 day deployments. 6 months is still way too long. So it costs more money. What costs more replacing O-4s who are burnt out or breaking those BS deployments between 2 people?


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[Weezer]

  On 4/30/2017 at 1:59 PM, Duck said:

We need to go back to the 90 day deployments. 6 months is still way too long. So it costs more money. What costs more replacing O-4s who are burnt out or breaking those BS deployments between 2 people?


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Not sure 90-day trips meet the need for non-flying positions.  Better is to make sure all billets are required, as discussed in myriad other posts.

Deploying to an ISAF job a few years ago, the Finns split staff billets up between 3 guys:  something like 12 weeks on, 6 weeks off for a year.  Two guys in theater at all times, with overlap for continuity.

[ThreeHoler]

The official email a few months ago was STRD of 1998/1999 for O-5 365s an 2002 for O-4 365s.

If the O-5 list has already jumped to 2001...fence in quickly.


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[ViperStud]

  On 4/30/2017 at 2:14 PM, ThreeHoler said:

The official email a few months ago was STRD of 1998/1999 for O-5 365s an 2002 for O-4 365s.

If the O-5 list has already jumped to 2001...fence in quickly.


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Somehow I doubt this. I was bros with my porch guy and he told me (in 2013, almost 4 yrs ago) that I was top 10 of Viper majors with a 2003 STRD. I realize you're talking all-AF, not just Viper guys. Can it really still be that far back?

[Champ Kind]

  On 4/30/2017 at 2:14 PM, ThreeHoler said:

The official email a few months ago was STRD of 1998/1999 for O-5 365s an 2002 for O-4 365s.

If the O-5 list has already jumped to 2001...fence in quickly.


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  On 4/30/2017 at 2:36 PM, ViperStud said:

Somehow I doubt this. I was bros with my porch guy and he told me (in 2013, almost 4 yrs ago) that I was top 10 of Viper majors with a 2003 STRD. I realize you're talking all-AF, not just Viper guys. Can it really still be that far back?

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I saw the same email as ThreeHoler and the dates check.  Also, this checks with data that I saw several years ago and the STRDs based on the elapsed time make sense as well.  As ViperStud pointed out, though, the average STRDs are probably skewed when it comes to required DAFSCs (certain MDS, W or S codes, etc.)

[Champ Kind]

  On 4/30/2017 at 11:42 AM, Weezer said:

So if the goal deploy to dwell for AD is 1:2, then 179s mean 6 months away, 12 at home.  365 means 12 away, 24 at home.  I found 179s can be more disruptive, depending on the frequency...it's hard for either you or your family to really get settled.

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Are you saying you'd be willing to do multiple 365s in the name of stability?

[SurelySerious]

  On 4/30/2017 at 11:42 AM, Weezer said:

So if the goal deploy to dwell for AD is 1:2, then 179s mean 6 months away, 12 at home.  365 means 12 away, 24 at home.  I found 179s can be more disruptive, depending on the frequency...it's hard for either you or your family to really get settled.

Is your point that it's the same amount of time because it's still a 1:2 ratio?

[pawnman]

  On 4/30/2017 at 2:36 PM, ViperStud said:

Somehow I doubt this. I was bros with my porch guy and he told me (in 2013, almost 4 yrs ago) that I was top 10 of Viper majors with a 2003 STRD. I realize you're talking all-AF, not just Viper guys. Can it really still be that far back?

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This thread is filling me with hope.  My STRD is 2014.

[Snooter]

Edit: Stupid question, never mind...

Edited April 30, 2017 by Snooter

[Bode]

One is a PCS and the other is an "extended TDY". There are differences in follow on assignment considerations. Not sure what else.


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[Snooter]

  On 4/30/2017 at 8:50 PM, Lstcause257 said:

One is a PCS and the other is an "extended TDY". There are differences in follow on assignment considerations. Not sure what else.


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Thanks for the quick reply.  I sorted it out when I started considering the terms 365 day deployment vice remote assignment.  

[Azimuth]

In AMC (which is probably the most toxic community) get rid of the PHOENIX programs.  You get career Airlifters in Tanker squadrons that:

1.  Don't give a shit about the mission or community.

2.  Are only there to check the box and get command.

3.  Never grew up in the community, so of course they don't know how it's ran.

Same could be said for the Tanker "management" that goes to command Airlift squadrons.  Also the majority of folks who PHOENIX programs are the ones that sucked in their original MWS and never flew.  But they're the ones who were the Exec/CAG/Guy who shouldn't be flying, so of course they'll get a great strat.  Then they'll cross flow into the other side of AMC where they'll be Exec/ADO guy who doesn't fly a lot, doesn't know the new jet at all, and is just hanging on to go to school.

Other communities don't do this type of program, don't know why the MAF feels why they have too.

[dream big]

  On 4/30/2017 at 9:31 PM, Azimuth said:

In AMC (which is probably the most toxic community) get rid of the PHOENIX programs.  You get career Airlifters in Tanker squadrons that:

1.  Don't give a shit about the mission or community.

2.  Are only there to check the box and get command.

3.  Never grew up in the community, so of course they don't know how it's ran.

Same could be said for the Tanker "management" that goes to command Airlift squadrons.  Also the majority of folks who PHOENIX programs are the ones that sucked in their original MWS and never flew.  But they're the ones who were the Exec/CAG/Guy who shouldn't be flying, so of course they'll get a great strat.  Then they'll cross flow into the other side of AMC where they'll be Exec/ADO guy who doesn't fly a lot, doesn't know the new jet at all, and is just hanging on to go to school.

Other communities don't do this type of program, don't know why the MAF feels why they have too.

