C-12's in Africa

[HercDude]

I've heard of some sweet assignments flying C-12's for the State Department in Africa and South America. I know about the remotes to Korea, but that is not what I am interested in. I searched the AFPC website, but found nothing. Anyone know where I can get some gouge, or any good people to talk to?

[Guest Hydro130]

I don't know who the current Herk functional is down at AFPC these days, but ask your execs and get in contact with the dude.

Also, consider PMing Safe&Clear (only Corpus IP I know currently posting, although Baseops.net recently left also), and asking if they have any gouge/contact info on the C-12 program...

If that's what you want, make sure your dream sheet and CC are well aware!

Cheers, Hydro

[HeloDude]

Would they release any of the Herk guys to fly a C-12 assignment when they're so undermanned? (so I hear). There are some overmanned airframes I would think that would be better able to release some pilots to fill C-12 tours. Just my thought.

[Guest SpectrePilot]

I have NO friggin idea how to scam an embassy/ state-department C12 job, although I know they do exist. (Our previous CO here at VT-35 did just that before coming here.)

Nobody at Randolph knew much about it when I asked a couple of years ago, but maybe I never barked up the right tree.

Keep this thread open and maybe somebody who DOES know will answer, cause I'd like to find out myself. (Belize Embassy, here I come!)

[Baseops.Net]

Yes, they do exist a UPT classmate of mine just finished up a tour in Africa (Ghana, maybe?) attached to the DAO office flying C-12s at the embassy.

He is now back flying Herks in AMC :mad:

Prior to the C-12 job he flew 130s in Yokota.

So, yes it can be done, but probably involves selling your soul to the devil or something.

On your T-ODP at AFPC you need to select "Special Duty Assignment" (options at bottom of page) and then put something to do with "FAO" = "Foreign Area Officer" -- the damn AF keeps changing the name of this job. From an Embassy standpoint it is a DAO job (Defense Attache Office) - but leave it to the AF to *invent* new and deceptive ways to call things...

On the T-ODP you can request any country or even specific countries -- I also believe that you can search for openings (as in Africa, for instance) and find specific vacancies.

There are also (in some Embassies) Mil-Group offices (I think the T-ODP refers to this as Pol-Mil) which is basically the office of the Defense representative to the host nation with regards to military aid / assistance packages. This is also another office staffed by AF guys and you can request these as well.

If you are not yet a 130 IP, you probably have a decent chance at going. APFC does not like to release IPs to do anything other than go back to LR.

Edit-- added more info...

[ 05. April 2006, 17:39: Message edited by: Baseops.Net ]

[Guest Hydro130]

Thanks Baseops!

I will foot-stomp again though (like it or not; it's reality) to keep your CC closely in the loop with regard to your intentions...

They will ultimately make it or break it for you, so the sooner you can get him "on the team", the better...

Best of luck, Hydro

[Guest SpectrePilot]

Well, Baseops, how does one find out which Embassies have their own aircraft? Do they all? If so, then there's gotta be a lot more to choose from than C-12s. Furthermore, are all these birds, whatever they are, flown by Air Force pilots?

[Guest HH-60H]

Safe&Clear

I can't fully answer your questions, but I know not all embassies have C-12's and Navy pilots fly them also.

[Baseops.Net]

I am not sure how to find out which embassies have their own aircraft - although it was my impression that the AFPC website might divulge such information (i.e. stating that they are flying assignments, etc.).

In fact, all of the planes I know of / have seen are C-12s (with the United States of America paint scheme) - the "International" C-12 STANEVAL guys are USAF Pilots located at Fort Rucker (I have two buddies doing this right now...) -- they fly around the world to the different embassies giving checkrides to the DAO pilots there...

And yes, each station typically has AF pilots that fly around the Ambassador's staff, other DAO officers, etc. (in addition to their ground job of being a "diplomat".

As far as CC's go - alas, most AMC 130 SQ commanders are "completely inside the box" only, and probably wouldn't encourage anyone to do anything other than C130AC-->C130IP-->Little Rock-->HQ AMC-->Pentagon etc. (i.e. straight line boring stuff).

[Guest SpectrePilot]

Most commanders definitely that way for sure. Not many have experienced much aircraft variety and never wanted to. I overheard our DO recently counseling a student not to pursue the C12 to Alaska gig as it was bad for his "career". I'm sorry, but a "career" is what the individual WANTS it to be, not what AFPC tells him it needs to be. Otherwise you're just another pawn in the numbers game.

