Leaving the Air Force for Something Other than the Airlines

[Jaded]

6 hours ago, di1630 said:

Just wondering if I’ll go to the airlines and miss out on family events to have money to buy stuff I don’t need or die with a ton of money in the bank.

I don’t want to be the richest man in the cemetery but I want some security. Must of all though I don’t want to miss out on my kids while I’m stuck in the Middle East or on layover.
 

There are QOL options at the airlines too. A lot of people talk about living in domicile, but you could always just drop a percentage of your schedule each month. If, say, 12 days a month netted you 180k, you could drop 1/3 of your schedule, work 8 days a month, and still make $120k. 

[hindsight2020]

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

There are QOL options at the airlines too. A lot of people talk about living in domicile, but you could always just drop a percentage of your schedule each month. If, say, 12 days a month netted you 180k, you could drop 1/3 of your schedule, work 8 days a month, and still make $120k. 

...said no Southwest pilot ever.

I keed I keed. Kinda.

[SocialD]

18 hours ago, Jaded said:

There are QOL options at the airlines too. A lot of people talk about living in domicile, but you could always just drop a percentage of your schedule each month. If, say, 12 days a month netted you 180k, you could drop 1/3 of your schedule, work 8 days a month, and still make $120k. 

While there are many months that I take full advantage of this, realize that not all airlines have this capability.  Even at Delta, your category needs to be staffed properly (enough reserves), or someone willing to take your trips, for you to just drop trips.  I think both AAL/UAL have a limits on what you can drop down to...50 hours maybe?  I think at UPS someone has to take the trip from your line.  

That said, I've dropped my entire schedule every month this summer and picked up what trips I wanted.  I've even already dropped my entire August schedule.  This wasn't always an option on the 73, though I could almost always get rid of a trip or two.  

DI360....if noone has told you about options other than flying for an airline, there are a decent amount of opportunities out there.  Admittedly, you have to live in base for them to be a great deal, but there are lots of jobs that will keep you home almost every night.  Assistant chief pilots, duty pilot, sim instructor, project pilot, etc...  We have dudes in all of these positions with as low as 2 years on property.  Unlike other airlines, our duty pilot (think super SOF) is a FO position...whereas I believe UAL it's a Captain.  You'll work more days than the average line pilot, but most are home every night, minus maybe a 2 or 3 day trip every month.  Unfortunately for Delta, the majority of them are in ATL, so hopefully you like humidity, waffles house and sweet tea.  On the upside, they all pay extremely well.  

Either way, best of luck finding what you're looking for.  

[Mustache Sally]

On July 18, 2018 at 5:57 PM, guineapigfury said:

Assuming you mean defense contractor, I have.  What do you want to know?

I have a good idea of what it takes to get hired by the airlines and what the job is like once you're hired.  As cragspider mentioned, having military RPA experience helps.  Any additional info on the hiring process would be helpful. I'm also curious about why you chose RPAs over the airlines, your typical schedule, likes/dislikes about the job, etc. I just don't know what to expect. 

[SFG]

50 minutes ago, Mustache Sally said:

I have a good idea of what it takes to get hired by the airlines and what the job is like once you're hired.  As cragspider mentioned, having military RPA experience helps.  

Uhm...

[guineapigfury]

You'll need a current passport and an FAA class 2 medical or better.  I emailed in my most recent form 8, ITS, IDS & FHR and that was pretty much it for records.  Clearance requirements are going to vary.  Most places, but not all, require a commercial pilot's license.  I chose deployed LR because I was current and qualed in the MQ-9 and hadn't flown a manned aircraft in years.  Plus this pays better.  Most companies ask for 3-4 month deployments, and there are often opportunities to extend or quick turn.  There's a lot of turnover.  While deployed, I work a normal 9ish hour shift with a reasonable amount of downtime between flights.  7 days a week sucks, but you get used to it. 

[Buddy Spike]

On 7/23/2018 at 5:19 AM, SocialD said:

While there are many months that I take full advantage of this, realize that not all airlines have this capability.  Even at Delta, your category needs to be staffed properly (enough reserves), or someone willing to take your trips, for you to just drop trips.  I think both AAL/UAL have a limits on what you can drop down to...50 hours maybe?  I think at UPS someone has to take the trip from your line.  

That said, I've dropped my entire schedule every month this summer and picked up what trips I wanted.  I've even already dropped my entire August schedule.  This wasn't always an option on the 73, though I could almost always get rid of a trip or two.  

