Leaving the Air Force for Something Other than the Airlines

[Lord Ratner]

...Great info...
 

How hard are you working?

[ClearedHot]

22 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

How hard are you working?

Harder than someone flying the line at a major, but some of that is self-imposed.  I've never been afraid of hard work and my days in the WIC probably ruined me for life...

I am in the middle of a surge period, some of it is seasonal and they rest is being driven by tremendous growth of my company.  I have a three day weekend every other week but the last two months have been a LOT of travel.  I can see the slowdown on the horizon and we shut down for a week at Christmas, plus I have still have almost a month of vacation to use.  Working harder in the short-term was factored in to my calculus, work a bit harder for 3-5 years then be done, every person is different but I've seen to many people work until they are 65 and be physically unable to enjoy the fruits of their life-long labor.

 

[herkbum]

Are you guys growing in place or regionally?  Did you say it was defense related?

[olevelo]

As a SQ/CC, Grp/CC, Wg/CC...

Good info...unfortunately this right here makes your success story irrelevant to the 99% of us that don't have that experience/connections.

[HuggyU2]

1 hour ago, olevelo said:

Good info...unfortunately this right here makes your success story irrelevant to the 99% of us that don't have that experience/connections.

The only reason Cleared Hot made it to where he is is because of his rank and position.  It had nothing to do with his talent, drive, or personality.  Nor with his ability to think big.  Plus, it's not possible to network with others until you get command and/or O-6+.  

As someone who also never made SQ/CC, I recommend you give up and accept something less.  

Edited September 3, 2017 by HuggyU2

[nsplayr]

2 hours ago, olevelo said:

Good info...unfortunately this right here makes your success story irrelevant to the 99% of us that don't have that experience/connections.

I was hoping someone would reply to this effect. I left AD 3 years ago and work at the same place where CH now works in additional to my guard gig.

Good company many mil folks would recognize, great work culture at our particular division (many retired/former mil), lots of growth right now as he said. We're in the defense/tech industry and located in a city I love with some folks working elsewhere in a couple of mostly desirable locations. I do mostly 40 hour weeks with some surge as needed and about 25% travel +/- 15% depending on the time of year and other business factors. I take home IVO what I did as a flying O3 > 8 years give or take.

As others have mentioned, unless you're a fed or work at the airlines pay can vary quite a bit even for people doing the same job based on background, prior salaries and negotiation skills so it's not real smart to be more specific with dollar amounts. Protip: don't under-sell yourself and make sure you look at net rather than gross, because a higher gross salary as a civilian will not always give you a higher net after you factor in healthcare and different tax treatment.

I was a CSO so no airlines for me. BA/MA in International Studies with a good reputation in my community and some valuable connections, but nothing special in terms of AF paperwork i.e. I was never the XX/CC of anything.

CH is indeed playing about 3 levels up from where I am, but his background and responsibilities at the company warrant that. Retiring as an O6 is not a requirement to work where we work, and if anything the ideal person is an E6-O4 with a background in one of the following: computer science, building/troubleshooting networks, radios and sensors, or government IT/IA/security or acquisitions.

Fair disclosure, two high-up company leaders (one of whom is my direct boss) flew the same airplane that I did on AD and knew me through the bro network if not directly. I got in touch, they needed someone for a job I could do and I was getting out right at about the same time so things worked out. I can't say that's exactly a repeatable process but I guess the keys for me were: A) be the best XX you can be and work well with others so when people bro-check you, you get two thumbs up, and B) be willing to relocate and learn new things as required. I did get a few hits on other positions (full-time guard, D.C. agencies, etc.), but this was the best choice all things considered.

If anyone is technically inclined and especially if you flew the U-28, MC-12W, AC-130W or AC-130J, PM me and I'm happy to make intros for good dudes.

Edited September 3, 2017 by nsplayr

[olevelo]

The only reason Cleared Hot made it to where he is is because of his rank and position.  It had nothing to do with his talent, drive, or personality.  Nor with his ability to think big.  Plus, it's not possible to network with others until you get command and/or O-6+.  
As someone who also never made SQ/CC, I recommend you give up and accept something less.  

My point was some of the specifics about that position (high responsibility, ability to work from home, salary, etc) more than likely have a direct correlation with his previous positions. I have no doubt that his intangibles also had a direct correlation with him getting those CC positions as well.

The point is that the O-3/4 separating today has probably a 5% chance of landing a position similar to what an O-6 is able to land, barring extreme circumstances. Talking management here of course.

Again, not taking anything away from what he said, and his details are much appreciated.

[ClearedHot]

It was meant to serve as an example an if you believe you have a 95% chance of failure, you will likely fail.

For the record, my BOSS separated a few years ago as an O-3.

[Pancake]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

It was meant to serve as an example an if you believe you have a 95% chance of failure, you will likely fail.

For the record, my BOSS separated a few years ago as an O-3.

What did your boss do for n the AF?

[Marco]

43 minutes ago, Pancake said:

What did your boss do for n the AF?

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Pancake]

Nothing. Just thought I'd ask.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Pancake

[nsplayr]

Questions retracted, answer retracted.

