Air Force/Airline Meeting

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

On 5/16/2017 at 2:46 PM, ihtfp06 said:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1997/06/09/military-hopes-to-curb-exodus-of-discontent-pilots/267c1c1f-c684-44e4-9c91-281fc9bbbf47/?utm_term=.d93fdfba1879

 

Interesting. First "Phoenix" program worth considering, if it comes to fruition. Though if the Air Force actually pays airlines not to hire younger guys, that will create a shitstorm like no other.

 

 

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See the thing is you think you made a mistake posting the article without checking the date, but you unintentionally proved the point.  Aside from a few clues like the reference to a 60 year retirement and Fogleman, the article is EXACTLY what is being written today.  

 

Anyone who thinks the AF will change are fools.  They will make token efforts to get the gullible to adopt a "wait and see" approach, thus retaining those individuals just long enough for the current crop of AF managers to finish their tenure, claim to have done something, and move on to lucrative "advisor" and "board member" jobs, handing the bag to the next manager who will attempt to do the same.  

[Air V]

2 hours ago, BFM this said:

https://www.airforcehollywood.af.mil/Intro/Article-Display/Article/1187913/goldfein-meets-with-airline-executives/

Awesome.  Absolutely nothing came of this.  Meanwhile, 8 months of the "crisis" has continued since Congress gave the AF the ability to increase ACIP to close to inflation corrected values from 1994. Still, no action.  What else has happened in those 8 months? Well just about every Major I know has separated and gotten hired by the airlines.  What has the AF done to keep any pilot in? All I've seen is that we can roll our sleeves.  If this is really a "crisis," Big Blue is not in "crisis mode."

[hatedont]

1 hour ago, Air V said:

 What has the AF done to keep any pilot in? All I've seen is that we can roll our sleeves.  If this is really a "crisis," Big Blue is not in "crisis mode."

Roll up the sleeves for Stop Loss. AF leaders are like politicians, they like to tell people what they want to hear; and what we want to hear is what won't happen.

Edited May 20, 2017 by hatedont

[*]

3 hours ago, BFM this said:

https://www.airforcehollywood.af.mil/Intro/Article-Display/Article/1187913/goldfein-meets-with-airline-executives/

The article references us as a "national asset". Maybe the AF is starting to realize that pilots are important to this whole AF thing. 

[dream big]

38 minutes ago, * said:

The article references us as a "national asset". Maybe the AF is starting to realize that pilots are important to this whole AF thing. 

Doubt it, most based I've been to are run by shoe clerks.  The shoe clerks chirp and the wing/cc listens.  Ops is secondary.  We are just a bunch of whiny zipper suited sun gods.  That's what's wrong with the Air Force.  Although I just PCSd to an unnamed heavily tasked base in Mid-America and I'm surprised at how mission focused they are.  

[Sprkt69]

1 hour ago, * said:

The article references us as a "national asset". Maybe the AF is starting to realize that pilots are important to this whole AF thing. 

One of the most funny comments I've read today!

[Duck]

"Wait, we have planes at this base?" -overheard at Finance and MPFs around the country...


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[HossHarris]

Someone quipped earlier that the CEOs didn't actually show up and sent emissaries. Please tell me that's true. Anyone have a list of actual attendees?

[STOIKY]

Here's what I got out of this article and the preceding months leading up to this "summit":

Air Force: "We have a national pilot shortage. We need to work together to solve this "crisis"'. 

Airlines: You keep using this word "WE". "WE" don't have a pilot shortage or a retention "crisis"..."YOU" on the other hand...

 

 

 

I'm still at a complete loss as to what the Air Force hoped to achieve by convening this meeting with the airlines. The answers to solve the problems plaguing our organization--specifically with regard to the hemorrhaging of rated talent--are painfully obvious and have been presented to management ad nauseam. 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2017 by STOIKY

[Duck]

I'm still at a complete loss as to what the Air Force hoped to achieve by convening this meeting with the airlines. The answers to solve the problems plaguing our organization--specifically with regard to the hemorrhaging of rated talent--are painfully obvious and have been presented to management ad nauseam. 
 