I immediately took him aside and told him what a great opportunity it is to do something unusual and interesting prior to being a part of the big-blue-machine. He's in Alaska now...

[Guest Hydro130]

Originally posted by Safe&Clear:

Most commanders definitely that way for sure. Not many have experienced much aircraft variety and never wanted to. I overheard our DO recently counseling a student not to pursue the C12 to Alaska gig as it was bad for his "career". I'm sorry, but a "career" is what the individual WANTS it to be, not what AFPC tells him it needs to be. Otherwise you're just another pawn in the numbers game.

I immediately took him aside and told him what a great opportunity it is to do something unusual and interesting prior to being a part of the big-blue-machine. He's in Alaska now...

2

That's "The Man" leaning on them, as we all know. As S&C mentored that one kiddo, folks interested in the C-12 should look for words & advice from some of the older craniuims (Chief Pilot, etc) before they waltz into the CC's office with the news.

True, chances are, your CC will try to talk you out of it for above mentioned reasons. Career-killer? My ass! News flash: Not everyone wants to be the damn Chief of Staff! Most of us would be perfectly happy to retire at Maj or LTC if that means getting to do some cool "career-killing" assigments such as C-12s...

Anyhoo, my point with making sure that your CC is in the loop is that they will be your first official line of support against that dreaded career path Baseops mentioned (gotta feed that monkey!) -- the sooner your CC knows your intentions, the more time you have to convince them about it and give them time to work it for you...

Cheers, Hydro

[Guest Hueypilot812]

OK, I've read the thread but wanted to bring this subject back to see if anyone has any recent experience with these assignments. Just to let ya know, I used to post on here quite a bit a few years back as HueyPilot but I got out of the habit for a while.

I've heard of people getting this assignment, including FTU IPs (so I'm not worried about that aspect), but most guys I talk to about it don't know much about the job, or how to get hired for one.

Anyone here have any recent first- or second-hand info? Would it help to learn a language? I tried to update my ADP, and looked in AMS for authorizations, and all that came up was Argentina (which would be cool), Saudi and Kenya...but I know there are other countries as well (knew of someone who went to Turkey). I also remember being at Soto Cano and seeing the C-12 down there...but it had a main gear collapse and I'm not sure if it was ever replaced. That was back in 2002.

Looking at the "special duty" listings at AFPC, it seems the 16-series is mostly Pol-Mil guys that are assigned to the embassy FMO, but not in a flying capacity. AMS C-12 specific jobs are listed as 11M3J, not 16X. Also I know as well that the 11M4X jobs are all non-flying as well. Anyways, I'm a senior captain going to my Major board next year, and I want to go overseas, but would like to do something different instead of the usual Ramstein/Yokota/365-Iraq tours. And I'm a Herk IP with a C-21/UH-1 background.

[sputnik]

Looking at the "special duty" listings at AFPC, it seems the 16-series is mostly Pol-Mil guys that are assigned to the embassy FMO, but not in a flying capacity. AMS C-12 specific jobs are listed as 11M3J, not 16X. Also I know as well that the 11M4X jobs are all non-flying as well. Anyways, I'm a senior captain going to my Major board next year, and I want to go overseas, but would like to do something different instead of the usual Ramstein/Yokota/365-Iraq tours. And I'm a Herk IP with a C-21/UH-1 background.

You want to look for air attache assignements. FAO is something else entirely. Cool or not depending on your perspective, but nothing to do with flying. Don't know any in the AF but I have a bud who does it in the Army and it's a pretty sweet deal.

Back to your question, look at the list of all the attache jobs, some of them are marked "flying" or something to that effect, that indicates it has a C12. I just looked at it a couple months ago so I know the list exists and you can figure out what countries have flying positions. It lists language requirements and the training you get, which means up to a year of DLI enroute. Pretty sweet deal all around.

I'm at home and can't remember my AFPC log in, but try one of these links

https://ask.afpc.randolph.af.mil/Restricted...ListCurrent.xls

or

https://ask.afpc.randolph.af.mil/main_content.asp

If neither works just do a search in AFPC for "air attache" and you'll find it.

No idea how hard it actually is to get one of them, but I have a pipe dream of getting one myself. Best of luck.