Edited September 5, 2017 by nsplayr

[SocialD]

On 9/1/2017 at 8:57 PM, HuggyU2 said:

Pancake, 

Finally, you can do another job AS an airline pilot.  I met a jumpseater that was furloughed for 9 years, and went and got a law degree.  He does wills, trusts, and that sort of thing on layovers.  In my case, I am doing a plethora of odd, part-time jobs that are "satisfying".  

This!  I've flown with a decent amount of guys that have side jobs.  Most of them started/built their side gig when they were widebody first officers.  Working 9-12 days/month, for a full months pay, lends itself well to pursing side gigs.  Many of them would drop a trip or two a month, but kept the job as an "insurance policy."  One went to Wharton and worked for McKinsey while he was furloughed.  I've seen lawyers, business consultants, auditors, CPA, CFP/CFA, defense contractors and a few other random business owners.  One of our 747 Captains is even an Executive for Flight Safety International.     

[schokie]

So if folks don't feel comfortable sharing specifics of job options, can they shed light on the hiring process? 

Networking? If so, informal-I-know-a-guy or some sort if networking function? Recruiter? Random resume blasting? 

If my plan is to stay in the RegAF for 3-5 more years as line flyer, what can I do now to prep myself? I realize that's a fairly open-ended question, but what would maximize my options? MBA? PMP? 6-Sigma? 

[old crow]

1 hour ago, schokie said:

Networking? If so, informal-I-know-a-guy or some sort if networking function? Recruiter? Random resume blasting? 

If my plan is to stay in the RegAF for 3-5 more years as line flyer, what can I do now to prep myself? I realize that's a fairly open-ended question, but what would maximize my options? MBA? PMP? 6-Sigma? 

Networking...I got nuthin special to recommend.  LinkedIn can help, but it all boils down to who you know.  Former colleagues, people from the gym, school, church, Grinder, etc.  Don't be afraid to reach out

Recruiters.  Yup...use them as best you can.  I've gotten great offers/opportunities from corporate recruiters reaching out to me on LinkedIn.  Pimp your LinkedIn account and remember that it is NOT Facebook.

Random resume blasting.  Not much success for me.  

Prep Yourself: 

1.  Start early.  I started a year before retirement (and did it half-assed) and I was way behind the curve.

2.  PMP is useful.  Don't just think passing the test will be enough to get hired.  PMP will help you stand out, but it's not a magic bullet.  I was able to work "Project/Program Manager" into my last two OPRs to help demonstrate tangible examples.  

3.  Six Sigma/Lean.  Depends.  Since retirement I've worked in production for Amazon and in non-defense manufacturing.  Six Sigma was useful in getting both of those jobs (more than PMP).  I went with Villanova to get my Green Belt just so there was a legit school/organization behind the training.  I don't see the value in getting a Black Belt for my current/future job.

4.  STAR format interviews.  Learn how to answer questions in STAR format and practice often.  Part of the issue(s) I've seen interviewing veterans is translating what they did in the military into "civilian speak".  Lose the acronyms and tell me about metrics.  I highly recommend the book "How to Interview like a Top MBA" for examples.

5.  Metrics.  I wish I had a better knowledge of Excel and data manipulation/visualization.  If I could go back in time, I'd work on getting super smart on Excel (macros, pivot tables, slicers, dashboards, etc).  In my civ experience, metrics win battles and wars.  No one gives a shit about my Powerpoint Ranger skills.

[Day Man]

Networking is far and away the best thing you can do for yourself. You can put all the bullets you want on your resume/LI page,  but having someone who can personally vouch for you is priceless.

BTW, mil/vets are eligible for a year of free premium LI...I have more LI tips if anyone if interested.

[schokie]

2 hours ago, Day Man said:

Networking is far and away the best thing you can do for yourself. You can put all the bullets you want on your resume/LI page,  but having someone who can personally vouch for you is priceless.

BTW, mil/vets are eligible for a year of free premium LI...I have more LI tips if anyone if interested.

What tips do you have to actively use LI? I feel like I done more than the bare minimum with an actual resume, work history, and actual real professional photo. But the page just sits there passively. What am I missing out on?

 

5.  Metrics.  I wish I had a better knowledge of Excel and data manipulation/visualization.  If I could go back in time, I'd work on getting super smart on Excel (macros, pivot tables, slicers, dashboards, etc).  In my civ experience, metrics win battles and wars.  No one gives a shit about my Powerpoint Ranger skills.

You mean those hours I spent mastering the perfect slide transition are wasted? Perhaps the real key is to work in MX P&S. 

[Day Man]

10 hours ago, schokie said:

What tips do you have to actively use LI? I feel like I done more than the bare minimum with an actual resume, work history, and actual real professional photo. But the page just sits there passively. What am I missing out on?

- Get a nice, professional picture. No uniform shots, selfies, other people, etc. Smile.

- Your title should be relevant to your desired (civilian) role, not Flight Commander, Director of Staff, etc. Eliminate any military jargon/words you can throughout

- Customize your LI URL (linked.com/pete.mitchell vs linked.com/8723gl431gbf9o718345*#kj3214)

- Quantify your accomplishments in your positions...OPR/EPR bullets have great info, just make sure it's translated to civilian-speak

- Personalize connection requests if you don't know the target

 

There's a lot of info out there (just google 'LinkedIn tips")...let me know if you have any other questions.