 
 

They just want to give the perception they are trying to fix the problem. This is all just a game of Russian Roulette for the AF brass. Just hoping it doesn't fall apart on their watch.


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[STOIKY]

Duck,

If management loses this game of Russian Roulette, which I'm somewhat inclined to believe is inevitable, what happens? Do you personally think Big Blue might actually resort to more dramatic methods of pilot retention...such as Stop Loss? I mean, how much worse does it have to get before some sort of action needs to be taken? This is madness. 

[Guest]

Duck,
If management loses this game of Russian Roulette, which I'm somewhat inclined to believe is inevitable, what happens? Do you personally think Big Blue might actually resort to more dramatic methods of pilot retention...such as Stop Loss? I mean, how much worse does it have to get before some sort of action needs to be taken? This is madness. 

12 year UPT ADSCs will likely be the next step, in my opinion. The new blended retirement system means new guys who bail at the end of their ADSC still walk with something, and thus are even less likely to stay in than the guys leaving in droves now. There's no shortage of ROTC, OTS, and USAFA kids who won't realize what they're signing up for when they commit to 12 years, just like I didn't know when I was in their shoes.


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[Duck]

12 year UPT ADSCs will likely be the next step, in my opinion. The new blended retirement system means new guys who bail at the end of their ADSC still walk with something, and thus are even less likely to stay in than the guys leaving in droves now. There's no shortage of ROTC, OTS, and USAFA kids who won't realize what they're signing up for when they commit to 12 years, just like I didn't know when I was in their shoes.


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15 year ADSCs are on the table, being billed now as 8 Active, mandatory 7 Reserve with no possibility of parole. What I see is a 12/3 or 10/5. I think StopLoss is inevitable, but they are trying to keep the cat in the bag. Just one rogue dumbass General speaking off the cuff was enough to start a panic and severe back pedaling.


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[STOIKY]

40 minutes ago, Duck said:

15 year ADSCs are on the table, being billed now as 8 Active, mandatory 7 Reserve with no possibility of parole. What I see is a 12/3 or 10/5. I think StopLoss is inevitable, but they are trying to keep the cat in the bag. Just one rogue dumbass General speaking off the cuff was enough to start a panic and severe back pedaling.


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I have heard the same with regard to 15 year ADSCs for UPT commitments. Eight on AD with seven years in the ARC? What guarantee would there be of finding a home with a reserve unit? Would that be on you? Or  AFPC? What guarantees might transitioning personnel have for actually being released to the ARC once their eight year ADSCs were fulfilled? Would that scope of language be built into the initial service commitment contracts I wonder?

 

If not, and such a policy were implemented, I see a whole lot of future conversations going something like this:

Pilot: My eight year ADSC is nearly up, boss. I'm about to start the separation process and transition to the reserve.... 

Boss: Hey, yeah, so about that. We couldn't find you a home in the reserve/guard. Sorry, man. Guess you're stuck here with the rest of us in general population...

 

In any event, I'd say you and ihtfp06 are probably right. Unfortunately. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by STOIKY

[pilotguy]

Cross posted...

I think they should get rid of the bonus at the end of UPT ADSC. Instead they should enact a rule that allows pilots to fully retire after 15 years (basically 3 years after UPT ADSC expires)

I'd give 3 more years to get a full retirement. 8 no, but 3 would make people think.  Puts a typical dude at age 38 when they get out with a full retirement.  Bet the "take rate" doubles...

It would at least buy them some time.

[Goblin]

33 minutes ago, pilotguy said:

Cross posted...

I think they should get rid of the bonus at the end of UPT ADSC. Instead they should enact a rule that allows pilots to fully retire after 15 years (basically 3 years after UPT ADSC expires)

I'd give 3 more years to get a full retirement. 8 no, but 3 would make people think.  Puts a typical dude at age 38 when they get out with a full retirement.  Bet the "take rate" doubles...

It would at least buy them some time.

