Syrian Su-22 Shot Down by US Aircraft

[Majestik Møøse]

Good luck using the Intelink search function. Completely useless, unless you're looking for an unrelated 2009 PowerPoint file that requires registration to view.

[Fud]

15 hours ago, M2 said:

Do us all a favor and post the link on the BaseOps SIPRNET Intellipedia page (yes, there is one!)...

M2, could you PM me the SIPR link for baseops? I'm not sure how to get there. 

8 hours ago, Bender said:

Sometimes I feel like the SIPRNet is like the dark web...if you don't know where you're going, you ain't going anywhere fast.

Bendy


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

I just watched two phenomenal documentaries about the deep/dark web on Hulu (can't remember the title) and one about bitcoin.  Very interesting stuff.  From my limited understanding, the deep web is just a bunch of non-indexed sites on the regular internet requiring special software (TOR) to get to them.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Fud

[Breckey]

Do us all a favor and post the link on the BaseOps SIPRNET Intellipedia page (yes, there is one!)...

Posted.

[HuggyU2]

Glad to see MOB's jet get the Syrian flag on it.  I figured someone with rank my find it "offensive", and stop that from happening.  

 

 

[Steve Davies]

For those who don't get to see the VTRS:

https://livestream.com/wab/tailhook2017/videos/162478715

[JeremiahWeed]

4 hours ago, Steve Davies said:

For those who don't get to see the VTRS:

https://livestream.com/wab/tailhook2017/videos/162478715

I'm not fluent in "Navyspeak" but I know enough to get by.  I've been retired for almost 8 years but I think I can extrapolate what I knew back then to have a reasonable idea of the environment.  I also freely acknowledge my limited exposure to CAS and A/G in general.  So, with that all said.... interesting video, but from what I can tell it seems like it was kind of a cluster.

What I got from their story was this:  They launch on a CAS mission and plan to stack up over the troops and drop when needed and it's their turn.  Mob has an issue with FLIR and by pure happenstance ends up sort of "swinging" to A/A and is the only one with his radar/master mode setup for A/A since everyone else is trying to drop iron.  In spite of the presence of AWACS and probably a Navy E-2 (apparently on different freqs than the CAS guys) he ends up being the one to find this lone SU-22.  With all the 21st century capes in theater, no one helps with the ID (YGBSM) and he ends up having to do it visually, followed by THREE warning passes (how long did he spend in the Fitter's WEZ doing that?).  It's difficult to believe that we're "thumping" all-aspect capable red air threats while dropping flares in their face in an effort to defend our ground troops and local airborne assets.  Heater (failed or defeated?) with -120 follow up... good results.  Then there's the egress which involves selective jettison of the rest of his A/G ordnance...... not before the A/A engagement????  (But, maybe I'm missing something there?  Surface threat post engagement dictated it?  Can't land with it?......  Don't know, just seems weird.)  I also spent a few brain cells trying to figure out why there were 5 guys talking mission specifics on the stage.  Apparently another 2-ship and maybe a single joined them on the egress? 

I get the tactical environment is challenging there.  It sounds like ROE isn't easy to apply and the presence of "grey" players complicates things further.  It sounds like the air threat is minimal but obviously has the potential to escalate at any time.  So, that begs the question:  Why isn't there at least a small amount of dedicated A/A assets.  Are we stretched that thin there that everyone has to be ready to pull double duty while stacked up trying to support troops on the ground?  No option to put a DCA CAP or two up with one J.O.B. so the CAS assets can focus on that critical (and difficult) mission?   It kind of needs to be black or white.  It's either a completely permissive A/A threat environment or it's not.  If it's not, then expecting guys to just audible the occasional red-air encounter is a recipe for a lucky red kill or worse... frat.  What if Mob had been full up FLIR and had his master mode in the soda straw like everyone else?  What if the Fitter driver had more of a clue and wanted him some Hornet during the "thumping"?  It kind of reminds me of the last F-18 kills almost 30 years ago in 1991.  Two guys in A/G mode trying to drop bombs get a short notice threat call.  They scramble to "swing" to A/A..... one gets a lucky snap lock and the other digs his lock out of the scope after a couple of sweeps.  They stroke a couple of MiG-21s at visual range head on and go back to dropping iron....kind of a close call.  But is that as far as we've progressed almost 3 decades later?

I don't know.  Maybe I'm totally off base and someone can set me straight.  I'm happy for these guys and it seems like they executed well overall.  Killing MiGs is good sport, believe me.   But, this seems like there are some gaping holes in the plan, IMO.

Edited September 15, 2017 by JeremiahWeed

[matmacwc]

I think they tripped into it without thinking about it or training to an air threat but pulled it off.

[VMFA187]

4 hours ago, JeremiahWeed said:

I'm not fluent in "Navyspeak" but I know enough to get by.  I've been retired for almost 8 years but I think I can extrapolate what I knew back then to have a reasonable idea of the environment.  I also freely acknowledge my limited exposure to CAS and A/G in general.  So, with that all said.... interesting video, but from what I can tell it seems like it was kind of a cluster.

