"We're not training commercial pilots."

[Hacker]

9 hours ago, Gazmo said:

 In a lot of ways airline pilots, even ones that weren't in the military, are vastly superior aviators.

From my perspective as a career fighter/trainer guy in the AF, and now having flown at both the regionals and the majors...could not disagree more.

Herding airliners around the sky, from both an airmanship/decisionmaking/judgment/thinking perspective and a stick-and-rudder perspective, is "vastly" easier than 90% of the tasks I had to perform even as a wingman in the Strike Eagle.  The military flying required greater "headwork" and flying skills on an acute basis, task-for-task and hour-for-hour.

There are a good number of airline pilots that I work with now who would not last a day doing what I did for a career in the AF -- and I now, sadly, have to include myself in that description.  My skills have atrophied even in a couple years of droning in the flight levels and babysitting the FMS.  Even the most challenging situations I've run up against -- maintenance issues, challenging weather, dealing with unruly pax -- don't require the skill and proficiency I had even a handful of years ago when I was turning-and-burning for a living.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Hacker

[Motofalcon]

Well, I read this two ways/have two opinions:

1) The flt/cc and/or IPs are trying to tell you that if you are only here to get your ticket into the airlines, you are here for the wrong reasons. What we do as military pilots may be similar (MAF) or not that close beyond the fact we are both in airplanes (CAF), but either way, this isn't Embry Riddle, so if that's what you are here for, get out. I see nothing wrong with setting that expectation right up front, especially with all the airline/AF exodus in the news; we don't want LTs who are just waiting for their clock to run out so they can go fly for the big 4 (we have enough O-4s doing that...)

2) You're goddamn right I'm better than an airline pilot. I'm also the best fighter pilot in the Air Force. If you don't believe me, come fly with me and I'll prove it.  I say that with some sarcasm, but I also know I spent ten solid hours of academics about 2 months ago (and probably 480 more of self study) learning about to use M7.1 in my mighty viper and efficiently employ the 69 different weapons we carry. Not once did we talk about the fact that I am also flying an airplane at the same time (by myself #singleseat), and I'll have to recover it (via hand flying!) sometimes to 200' on an ILS. And I might have 3 wingmen following me around as well. That is just assumed. So when an entire airline pilot's - sorry, crew's - job is to take off, go somewhere else, and land, which is all of .80% of my cranium, yeah, I'll feel a bit superior. They can get butt hurt about that and cry during their drive home in their Maserati and lick their wounds while they don't work for a week, while I sweat my ass off in MOPP4. That's fine, that's the deal, and you bet your ass I envy them in some aspects.  However, I also don't go around telling everyone I am better than an airline pilot, and they are just idiot bus drivers, or whatever. That's just poor form and seems petty. They have their benefits (QoL, money, etc) and I have mine (BFM, dropping weapons, shooting the gun, Red Flag, etc).  No need for name calling, especially since some of them have been here and done this (ref Hacker above and many, many others on this forum)

 

[Buddy Spike]

5 hours ago, Hacker said:

From my perspective as a career fighter/trainer guy in the AF, and now having flown at both the regionals and the majors...could not disagree more.

Herding airliners around the sky, from both an airmanship/decisionmaking/judgment/thinking perspective and a stick-and-rudder perspective, is "vastly" easier than 90% of the tasks I had to perform even as a wingman in the Strike Eagle.  The military flying required greater "headwork" and flying skills on an acute basis, task-for-task and hour-for-hour.

There are a good number of airline pilots that I work with now who would not last a day doing what I did for a career in the AF -- and I now, sadly, have to include myself in that description.  My skills have atrophied even in a couple years of droning in the flight levels and babysitting the FMS.  Even the most challenging situations I've run up against -- maintenance issues, challenging weather, dealing with unruly pax -- don't require the skill and proficiency I had even a handful of years ago when I was turning-and-burning for a living.

This.  Airline flying is just the motherhood. 95% is just busy work and dealing with the other assholes in the airplane, 5% is actual flying. 