That actually isn't a terrible idea.  Its the first time I've said to myself "yeah, I'd consider staying in for that" in a while

 

[pilotguy]

6 minutes ago, Goblin said:

That actually isn't a terrible idea.  Its the first time I've said to myself "yeah, I'd consider staying in for that" in a while

 

Would give retired guys 25ish years at a major instead of 20. (Approx 1.5 million bucks more)

Guys would stay in. Even knowing it might mean a deployment.  Sure it would cost the AF money but do it for 10 years and then go back to the 20 year retirement when the problem is fixed.

 

Its something the AF could do without touching any of the cultural issues (which IMO will take decades to fix) and still retain a shit ton of guys for 3 more years.

 

[ThreeHoler]

35 minutes ago, pilotguy said:

Would give retired guys 25ish years at a major instead of 20. (Approx 1.5 million bucks more)

Guys would stay in. Even knowing it might mean a deployment.  Sure it would cost the AF money but do it for 10 years and then go back to the 20 year retirement when the problem is fixed.

 

Its something the AF could do without touching any of the cultural issues (which IMO will take decades to fix) and still retain a shit ton of guys for 3 more years.

 

They can currently stay in to 24.

[pilotguy]

11 minutes ago, ThreeHoler said:

They can currently stay in to 24.

That number doesn't matter because it changes for everyone. You'll get the opportunity for 5 extra years at a major if they lower retirement age.

[Bender]

That number doesn't matter because it changes for everyone. You'll get the opportunity for 5 extra years at a major if they lower retirement age.

 

I believe he means the AF, not the airline. That number is kind of built into the Air Force's system.

 

We spend so much money on the Air Force already; you suggest spending more in pensions to get a few more years out of each. The alternative is to spend money to make spending 20 an attractive option. 5 years of pension for every single pilot..every single pilot each year, back into making you want to do this...my only question is what makes you want to do this. I'm clear on what makes you push the button...365s, non-flying staff, CBT/self-support, undermanning/overworking, etc.

 

But, even if we fixed that. What makes you want to stay and how do those things need to improve?

 

It's the easy bitch to ask certain things to stop.

 

How about the things you want...that make you want to be in the Air Force. We've mistreated those too...now what?

 

Bendy

 

 

 

 

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[stract]

On 5/18/2017 at 10:56 PM, HuggyU2 said:

I couldn't get a couple of safety-related 847's approved through the bureaucracy my last 2 years in the AF.  How will they manage to change USERRA?

Huggy, my record was 5 years from 847 submission to fruition.  Of course, now I'm on the flip side of that coin as an FMM...

On 5/19/2017 at 0:36 PM, MooseAg03 said:

I think he's talking about the boldface that was along the lines of "Canopy - Open, Toward Trailing Edge - Jump." I never flew it, but heard about their bailout boldface from squadron bros.


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crew canopy cords mask harness crouch dive pull #frommemory

[ThreeHoler]

That number doesn't matter because it changes for everyone. You'll get the opportunity for 5 extra years at a major if they lower retirement age.

Misread the 25 *at* a major as 25 years as a Major.

Disregard.

[Sprkt69]

4 hours ago, Bender said:

 

I believe he means the AF, not the airline. That number is kind of built into the Air Force's system.

 

We spend so much money on the Air Force already; you suggest spending more in pensions to get a few more years out of each. The alternative is to spend money to make spending 20 an attractive option. 5 years of pension for every single pilot..every single pilot each year, back into making you want to do this...my only question is what makes you want to do this. I'm clear on what makes you push the button...365s, non-flying staff, CBT/self-support, undermanning/overworking, etc.

 

But, even if we fixed that. What makes you want to stay and how do those things need to improve?

 

It's the easy bitch to ask certain things to stop.

 

How about the things you want...that make you want to be in the Air Force. We've mistreated those too...now what?

 

Bendy

 

 

 

 

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Things we could want...how about real leaders and not these managers that are flying the servce into the ground.

[flyusaf83]

The 15 year retirement for pilots won't happen, for one reason.  The shoes would lose their minds. There would be mass whining.  The Air Force is committed to treating to valuing us all the same, which is why folks are leaving where they are valued more.

[snoopyeast]