[Fozzy Bear]

Two guys from my unit are leaving in a couple months to fly C-12s in Saudi Arabia. They did NOT find the assignment thru AFPC. Commanders get some special insider list or something, cause the ones I've talked to always know of a few posh tours coming down the pipe.

[stract]

my first AOC at the Zoo went to Keyna for his next assignment flying C-12s. He was an Army Major who flew Cobras previously, and the Keyna tour was accompanied for him (I think his official title was Defense Attache or something along those lines). When I was casual at Rucker prior to UPT, the C-12 office was part of the 23 FTS, but they then became Det whatever under AMC and moved their office to Cairns AAF or Dothan (that's where Flight Safety International is).

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Thanks guys...I'll take a look under the Attache list to see what I need to do. I've talked to some other folks that said I should maybe take some language courses and then take the test and be listed as partially speaking a foreign language...that might help grease the wheels at AFPC. I figure I've got a year to a year and a half to learn some spanish!

I'd seriously consider C-12s in Kenya, Thailand or elsewhere, but I'm really hoping to land something in Central/South America. I know of several countries that have (or had) a C-12, such as Argentina, Peru and Honduras.

I really hate how the AMS/ADP system works, because it's got an entirely different section that just generically states "I desire a short/long OS tour". I DO desire an OS tour, but not Ramstein/Yokota or some Iraq/Afghan MITT assignment. I think I'll leave that block unchecked for now and just let the CC know what I want to do, so some AFPC weenie doesn't say "hey, this guy wants an OS tour, so send him to Iraq for 365 days". Knowing how they work, they'd probably consider me a "volunteer" if I had the OS tour block checked.

[herkbum]

I'm looking for some info along these lines. Has anyone heard of an "attachment for flying" or something similiar? It allows someone that is geographically separated to fly with another unit to maintain currencies, such as an AMLO or ALO. Does this ring a bell for anyone?

[Herk Driver]

I think his official title was Defense Attache or something along those lines

Defense Attaches work for the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). You don't need to be a DATT to get this job. You may in fact be attached to the Defense Attache Office for reporting requirements, etc but that would probably be the extent of it. That may be where the funky "official title" came from.

Herkbum, in answer to your question, yes, there is a way to get attached to a unit and it is for exactly what you are talking about. You need to find a nearby unit and check into whether they will let you attach. There are some paperwork requirements as this is a quasi-legal arrangement where you have to be "legally" attached to the unit you are flying with, paperwork and all. They are then responsible for your FEF and checkrides, etc. There is an AFI that covers it, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. Either an 11-2MDS V2 reg or one of the AFORMS AFI's.

Edit: Check AFI 11-401 para 2.20.1. Good info there.

[Guest Hueypilot812]

Defense Attaches work for the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). You don't need to be a DATT to get this job. You may in fact be attached to the Defense Attache Office for reporting requirements, etc but that would probably be the extent of it. That may be where the funky "official title" came from.

I did check that spreadsheet provided in another link above, and it lists all the Defense Attache (16F) positions. Some are outlined in red as a "rated" position, and if you look in the notes next to the type of position all the "rated" positions have the additional abbreviations of "FP", which I'm assuming is a "flying position". The notes on another attachment mentions specifically if you get selected for a rated position the training timeline includes the C-12 course.

I'd really like to do the C-12 gig in Argentina, but it seems the two training dates are either too early (I'd have to leave for language training just shy of two years TOS) or too long (next date would require me to be at LRAFB for 5 years...not sure that'd happen). Seems to me a good deal job, although my CC told me today it would probably deny me O-5. All I want to do is retire, and the opportunity to do something cool is more of a pull than to sit in a cubicle hell at TACC/AMC trying for O-5 (knowing my luck, I'd get passed over anyways!).

[herkbum]

Defense Attaches work for the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). You don't need to be a DATT to get this job. You may in fact be attached to the Defense Attache Office for reporting requirements, etc but that would probably be the extent of it. That may be where the funky "official title" came from.

Herkbum, in answer to your question, yes, there is a way to get attached to a unit and it is for exactly what you are talking about. You need to find a nearby unit and check into whether they will let you attach. There are some paperwork requirements as this is a quasi-legal arrangement where you have to be "legally" attached to the unit you are flying with, paperwork and all. They are then responsible for your FEF and checkrides, etc. There is an AFI that covers it, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. Either an 11-2MDS V2 reg or one of the AFORMS AFI's.

