Navy/AF/ANG

[Judgesmails]

So I've been seriously considering applying for a pilot/OCS seat within one of the service branches. I've narrowed it down between the Navy, Air Force , or maybe even the air national guard. I'm currently leaning navy but having second thoughts because I've heard that don't do too much flying. Can anybody attest to this? Any advice or how to choose between these three branches? 

[Stoker]

I think AF Reserve / Air National Guard is considered "the best deal." You get to pick (provided they'll hire you) what aircraft you'll fly and where you'll be based long-term. No PCS every three years (which I'd say is generally a plus, maybe a minus if you're young and single but I think by the end of your ADSC it's 99% a plus). From what I have read the squadron atmosphere is more congenial in the Guard and to a lesser extent the Reserve, versus Active Duty. Lifestyle, you can go part time relatively early on compared to AD and go fly for the airlines, and every year sooner you get to the airlines is theoretically worth something like $250k to you.

This is an Air Force -centered forum, you'd probably find better views on the Navy side of things at Air Warriors.

[ARAMP1]

In the Navy, as an O-3 you'd more than likely do what's called a disassociated sea tour.  It's where you're job is to deploy with an aircraft carrier to be a shooter or some other position that requires a pilot to fill but isn't flying.  Also, about half the student pilots track helos.  If you want to fly rotary-wing, you'll have a higher chance of doing it in the Navy vs the AF.   

[tk1313]

Honest question: Why are you leaning Navy? I've been told the flying is different, but not necessarily less time spent in the air.

[ATIS]

Navy post flight school:

1.  Fleet Squadron (rank: 01/02/03):  Learn to fly your aircraft and fight it (words from my first Skipper).  I did that in spades...only 03 in the command that could lead strikes and held many quals other squadron higher ranking folks didn't have.  I did all that great stuff at the detriment of my ground job....which in reality is worth just as much for your future.  Don't make that mistake.  I was the best NFO in the aircraft, but my 80% ground job made me #2 behind a so-so guy in the aircraft...but brilliant at his ground job (and highly visible).  I will put a big bumper sticker on this by saying some CO/XO's weigh flying and ground job differently...learn to read your managers and leaders to find out which way the wind blows. 

2: Shore tour (03): This could be flying or non-flying depending on "needs of the Navy" and your desire.  I wanted  Operational Test...so I went to Pax River and continued to fly (not as good a gig as the schoolhouse/RAG, but sure beat sitting a desk).  Plus I networked like crazy and that is the best part of my flying tour in Pax.  Most folks that go on to be carrier shooters via disassociated sea tours are P-3/P-8 folks that need some "sea time".  Being land based squadrons, Big Navy pushes the P-3/P-8 community to take these shooter tours.  They are on the competitive track for them.  Carrier aviators, not so much, there are better places to go.

3. Once done with your Shore tour, you most likely have either gotten out (end of your obligated service for aviation) or have made it to LCDR (04) and earmarked for a Deptartment Head tour, they try to get you to school and then you head off to flying again as a DH.

4.  Post DH tour, again you are back on shore duty either flying or not.  04's are in leadership now so pure fun flying is limited...but still available.  Again, this is the time the Navy will look to send you to school to make you a more productive sailor and you will want to do this to better your chances for 05/Squadron Command.

5.  Squadron Command or 05 fodder:  If you make 05 and select for command...great.  If you don't, there are tons of 05 "hard fill" billets out there for you to suck up (COTF/Air Boss,/Air Ops/ship staff/shore commands, etc.).  Not a bad deal and that gets you to 20. 

Of course in all the steps above....if you show up to the command, and do a good job you normally track with your FITREP to move to the next rank.  As a DH in a squadron, you really need to break out as #1 or #2 in Operations and/or as the Maint Officer.  If you don't, you aren't going to screen for command (but may still make 05). 

Navy has it's politics as well, but not nearly as complicated as the USAF way.  Getting the FITREP you want is always a political side step, but once your bed is made you quickly find out which track you are on (superstar headed to squadron command, a line flyer, or a piece of FOD....and I have seen plenty of all three).

If you want to fly Maritime Patrol in the P-8, come to the Navy (and get your 737 type rating).  If you want to fly helo's, you want to go Navy (more opportunity). Jets...toss up there.  The flying is a blast off the boat (well except for "those" days).  If you want to fly a lot on your tour...seriously look at CVW-5 forward deployed in Japan.  Awesome living there (when we were actually home), but I flew a ton more than my CONUS squadron mates from training and we never ever worried about spare parts or flying hours. 

VMFA is on these boards....he can give you the USMC perspective....but I think (if I may be so bold to state a opinion) is that their aviation situation is pretty bleak/worn out (but there is nobody I would rather have in the CAS stack with me back in the day). 

Questions...hit me up.

Cheers

ATIS

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by ATIS
Kidney Stone meds for tomorrows surgery...thanks OIF/OEF.