[ClearedHot]

Networking starts with what type of Bro you were on active duty.  I am FAR from perfect but always tried to take care of everyone around me and be a team player.  I mentored and helped people whether they were career types of one tour and out.  In short, I did my best not to be a douche.

When I dropped my papers I told a few folks who put the word out for me. 

My suggestion would be to call your friends, tell them you are getting out and ask for input.  You will be shocked at the positions that are out there and word of mouth and reputation drives the key jobs.

[MilitaryToFinance]

I'll chime in with my thoughts although I think my specific experience is probably less relevant. I'm happy to give details on my career and path here but I can count on both hands the number of veterans I know in my entire industry so it might not be that helpful. 

That said I have some general thoughts on civilian life. First, I think it's worth saying that when it comes to the trade off between pay and work/life balance the airlines are really hard to beat. That doesn't make it the right answer but it is worth keeping in mind. All of my peers who make decent six figure paychecks work 10-12 hours a day and many either travel a lot or work weekends. If a company offers free breakfast and dinner as a perk it isn't because they are nice, it's because they expect you to be at the office before breakfast and still working after dinner. I chose money over balance but it was an explicut choice that I knew I was making up front.

If you are getting out after your commitment, not retiring at 20, both consulting and investment banking love military vets. They tend to hire young so I'm not sure they are viable options after a full career. Investment banking is a brutal grind but if you don't mind the hours it is pretty much a guarantee you'll make $300-$500k mid-career with the possibility of much more if you make Managing Director. The hiring cycle is fairly standardized and there are a number of groups/programs targeting vets. Vets on Wall Street is a good one, I also second whoever recommended ACP. I didn't get my job through them but they paired me with a great mentor who introduced me to lots of his contracts. Goldman Sachs has a veterans internship program each year and if you aren't a screwup you will get an offer for a fulltime job.

Consulting is good because it opens up options if you don't really know what you want to do. Most people who start at the big firms, McKinsey/Bain/BCG are the favorites, only stay for 3 or 4 years. After that you will have worked on 5 or 6 projects with different companies in different industries and you'll have a good idea what's out there. If the consulting lifestyle isn't for you it's very easy to transition to a management role at one of the companies you consulted with. If you have a family this is a tough path because consultants are the people keeping the airlines in business.  Normal month will have you on the road Mon-Thur 3 weeks a month.

[matmacwc]

Even the Goldman Sachs Elevator (GSE, google it for hours of entertainment) guy makes a comment that late bloomers aren't really welcome, unless you were military. Specifically he says fighter pilot, but you get the idea.

[nsplayr]

The book by the GSE Elevator guy is really hilarious, highly recommend.

[Flaco]

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:40 PM, matmacwc said:

Even the Goldman Sachs Elevator (GSE, google it for hours of entertainment) guy makes a comment that late bloomers aren't really welcome, unless you were military. Specifically he says fighter pilot, but you get the idea.

 

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:20 PM, nsplayr said:

The book by the GSE Elevator guy is really hilarious, highly recommend.

Thanks for point out, I haven't laughed that hard in a while. I thought this was one of the best quotes:

"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools."

He didn't credit the source, so I had to look it up. Go figure, a fighter pilot said it...

Sir Douglas Bader, a WWII RAF ace. It is also sometimes attributed to Harry Day, also of the RAF.

More importantly, I wish we had leaders who understood this quote.

 

[bfargin]

It would take a little time and commitment to get your PhD but the life of an academic is pretty nice. I didn't have the option to do the airline gig when I got out of the AF and to be honest I wasn't sure what was in store for me. I ended up going to Vandy and getting my MBA and then working in industry for four years before I decided sitting in an office all day was not my cup of tea. I then decided to go to Pitt and get my PhD (business with emphasis in information systems and telecommunications) and haven't looked back. If accepted to a decent PhD program, you will receive free tuition and a living stipend. The stipend isn't much but is usually in the $1500 to $1800 a month range. If you have the GI bill available, it would probably be livable for the 3 to 4 years you are on campus.

If you choose a business discipline your pay will start minimally in the low 100,000 range, even at regional state universities. Most other disciplines (even engineering) pays lower than the main business disciplines of accounting, management, information systems(including analytics), economics, finance, marketing, etc. So, you won't become super wealthy, but the work life balance is outstanding and the pay is very livable. I chose to move back home to middle TN where the cost of living is pretty low and weather is mild. Even with the research requirements of academia there is little work related pressure (I am at a regional state school and not a top tier research university) and plenty of time to pursue outside interests. At a top research school there is more pressure to publish at top rated journals so the stress levels would be higher. If you are willing to spend the 4 years earning your PhD it is a great gig and while college students at times will drive you crazy, they also keep you challenged and motivated to not lag behind on current events and current technology.

[Kenny Powers]

So what if you don't want to go to the airlines or get a PhD, want to be home every night, and don't want to work 16 hours a day? Fighter type with engineering degree/experience.