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Agreed, with one exception and the guy that comes to mind was phenomenal in the plane after he came to tankers and now is one his way up; most tanker guys that came to 130s were skilled careerists who could not fly the plane to save their lives.  Likewise, my tanker bros want to punch me in the face after some of the "HPOs" we sent to tankers.  Want a prime example of Phoenix debaucherry? Little Rock AFB under Rhat, tanker guy leading THE c-130 hub of the world.  Good lord the toxicity that came under him was unprecedented.  Now this is not to say it was because he was a tanker guy, it provides evidence of what kind of "guy" Phoenix types usually are.

Yes, eliminate Phoenix.  And stop making our weapons officers Wing execs.  

I don't think ACC does this at all?: making viper guys eagle guys or vice versa for career reasons?  Seems the CAF values depth while AMC values breadth = not being proficient in your airplane..

 

 

[Azimuth]

  On 4/30/2017 at 10:23 PM, dream big said:

Agreed, with one exception and the guy that comes to mind was phenomenal in the plane after he came to tankers and now is one his way up; most tanker guys that came to 130s were skilled careerists who could not fly the plane to save their lives.  Likewise, my tanker bros want to punch me in the face after some of the "HPOs" we sent to tankers.  Want a prime example of Phoenix debaucherry? Little Rock AFB under Rhat, tanker guy leading THE c-130 hub of the world.  Good lord the toxicity that came under him was unprecedented.  Now this is not to say it was because he was a tanker guy, it provides evidence of what kind of "guy" Phoenix types usually are.

Yes, eliminate Phoenix.  And stop making our weapons officers Wing execs.  

I don't think ACC does this at all?: making viper guys eagle guys or vice versa for career reasons?  Seems the CAF values depth while AMC values breadth = not being proficient in your airplane..

 

 

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First, agreed.  Second, I had Rat as a Sq/CC at home station and deployed.  Check his bio, he was a -21/-141/-17 guy.  He was Selva's Wing Exec at McChord while flying the -141.  For the record Rat HATED the KC-135.  He is the exact reason why the PHOENIX program should be canned.  He only came to the -135 to get command, that was it.  

Funny, some of the biggest "skilled careerists" in my neck of the MAF are crossflow -130 guys who volunteer for every GO visit, leadership "lunch and learn", and cookie bake off.

[Scram]

  On 4/30/2017 at 10:31 PM, Azimuth said:

Funny, some of the biggest "skilled careerists" in my neck of the MAF are crossflow -130 guys who volunteer for every GO visit, leadership "lunch and learn", and cookie bake off.

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2

[BashiChuni]

  On 4/30/2017 at 9:31 PM, Azimuth said:

In AMC (which is probably the most toxic community) get rid of the PHOENIX programs.  You get career Airlifters in Tanker squadrons that:

1.  Don't give a shit about the mission or community.

2.  Are only there to check the box and get command.

3.  Never grew up in the community, so of course they don't know how it's ran.

Same could be said for the Tanker "management" that goes to command Airlift squadrons.  Also the majority of folks who PHOENIX programs are the ones that sucked in their original MWS and never flew.  But they're the ones who were the Exec/CAG/Guy who shouldn't be flying, so of course they'll get a great strat.  Then they'll cross flow into the other side of AMC where they'll be Exec/ADO guy who doesn't fly a lot, doesn't know the new jet at all, and is just hanging on to go to school.

Other communities don't do this type of program, don't know why the MAF feels why they have too.

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"Also the majority of HPOs are the ones that sucked in their original MWS and never flew"

fixed it for you. great post. 100% agree.

[Weezer]

  On 4/30/2017 at 6:33 PM, SurelySerious said:

Is your point that it's the same amount of time because it's still a 1:2 ratio?

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Same amount of total time, but more frequent.  Being gone shorter but more frequently means it's hard to reintegrate, since you'll just leave in a year.  Being home for two years makes it easier to be a meaningful part of your family.  Just my experience.

[Weezer]

  On 4/30/2017 at 5:53 PM, Champ Kind said:

Are you saying you'd be willing to do multiple 365s in the name of stability?

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Maybe.

[08Dawg]

  On 4/30/2017 at 9:31 PM, Azimuth said:

Other communities don't do this type of program, don't know why the MAF feels why they have too.

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I dunno if we wholesale stole the idea, but AFGSC has the Stiker Vista program now.  First round sent Bone guys to Buffs and vice versa.  The next round, we're in a full-on three way (STS).  B-2 to Bone, Buff to Bone, Bone to Buff. 

[Azimuth]

  On 5/1/2017 at 2:11 AM, 08Dawg said:

I dunno if we wholesale stole the idea, but AFGSC has the Stiker Vista program now.  First round sent Bone guys to Buffs and vice versa.  The next round, we're in a full-on three way (STS).  B-2 to Bone, Buff to Bone, Bone to Buff. 

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Didn't you guys already do that at the senior leader level?  I know KBAD's last Wing Queen was career B-2's and your current one is a Bone WSO.

[BADFNZ]

  On 4/30/2017 at 10:31 PM, Azimuth said:

 Funny, some of the biggest "skilled careerists" in my neck of the MAF are crossflow -130 guys who volunteer for every GO visit, leadership "lunch and learn", and cookie bake off.

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It's funny because the last few we've sent to Phoenix from the Herk were the sewn-in kneepad types that we wanted out of the community.  You're welcome.

[SurelySerious]

  On 5/1/2017 at 1:40 AM, Weezer said:

Same amount of total time, but more frequent.  Being gone shorter but more frequently means it's hard to reintegrate, since you'll just leave in a year.  Being home for two years makes it easier to be a meaningful part of your family.  Just my experience.

Copy, makes sense now.