[VMFA187]

2 hours ago, ATIS said:

VMFA is on these boards....he can give you the USMC perspective....but I think (if I may be so bold to state a opinion) is that their aviation situation is pretty bleak/worn out (but there is nobody I would rather have in the CAS stack with me back in the day). 

Questions...hit me up.

Cheers

ATIS

 

Judgesmails - What do you want to fly? What are your other goals? I'll assume your goal is to fly fighters, if not, you'd be best served looking for an opinion other than mine.

With that said, if I was in your position knowing what I currently do, I'd prioritize the ANG if at all possible. Quality of life is something you don't initially think about when you're young and all you can think about is strapping on a gray jet loaded with A/A and S/A munitions and delivering hate and discontent to the enemy. But it becomes hugely important when you've been deployed or on det 50% of a four year fleet tour. You can't beat quality of life with the ANG when you compare it to active service. Nearly all the benefits, with almost none of the massive downsides. And you have the added benefit of stepping into your first airplane knowing what you'll eventually be strapping on every day once you've earned those coveted wings.

Now, as for going active Air Force versus Navy - That's tough, and it goes back to my above questions. From my experience AF pilots are generally more proficient, all things being equal. This is for a multitude of reasons, some of which may not be entirely accurate as I have no direct experience operating within the Air Force. I believe the main reason this holds true is largely due to aircraft health - You'll likely fly more when you're not deployed in support of combat operations in the Air Force than you will in the Navy because their jets are better maintained, and there are significantly more of them. If you choose Navy, you'll also have to sacrifice more time than your Air Force peers on collateral duties. The benefit, which some see with that, is that you will have more opportunities for leadership experience, outside of the cockpit. This can be a double-edged sword. My priority was always to be as good in the jet as possible: But being responsible for the entire squadron's airframe divison of 35+ Marines with no actual maintenance training made it difficult to perform both duties adequately, let alone to excel at them. Now, that being said, there is nothing like getting launched from the boat and catching a wire once you return. But living on the boat, which I've never had to do for more than a week, likely completely counteracts that positive.

Bottom line, both are better than anything you can do in the civilian world. But if you want to be the absolute best in the jet that your capacity will allow, I'd go Air Force.

[Judgesmails]

On 8/1/2017 at 2:40 PM, tk1313 said:

Honest question: Why are you leaning Navy? I've been told the flying is different, but not necessarily less time spent in the air.

I like what the navy does. I like the culture. I like the aircraft. I like the missions. 

[HuggyU2]

Judgesmails,

I"m assuming you're "flyguy" on the other forum.  Good on you for asking there AND here.  That's smart.  

On the other forum, you stated the navy had better bases.  From a pilot perspective, I disagree.  But everyone has different tastes.  Since I"m assuming you are looking to go fixed wing, could you give examples of why you think that?  

You also state you like the "Navy culture" better.  Since you've never been in the military, how do you know the culture?  Maybe you were prior enlisted?

You like the Navy's shorter pilot commitment. For AF pilots, it is 10 years + 1 year of pilot training.  For Navy, I believe it is 8 years from your winging... but pilot training and the additional stuff the Navy puts you at about 10 years.  Is that significant to you?

You stated that the Navy "flies more impressive aircraft" than the USAF.  Again, I respect your opinion, but could you elaborate on that?  For me, the USAF has a much broader and unique collection of fixed-wing aircraft. 

[tk1313]

8 hours ago, Judgesmails said:

I like what the navy does. I like the culture. I like the aircraft. I like the missions. 

Could you elaborate? The first squadron I hung out with was a Navy squadron, and they did a very good job of convincing me that getting catapulted off a carrier to go bomb ISIS with them was about the most fun you could ever have in a cockpit. And yes, for the most part the bases are awesome if you want to be by the water. I don't know what mission(s) you're interested in, but if you're leaning Navy, I'm assuming some navy guys have been chewing your ear. Nothing wrong with that, but I would recommend visiting ANG/reserve units to get a glimpse of their culture before you make your decision. You may even get lucky and find a couple prior Navy/USMC aviators turned USAF pilot that can give you a way better analysis of the positives/negatives of both.

Edited August 3, 2017 by tk1313

[Judgesmails]

1 hour ago, tk1313 said:

Could you elaborate? The first squadron I hung out with was a Navy squadron, and they did a very good job of convincing me that getting catapulted off a carrier to go bomb ISIS with them was about the most fun you could ever have in a cockpit. And yes, for the most part the bases are awesome if you want to be by the water. I don't know what mission(s) you're interested in, but if you're leaning Navy, I'm assuming some navy guys have been chewing your ear. Nothing wrong with that, but I would recommend visiting ANG/reserve units to get a glimpse of their culture before you make your decision. You may even get lucky and find a couple prior Navy/USMC aviators turned USAF pilot that can give you a way better analysis of the positives/negatives of both.

It sounds to me like your trying to turn me away from the navy. Also, navy has been my first choice from the start, nobody has pushed me into it. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Judgesmails

[BashiChuni]

Well then go do it

[HuggyU2]

3 minutes ago, Judgesmails said:

It sounds to me like your trying to turn me away from the navy. Also, navy has been my first choice from the start, nobody has pushed me into it. 