And that's why people love it so much. It's an easy job for a good paycheck. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Buddy Spike

[Motofalcon]

2 hours ago, gearpig said:

 

Are you on drugs right now?

Because it seems like you are on drugs.

Yeah, yeah - you know what I mean. Besides making a point here in this discussion, I don't normally go around saying these things to any young UPT/MQT student I see.

[SocialD]

I knew before I even showed up to UPT that I was going to try to be an airline pilot.  I didn't announce it to the world, but if asked, I didn't hide it.  If they didn't like my answer, fuck'em, my long term goals were none of their business.  

WRT the best pilots...whatever.  All I know is that, as an airline guy, I'm more appropriately compensated in $$$ and time off.  The rest, no one cares about but you.  

Edited July 14, 2017 by SocialD

[DirkDiggler]

16 hours ago, Motofalcon said:

Well, I read this two ways/have two opinions:

1) The flt/cc and/or IPs are trying to tell you that if you are only here to get your ticket into the airlines, you are here for the wrong reasons. What we do as military pilots may be similar (MAF) or not that close beyond the fact we are both in airplanes (CAF), but either way, this isn't Embry Riddle, so if that's what you are here for, get out. I see nothing wrong with setting that expectation right up front, especially with all the airline/AF exodus in the news; we don't want LTs who are just waiting for their clock to run out so they can go fly for the big 4 (we have enough O-4s doing that...)

2) You're goddamn right I'm better than an airline pilot. I'm also the best fighter pilot in the Air Force. If you don't believe me, come fly with me and I'll prove it.  I say that with some sarcasm, but I also know I spent ten solid hours of academics about 2 months ago (and probably 480 more of self study) learning about to use M7.1 in my mighty viper and efficiently employ the 69 different weapons we carry. Not once did we talk about the fact that I am also flying an airplane at the same time (by myself #singleseat), and I'll have to recover it (via hand flying!) sometimes to 200' on an ILS. And I might have 3 wingmen following me around as well. That is just assumed. So when an entire airline pilot's - sorry, crew's - job is to take off, go somewhere else, and land, which is all of .80% of my cranium, yeah, I'll feel a bit superior. They can get butt hurt about that and cry during their drive home in their Maserati and lick their wounds while they don't work for a week, while I sweat my ass off in MOPP4. That's fine, that's the deal, and you bet your ass I envy them in some aspects.  However, I also don't go around telling everyone I am better than an airline pilot, and they are just idiot bus drivers, or whatever. That's just poor form and seems petty. They have their benefits (QoL, money, etc) and I have mine (BFM, dropping weapons, shooting the gun, Red Flag, etc).  No need for name calling, especially since some of them have been here and done this (ref Hacker above and many, many others on this forum)

 

F%ckin A!

[BashiChuni]

20 hours ago, Motofalcon said:

Well, I read this two ways/have two opinions:

1) The flt/cc and/or IPs are trying to tell you that if you are only here to get your ticket into the airlines, you are here for the wrong reasons. What we do as military pilots may be similar (MAF) or not that close beyond the fact we are both in airplanes (CAF), but either way, this isn't Embry Riddle, so if that's what you are here for, get out. I see nothing wrong with setting that expectation right up front, especially with all the airline/AF exodus in the news; we don't want LTs who are just waiting for their clock to run out so they can go fly for the big 4 (we have enough O-4s doing that...)

2) You're goddamn right I'm better than an airline pilot. I'm also the best fighter pilot in the Air Force. If you don't believe me, come fly with me and I'll prove it.  I say that with some sarcasm, but I also know I spent ten solid hours of academics about 2 months ago (and probably 480 more of self study) learning about to use M7.1 in my mighty viper and efficiently employ the 69 different weapons we carry. Not once did we talk about the fact that I am also flying an airplane at the same time (by myself #singleseat), and I'll have to recover it (via hand flying!) sometimes to 200' on an ILS. And I might have 3 wingmen following me around as well. That is just assumed. So when an entire airline pilot's - sorry, crew's - job is to take off, go somewhere else, and land, which is all of .80% of my cranium, yeah, I'll feel a bit superior. They can get butt hurt about that and cry during their drive home in their Maserati and lick their wounds while they don't work for a week, while I sweat my ass off in MOPP4. That's fine, that's the deal, and you bet your ass I envy them in some aspects.  However, I also don't go around telling everyone I am better than an airline pilot, and they are just idiot bus drivers, or whatever. That's just poor form and seems petty. They have their benefits (QoL, money, etc) and I have mine (BFM, dropping weapons, shooting the gun, Red Flag, etc).  No need for name calling, especially since some of them have been here and done this (ref Hacker above and many, many others on this forum)