Edit: Check AFI 11-401 para 2.20.1. Good info there.

Herk Driver,

Thanks for the info, I will look it up tomorrow when I get to work. Luckily, there is a Herk unit in the same command that will work perfectly and I have been talking with a buddy of mine there. I need to send the proper e-mails and I have been told by the WG/CC that he will write whatever he needs to write.

[Guest Safe&Clear]

Hey guys-

The last time I looked into this, all the info for application was indeed on the AFPC website, but just like everything else on their website, it was hard to find. Took a bunch of clicks, and I don't feel like looking for it again. But it is there. It's under Air Attache/ Defense Liaison, something like that...

It listed a bunch of countries in the aforementioned spreadsheet (which was often outdated), when the class dates and assignment dates were etc.

It also contains a list of things you've gotta produce for your "application package", one of which was include your DLAB score. If you score well and get selected, they send you to language school before the assignment. So taking language classes beforehand would be a waste of time.

The site also lists a phone number for the assignment guy at Randolph who runs the program. Guess if he ever answered the phone? You guessed right. Guess if he ever returns messages on his voicemail? Right again.

I ended up saying f-ck it. But, the info's all there. If you're deployed with nuttn else to do, putting together your package (STS) would kill some time! Good luck.

[Herk Driver]

I did check that spreadsheet provided in another link above, and it lists all the Defense Attache (16F) positions. Some are outlined in red as a "rated" position, and if you look in the notes next to the type of position all the "rated" positions have the additional abbreviations of "FP", which I'm assuming is a "flying position". The notes on another attachment mentions specifically if you get selected for a rated position the training timeline includes the C-12 course.

I'd really like to do the C-12 gig in Argentina, but it seems the two training dates are either too early (I'd have to leave for language training just shy of two years TOS) or too long (next date would require me to be at LRAFB for 5 years...not sure that'd happen). Seems to me a good deal job, although my CC told me today it would probably deny me O-5. All I want to do is retire, and the opportunity to do something cool is more of a pull than to sit in a cubicle hell at TACC/AMC trying for O-5 (knowing my luck, I'd get passed over anyways!).

Got it. Just checked the spreadsheet and indeed it lists the Air Attache positions that have flying responsibilities. Small point but an AIRA is not the DATT; that is where my confusion was coming from.

[Toro]

Two guys from my unit are leaving in a couple months to fly C-12s in Saudi Arabia.

Not a bad gig IMHO. There are two pilots, they fly out of Dhahran. It's Saudi Arabia, so it sucks, but you get tax free, hostile fire, hazard duty, family separation, etc., without actually getting shot at (hopefully). You're also a 20 minute drive to Bahrain where booze and hot chicks are legal. If you want any details, PM me and I can get you in touch with the guys there.

[sputnik]

Here's another C12 gig I'd never heard of until today, Egypt. There's a few (4 I think) out there, it's not a DAO thing and no language training, falls under CENTCOM. Some sort of liaising with Egyption military. Talked to a guy today who did it, two year accompanied remote.

Don't really feel like living in Egypt, but it's something different and Lord knows there's worse places.

[sputnik]

To get the embassy jobs, it is an extensive process, and almost all of the are going to be taken by RAS officers. However, if you want a shot at one you have to apply to SAF/IA and the AF Colonels group. Getting the jobs isn't easy, and you'll have to convince someone at some point that you are responsible enough to truly represent your entire service to a foreign country.

By this point you are probably saying, I've been in the AF x years and haven't heard of half the stuff you are talking about. These jobs aren't secret in any way, but you probably know that the traditional command track culture plays a little part in overlooking this path because it takes you away from the Flt/cc-OGV-ADO-DO-CC ladder.

Anyway, I should probably start a new thread on RAS, because it sounds like there are a ton of smart guys on this site that would be trying to go for it if they knew about it. Until I get a chance to put it up, know that its a great deal, 1.5-2 years in Monterey, CA which includes a Masters and language training at DLI with a great follow-on assignment usually. And there's a big quota for pilots...from every airframe.

You should start a new thread, or just write on this one, I'd be interested.

I am curious about the statement that the attache embassy jobs were going to RAS, I was told exactly the opposite. My guy could have been wrong, I'm just curious as to where you heard it.