No... k1313 is engaging in discourse with you.  That's what you want, is it not?  

And, yes, we understand navy is your first choice:  we are asking our questions to help understand why since your rationale seems to be founded on a loose foundation.   

Do you want us to state "Yes it appears you have thought this through thoroughly.  You should go navy." ?

Or do you want our input?

 

[Judgesmails]

37 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

No... k1313 is engaging in discourse with you.  That's what you want, is it not?  

And, yes, we understand navy is your first choice:  we are asking our questions to help understand why since your rationale seems to be founded on a loose foundation.   

Do you want us to state "Yes it appears you have thought this through thoroughly.  You should go navy." ?

Or do you want our input?

 

Yea I understand where you guys are coming. 

[Karl Hungus]

1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

No... k1313 is engaging in discourse with you.  That's what you want, is it not?  

And, yes, we understand navy is your first choice:  we are asking our questions to help understand why since your rationale seems to be founded on a loose foundation.   

Do you want us to state "Yes it appears you have thought this through thoroughly.  You should go navy." ?

Or do you want our input?

 

Sounds like Scoobs/Gilligan13 got bored and created yet another new login.

[VMFA187]

2 hours ago, Judgesmails said:

It sounds to me like your trying to turn me away from the navy. Also, navy has been my first choice from the start, nobody has pushed me into it. 

You're asking for advice from those who have experience that you don't have so that you can make the most well informed decision possible. I'd be cautious about how your statements are presented.

[tk1313]

6 hours ago, Judgesmails said:

It sounds to me like your trying to turn me away from the navy. Also, navy has been my first choice from the start, nobody has pushed me into it. 

No, not at all. I've just been fortunate enough to work with and meet pilots that have flown a vast array of aircraft (some of whom have flown for multiple services), and I'm just trying to pay forward any information that has helped me.

[Rycast]

Judgesmails: Speaking as someone who started studying/applying to boards 1.5 years ago and has yet to get picked up, I think you need to stop "considering applying" and start applying. Apply Navy, USMC, USAF, ANG - everything. Apply for pilot only, if you like. Take your best offer. In all likelihood, you'll have to apply more than once to get anything. I waited a little too long on the Navy and just hit the 27 year age limit, so don't make the same mistake.

That being said, a lot of the guys on this board are/were active duty pilots in the USAF, USMC, etc. - I'd take their opinions over your gut feelings. I too was initially more interested in the Navy, but the more I read, the more I realized USAF is probably a "better deal" if you just want to fly jets. And ANG is the "best deal."

When a USMC pilot like VMFA187 tells you that the Air Force generally has more proficient pilots and might fly more - as well as that prioritizing the ANG is a good idea - I think that should be enough to make you reconsider your preferences. Or at least, it should make you consider applying to multiple branches. After all, if you're like me, your initial preference might be based on what color of wings you get, the movie Top Gun, and that letter by Bob Norris that everyone has already read.

I just checked your profile and it looks like your 19 years old and don't have your bachelor's? In that case... apply as soon as you can, I guess. Time flies.

[SocialD]

ANG

[/thread]

[ATIS]

13 hours ago, tk1313 said:

I would recommend visiting ANG/reserve units to get a glimpse of their culture before you make your decision.

Excellent advice right there....most excellent. 

Cheers

ATIS

[HerkFE]

On 8/3/2017 at 1:07 PM, tk1313 said:

.... I would recommend visiting ANG/reserve units to get a glimpse of their culture before you make your decision. You may even get lucky and find a couple prior Navy/USMC aviators turned USAF pilot that can give you a way better analysis of the positives/negatives of both.

Just an old washed up E here but I'll throw in my two cents.....I started out in the Navy (spent 5.5 years), got out went ANG (spent 9 years), then went AFRES (another 9 years).  I grew up around the ANG (Dad was full time in the ANG). As a high school senior I signed up for the Navy despite the advice from those who had been there and "dun it". My mind was set and I asked questions, like you, but I was just looking for someone to agree with me. If you want to have a more rounded military career, go Navy. And by rounded, I mean doing other jobs besides flying. If you want to fly, have more control of your destiny, and have a decent QOL, hands down..... ANG or AFRES.

 I quoted tk1313 above because you are very likely to run into some vets of other services in an ANG/AFRES unit. There is a good reason for that:  They, especially the Navy, suck. Guys go there and realize that they should have listened to those who tried to tell them not to go there, they get out and go to the ANG/AFRES.  In my 23 years, I knew three people who left an AF component for another and all three were AF enlisted who got picked up to fly helos in the Army. It was their only shot at flying so they took it. I can't count high enough to say how many I know who left the Army/Navy/Marines/Coast Guard to cross over to the AF reserve component. Good luck in whichever path you choose.

Edited August 10, 2017 by HerkFE
fixed some words