 

But as your hand flying your ILS who is getting ATIS?!

[JeremiahWeed]

4 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

But as your hand flying your ILS who is getting ATIS?!

Dafuq you need ATIS for if you're already on the ILS?

Seriously, all the shit dudes have said here rings true.  The only thing I'll add is that one's success in making the transition if you choose that path in the future isn't a given.  It takes some work and a simple but crucial understanding that you're entering a completely different environment.  Harder?  Hell no, not by a country mile.  Apply yourself maybe half as much as you did to get through UPT and you'll be fine.  But thinking that being a SH Viper, Hornet, Raptor, -17, whatever guy is going to carry you through on its own is a mistake. Your mil status is also not a guaranteed job offer. The airlines don't start beating your door down when they find out you're available though, at the current hiring rate it may seem like that for some guys.  Expect to put in some time prepping for interviews and realize you're breaking very new ground.  There's lots of gouge from the bros out their and several well run companies that'll relieve you of a small, but worthwhile investment to make sure you're ready to sell yourself when the time comes. It's a multi-million dollar career that many mil guys have missed out on because they decided to wing it and figured WIC, a 1000 hours of IP time in the Viper or some other feather in their cap was going to make it a breeze.  

Not hard.....just different......way different. 

Oh and while I gocha here......The shit some mil guys do and say (the famous 5% we've all met) when they finally start their new careers would make you cringe.  The tools who have come before you leave a lasting legacy.  When you hear the stereotypes assigned to us all thanks to those clowns, you'll maybe have a slightly understanding of what it's been like being an Eagle driver since that fateful day at Kadena 30+ years ago    .  

So, try to play nice with the civilians.  Taking every opportunity to attempt to impress them with combat stories or "there I was" BS, making them feel inferior in general or lecturing them on how things were back in your old life isn't generally the best option.  There will be plenty of bros in the other seat to swap stories with but not always.  Also, accepting that airline X is paying your a shit-ton of money to fly their jet the way they want you to and not how you think it should be flown is also extremely helpful. Adjust accordingly and be one of the 95%.  Good luck with whatever path you choose.

Edited July 15, 2017 by JeremiahWeed

[dream big]

6 hours ago, JeremiahWeed said:

Dafuq you need ATIS for if you're already on the ILS?

Seriously, all the shit dudes have said here rings true.  The only thing I'll add is that one's success in making the transition if you choose that path in the future isn't a given.  It takes some work and a simple but crucial understanding that you're entering a completely different environment.  Harder?  Hell no, not by a country mile.  Apply yourself maybe half as much as you did to get through UPT and you'll be fine.  But thinking that being a SH Viper, Hornet, Raptor, -17, whatever guy is going to carry you through on its own is a mistake. Your mil status is also not a guaranteed job offer. The airlines don't start beating your door down when they find out you're available though, at the current hiring rate it may seem like that for some guys.  Expect to put in some time prepping for interviews and realize you're breaking very new ground.  There's lots of gouge from the bros out their and several well run companies that'll relieve you of a small, but worthwhile investment to make sure you're ready to sell yourself when the time comes. It's a multi-million dollar career that many mil guys have missed out on because they decided to wing it and figured WIC, a 1000 hours of IP time in the Viper or some other feather in their cap was going to make it a breeze.  

Not hard.....just different......way different. 