I get the tactical environment is challenging there.  It sounds like ROE isn't easy to apply and the presence of "grey" players complicates things further.  It sounds like the air threat is minimal but obviously has the potential to escalate at any time.  So, that begs the question:  Why isn't there at least a small amount of dedicated A/A assets.  Are we stretched that thin there that everyone has to be ready to pull double duty while stacked up trying to support troops on the ground?  No option to put a DCA CAP or two up with one J.O.B. so the CAS assets can focus on that critical (and difficult) mission?   It kind of needs to be black or white.  It's either a completely permissive A/A threat environment or it's not.  If it's not, then expecting guys to just audible the occasional red-air encounter is a recipe for a lucky red kill or worse... frat.  What if Mob had been full up FLIR and had his master mode in the soda straw like everyone else?  What if the Fitter driver had more of a clue and wanted him some Hornet during the "thumping"?  It kind of reminds me of the last F-18 kills almost 30 years ago in 1991.  Two guys in A/G mode trying to drop bombs get a short notice threat call.  They scramble to "swing" to A/A..... one gets a lucky snap lock and the other digs his lock out of the scope after a couple of sweeps.  They stroke a couple of MiG-21s at visual range head on and go back to dropping iron....kind of a close call.  But is that as far as we've progressed almost 3 decades later?

I don't know.  Maybe I'm totally off base and someone can set me straight.  I'm happy for these guys and it seems like they executed well overall.  Killing MiGs is good sport, believe me.   But, this seems like there are some gaping holes in the plan, IMO.

If you're launching into an AO with A/A and A/G ordnance, manning lanes, while also simultaneously being expected to listen to another agency and to dynamically target an incredibly wide array of ground targets, whenever the need arises, which is probably often, then I'd imagine operations could turn into a cluster relatively quickly.

I think it likely has something to do with the incredibly large geographic area and whether it is worth having dedicated A/A players, who are solely around for the potential escalation regarding an A/A threat. That's a lot of hours on our assets. We're already complaining about the hours we're putting on our F/A-18s, F-15Es, and F-16s.

It'd be nice if it was black or white, but right now it's not.

 

[Lawman]

Having just come back from the AOR I can tell both of you guys a lot of "wtf?!!" Went on immediately following this event. A lot of stuff and requirements were re-evaluated and/or changed.

All and all though Syria is muddy water to say the least. The TAGS/AAGS diagram really doesn't cover the whole picture.

[JeremiahWeed]

1 hour ago, VMFA187 said:

If you're launching into an AO with A/A and A/G ordnance, manning lanes, while also simultaneously being expected to listen to another agency and to dynamically target an incredibly wide array of ground targets, whenever the need arises, which is probably often, then I'd imagine operations could turn into a cluster relatively quickly.

I think you're kind of making my point for me.  I'm not necessarily talking about USAF A/A assets or turning it into a big "thing" if the threat potential isn't there.  Aren't their enough Hornets in a CAW to put a couple of bubbas up in an A/A config to mind the store?  Something?

I've been party to more than one slowly growing cluster in that general vicinity of the world and it's easy to become the frog in the boiling water.  Operators adapt and deal with it.  I'm just make some observations on the outside looking in.

[waveshaper]

Today Russian warplanes bombed US/SDF forces in Syria. Thankfully there are no reports of any US casualties "yet" but it appears there are SDF casualties. IMHO, the last paragraph sez volumes!

Excerpt from CENTCOM;

Russian warplanes deliberately targeted the U.S. backed anti-Islamic State Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) near Dayr Az Zawr Saturday, U.S. Central Command said in a statement.

The strike did not wound any U.S. special operators embedded with the SDF though they were in the same area.

The Coalition and its partners remain committed to the defeat of ISIS and continued de-confliction with Russian officials. Coalition forces and partners always retain the right of self-defense, CENTCOM stated.

[TreeA10]

Not the ideal post location but it is Syria related.  

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17493/russia-says-january-5th-attack-on-its-syrian-air-base-was-by-a-swarm-of-drones

Edited January 9, 2018 by TreeA10
Not gud spelin

[tac airlifter]

59 minutes ago, TreeA10 said:

Not the ideal post location but it is Syria related.  

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17493/russia-says-january-5th-attack-on-its-syrian-air-base-was-by-a-swarm-of-drones

Thanks for posting.

From a capability perspective, the article implies a massed attack rather than swarming (nomenclature which indicates self-coordinating software, or a degree of autonomy).  Nonetheless it's a great example of adversary TTP advancement.  Wish we knew more about the "EW" measures their base defense folks used to counter the attack.

[Lawman]

Thanks for posting.
From a capability perspective, the article implies a massed attack rather than swarming (nomenclature which indicates self-coordinating software, or a degree of autonomy).  Nonetheless it's a great example of adversary TTP advancement.  Wish we knew more about the "EW" measures their base defense folks used to counter the attack.

The Army has been in a come to Jesus scramble thanks to what ISIS did in Mosul with drones.

DE and EW are going to be the kings of the day and last I saw they already have a Humvee and Stryker mounted bolt on module testing out in the desert.

[matmacwc]

56 minutes ago, Lawman said:

DE and EW are going to be the kings of the day.

 

With a few exceptions we've been screwing this up for decades.

[Lawman]

2 hours ago, matmacwc said:

With a few exceptions we've been screwing this up for decades.

Like I said “come to Jesus scramble.”

how anybody with stars on their shoulders could sit through a MSIC briefing from the DE lady and not come out of that thinking “good god we are way behind the curve” is beyond me. But hey let’s spend time/money developing a new PT uniform....

[Clark Griswold]

Russia says it used arty to give some payback to the drone attackers.

Russia Says it Blew Up Terrorists Behind Syria Drone Attacks With Laser-Guided Artillery