Oh and while I gocha here......The shit some mil guys do and say (the famous 5% we've all met) when they finally start their new careers would make you cringe.  The tools who have come before you leave a lasting legacy.  When you hear the stereotypes assigned to us all thanks to those clowns, you'll maybe have a slightly understanding of what it's been like being an Eagle driver since that fateful day at Kadena 30+ years ago    .  

So, try to play nice with the civilians.  Taking every opportunity to attempt to impress them with combat stories or "there I was" BS, making them feel inferior in general or lecturing them on how things were back in your old life isn't generally the best option.  There will be plenty of bros in the other seat to swap stories with but not always.  Also, accepting that airline X is paying your a shit-ton of money to fly their jet the way they want you to and not how you think it should be flown is also extremely helpful. Adjust accordingly and be one of the 95%.  Good luck with whatever path you choose.

Sooo....no more naming parties and roll calls?

[HossHarris]

No 

but that doesn't really exist (like it used to be) on ad either. 

And the airlines pay you enough to throw your own strippers and beer naming party if you feel like it. Every weekend if you're really feeling froggy. 

[Buddy Spike]

2 hours ago, HossHarris said:

No 

but that doesn't really exist (like it used to be) on ad either. 

And the airlines pay you enough to throw your own strippers and beer naming party if you feel like it. Every weekend if you're really feeling froggy.

And as an added bonus, the strippers make excellent ex-wives for you to bitch about to your FOs as they take half your $300k/yr paycheck.

[EvilEagle]

On 7/14/2017 at 1:56 AM, Hacker said:

From my perspective as a career fighter/trainer guy in the AF, and now having flown at both the regionals and the majors...could not disagree more.

Herding airliners around the sky, from both an airmanship/decisionmaking/judgment/thinking perspective and a stick-and-rudder perspective, is "vastly" easier than 90% of the tasks I had to perform even as a wingman in the Strike Eagle.  The military flying required greater "headwork" and flying skills on an acute basis, task-for-task and hour-for-hour.

There are a good number of airline pilots that I work with now who would not last a day doing what I did for a career in the AF -- and I now, sadly, have to include myself in that description.  My skills have atrophied even in a couple years of droning in the flight levels and babysitting the FMS.  Even the most challenging situations I've run up against -- maintenance issues, challenging weather, dealing with unruly pax -- don't require the skill and proficiency I had even a handful of years ago when I was turning-and-burning for a living.

I.... can't.... believe.... I'm....saying....this....

.

.

.

.

Hacker's right.

 

Damn, I never thought I'd have to say that - it hurt more than expected.  

[The-osu]

On 7/13/2017 at 9:16 AM, STOIKY said:

Since starting UPT I've noticed a pretty steady berating of the airline industry by the staff. Just about every briefing I attended as an APT'er or now while in Phase 1 has included shots fired at the airlines--specifically, the pilots themselves. Everyone from my flight commander on up has said something at some point: airline pilots are "puppets" or "bus drivers", military pilots are "much better trained in all aspects of flying" and if you wanted to fly for the airlines, "you wouldn't have come here". We have a lot of guard/reserve guys in our class and most, if not all of them, have said they're planning to head to the airlines when eligible. But none of them have been disrespectful or boasted about it. All of the active duty appear focused on getting the airframe they want--not career goals a decade or more away. I'm the oldest AD student in my class and have lofty goals of maybe working for the majors after my UPT commitment is satisfied, but I understand that's a ways off and dependent on a lot of variables (many of which are unknowns at this point). That said, we [the students] are not starting off conversations with the staff by saying "Hi, I'm Lt so and so, and I'm just here to use the USAF as a stepping stone to SWA". It's not like that at all from what I have observed and I am just wondering what prompted all of this lecturing about the airlines? Admittedly, I expected the occasional comparison or jab. However, this is habitual. Almost scripted?

Any other UPT studs or recent grads on here pick up on any of this? Gray Beards/Veterans, was it like this 10-15 years ago when you started pilot training? If this is a recent phenomenon, do you think it's connected to the Air Force's pilot exodus?  

Stan, go study your boldface

[Steve Davies]

21 hours ago, EvilEagle said:

I.... can't.... believe.... I'm....saying....this....

.

.

.

.

Hacker's right.

 

Damn, I never thought I'd have to say that - it hurt more than expected.  

Well, to make the experience less unpalatable, you could akways ask him who he thinks barrel rolls better: airline pilots or AF pilots (or maybe ex-AF airline pilots)?

[Hacker]

9 hours ago, Steve Davies said:

Well, to make the experience less unpalatable, you could akways ask him who he thinks barrel rolls better: airline pilots or AF pilots (or maybe ex-AF airline pilots)?

Just to be technically correct, they were aileron rolls.

[HuggyU2]

11 hours ago, Steve Davies said:

Well, to make the experience less unpalatable, you could akways ask him who he thinks barrel rolls better: airline pilots or AF pilots (or maybe ex-AF airline pilots)?

Wow.  

[Lord Ratner]

14 hours ago, Hacker said:

Just to be technically correct, they were aileron rolls.

I have said this about a million times in the past 5 years...

[ClearedHot]

On 7/16/2017 at 2:24 PM, Steve Davies said:

Well, to make the experience less unpalatable, you could akways ask him who he thinks barrel rolls better: airline pilots or AF pilots (or maybe ex-AF airline pilots)?

Steve Davies off the top rope.

[ARAMP1]

On 7/13/2017 at 10:25 PM, Bender said:

I'm not an airline pilot, so it's an honest question when I ask...when a pilot isn't actively flying (and totally, of course, is almost completely focused on improving the first officer's basic airmanship while they are), what time is spent focused on this that would/could make them vastly superior aviators?

In the 17-18 days a month that I do have off, I'm usually thinking of things other than flying.  I'm contemplating random things like maintaining the NaCl level in my pool after it rains.  Or, how I'm going to buff out the 6" gash in the door of my wife's brand new Porsche after my son crashed into it with his bike when I took his training wheels off.  Or what speakers I'm going to use in the movie room of my house when I upgrade from my 5.1 Dolby surround to 9.1.2 Atmos.  

Edited July 20, 2017 by ARAMP1

[JeremiahWeed]

On 7/13/2017 at 10:25 PM, Bender said:

Proficiency and experience...okay, I'm with you on the conceptual level...good qualities that make a quality aviator.

Hmm...I've yet to hear a newly minted airline guy mention how nice it is to finally get to focus on flying. Seems like they just talk about all the days off and money. Maybe I'm just hearing what I want to hear. Haven't heard how nice it is to finally have all this extra time to spend with those young first officers that have just so much left to learn about being a great aviator. Again, as has been mentioned, maybe my desire to rationalize my own choices biases me to read/hear only what fits my narrative.

I'm not an airline pilot, so it's an honest question when I ask...when a pilot isn't actively flying (and totally, of course, is almost completely focused on improving the first officer's basic airmanship while they are), what time is spent focused on this that would/could make them vastly superior aviators?

This other world is foreign and bewildering,
Bendy



Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

Bender,

Just my opinion, but airline flying doesn't make anyone a "vastly superior aviator"(VSA).  There are certainly good and bad airline pilots and if they're the latter, chances are they've never been a VSA.  However, there are plenty of good airline pilots, both mil and civilian that still aren't what I would call vastly superior.  They get the job done and that's enough.  If a civilian pilot is a VSA in someone's opinion, they got that way before they came to the airlines.  Who knows what that even means.  Great hands because they flew practically everything with wings from a Stearman to an Extra300 with some DC-6  and P-51 thrown in for good measure?  Just a natural?  I know those types from both paths.  Maybe they've got all that and can recite the FARs chapter and verse and they're a CRM machine.  There's lots of metrics someone could use to call a guy a great aviator.  I guarantee what we call great in the military may not be the same.  Some of the traits might be similar but the two environments are different enough that it's apples and oranges.  Could a civilian VSA excel in the military?  Sure.. some but not all.  The same goes for moving in the other direction.  My point though is that the airline environment isn't a test for any VSA, no matter how he got that way and what his background is.  There's stuff to study and stay up on procedurally like any aviation job, mission prep possibly if you've never been somewhere you're going, but unless you're just a total slug, it just takes a little discipline now and then.  The nice thing is, most of that can be accomplished at cruise or on a layover while you're on company time and not your own. 

I'd say it's worthwhile to put this whole airline thing into perspective.  It's admin.  STTO, Climb, Cruise, Descent, Approach and Landing.  There are some different rules and procedures, aircraft systems, etc. to learn but it's pretty basic.  There may be some new territory for some guys who've never taken a transport category aircraft from FL350 to landing, flown a jet via keystroke or knob all while having the throttles magically hold your airspeed without anyone touching them.  But it ain't close to most guy's bread and butter in the military, an airshow guy like Sean Tucker, bush pilots in AK or the guys humping around the pylons at Reno.

The airline thing is great for some but it's not for everyone.  The end result is money and the free time to use it.  That's what it's all about.

[HossHarris]

5 hours ago, ARAMP1 said:

In the 17-18 days a month that I do have off, I'm usually thinking of things other than flying.  I'm contemplating random things like maintaining the NaCl level in my pool after it rains.  Or, how I'm going to buff out the 6" gash in the door my wife's brand new Porsche after my son crashed into it with his bike when I took his training wheels off.  Or what speakers I'm going to use in the movie room of my house when I upgrade from my 5.1 Dolby surround to 9.1.2 Atmos.  

Adding water doesn't decrease the salt. It's the salt water aquarium conundrum. 

[ARAMP1]

1 hour ago, HossHarris said:

Adding water doesn't decrease the salt. It's the salt water aquarium conundrum. 

I've never owned an aquarium, so I can only presume that the water evaporates leaving the salt behind.

But in a swimming pool, rain water will dilute the salinity ...and after I drain the pool back down to the proper level, the salt is very often a few hundred PPM lower (I like keeping it around 3700-ish PPM).  And storms always bring with them diluted chlorine levels and a higher leaf and twig count that's always fun to fish out.  

ETA:  We're talking a heavy rain here...6-8 inches or so.  If it's only an inch or two of rain, it won't make a dent.

Edited July 20, 2017 by ARAMP1

[nivek21]

3 hours ago, ARAMP1 said:

I've never owned an aquarium, so I can only presume that the water evaporates leaving the salt behind.

But in a swimming pool, rain water will dilute the salinity ...and after I drain the pool back down to the proper level, the salt is very often a few hundred PPM lower (I like keeping it around 3700-ish PPM).  And storms always bring with them diluted chlorine levels and a higher leaf and twig count that's always fun to fish out.  

ETA:  We're talking a heavy rain here...6-8 inches or so.  If it's only an inch or two of rain, it won't make a dent.

After reading the discussion about proper pool salination.  I can proudly say that I can't wait to become a "commercial" pilot. 

[HU&W]

5 hours ago, ARAMP1 said:

I've never owned an aquarium, so I can only presume that the water evaporates leaving the salt behind.

But in a swimming pool, rain water will dilute the salinity ...and after I drain the pool back down to the proper level, the salt is very often a few hundred PPM lower (I like keeping it around 3700-ish PPM).  And storms always bring with them diluted chlorine levels and a higher leaf and twig count that's always fun to fish out.  

ETA:  We're talking a heavy rain here...6-8 inches or so.  If it's only an inch or two of rain, it won't make a dent.

You should consider getting a screen enclosure to help with the leaf issue.  It has an added benefit of blocking the majority of UV, so you don't have to worry about constant reapplying sunscreen to the kids while swimming.

[ARAMP1]

1 hour ago, HU&W said:

You should consider getting a screen enclosure to help with the leaf issue.  It has an added benefit of blocking the majority of UV, so you don't have to worry about constant reapplying sunscreen to the kids while swimming.

It really wouldn't work with my backyard/landscaping setup, and since I'm home every day, I don't mind adding "skimming the pool" to my few daily chores.  Leaves aren't really an issue unless it storms anyway.  I'm more concerned about what my neighbors think if they drive by and happen to see me sitting around the pool with a beer, margarita, or martini before noon.