DI360....if noone has told you about options other than flying for an airline, there are a decent amount of opportunities out there.  Admittedly, you have to live in base for them to be a great deal, but there are lots of jobs that will keep you home almost every night.  Assistant chief pilots, duty pilot, sim instructor, project pilot, etc...  We have dudes in all of these positions with as low as 2 years on property.  Unlike other airlines, our duty pilot (think super SOF) is a FO position...whereas I believe UAL it's a Captain.  You'll work more days than the average line pilot, but most are home every night, minus maybe a 2 or 3 day trip every month.  Unfortunately for Delta, the majority of them are in ATL, so hopefully you like humidity, waffles house and sweet tea.  On the upside, they all pay extremely well.  

Either way, best of luck finding what you're looking for.  

AA has no minimum limit.  The problem now is this thing called "red/redder" that basically makes trips impossible to drop/trade.  Huge QOL issue.

[HU&W]

On 7/21/2018 at 2:28 PM, di1630 said:

Hypothetically, if you were debt free, kids college funded, decent investment balance with a military retirement, what would be your annual net income number you’d feel comfortable leaving the workforce entirely for just to pursue your hobbies?

Half tempted to downgrade my qol after retirement to go fully debt free (including house) so my hobbies and the work I do to generate revenue can be the same thing.

[Tanker 78]

Here’s a non airline flying job to consider:  https://www.calfirepilots.com.  I Left AD three years ago for DynCorp Intl. which provides pilots to fly CALFIRE aircraft.  Flew the OV-10A for 2 years then upgraded to the S-2T.  Love it!  Still fly single seat.  Still fly tactical.  Still helping out the guys on the ground.  Absolutely no BS or queep of any kind.  The Bobs should be hiring 10-12 folks soon.  If you’re interested, go to the website, do what it says, and if you have ever flown an attack or multi-role jet, you’re hired.

Some details:

Right now, during the fire season, the schedule is 6 days on, 1 day off.  That’s about to change to a 12 on 6 off (hence the 10-12 new guys).  Enjoy all winter off.

Expect to spend ~1 season in the OV-10 before starting Tanker training in the S-2T.

Your fire season length is determined by where you are based: NorCal - 4-5 months, Central Ca - 6-7 months, SoCal 8 months to year round.  

you are paid by the day so how much you take home is determined by where you are based.  My first year in the OV-10 in Central Ca grossed $136k.  S-2T drivers make more.  I’ll bring home and easy $200k this year on a SoCal contract.

Base assignments are based on seniority.  

Typical day in the life - show up around 0930.  Mass brief around ten.  Free time while waiting for lunch around 12.  Free time until cutoff (half hour before sunset) unless interrupted by a fire dispatch or two.

Call Porterville Air Attack base if you’d like to chat.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OWm5mt5Qits

 

[Shaft34]

I agree dude! 

Great job, cool mission, and good group of pilots. Not for everyone, but if you’re interested hit up 78 or myself.

This probably isn’t the right fit for someone building spreadsheets comparing pay at different majors. When it gets busy it is hard work, rewarding, but demanding none the less. 

I’m hearing they may be resume sorting next week, so anyone SERIOUSLY interested get in touch ASAP. Need availability in early Spring ‘19. Tactical flying and some multi time are pluses, even better if turboprop.

Shaft

Edited November 4, 2018 by Shaft34

[Tonka]

I wish Ohio had wildfires.

[jice]

9 hours ago, Shaft34 said:

 

Shaft

 

Is the job commutable in any sense? Any folks live out of town in the off-season and in the area during fire season?

[Shaft34]

25 minutes ago, jice said:

Is the job commutable in any sense? Any folks live out of town in the off-season and in the area during fire season?

I live in Idaho and fly in CA for about 5 months each year. The current 6/1 schedule is a drag, but being home 24/7 for 6-7 months is nice too. That’s about 140 work days per year. The planned 12/6 schedule will be much better for people living out of state, which is actually a main reason we are moving in that direction. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Shaft34

[soupafly06]

What kind of hours are we talking about to qualify for air attack?  Considering the mission set and that Cal ANG performs the mission at times, would RPA time be of any benefit assuming one meets all other minimums?

[DirkDiggler]

Would a career MC-130 guy be competitive in the application process or are they really looking for previous fast jet/attack experience?

[herkbier]

Seems like an awesome mission. Also interested in the MC-130 question.. although I’m just a slick pilot with two years on my ADSC..

[Tanker 78]

2 hours ago, soupafly06 said:

What kind of hours are we talking about to qualify for air attack?  Considering the mission set and that Cal ANG performs the mission at times, would RPA time be of any benefit assuming one meets all other minimums?

Minimums are listed at calfirepilots.com. RPA experience would only be helpful if it was over wildfires if at all.

 

[Tanker 78]

2 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

Would a career MC-130 guy be competitive in the application process or are they really looking for previous fast jet/attack experience?

I'm not on the committee but I'd think a career MC-130 guy would be super competitive - Especially now that we're getting C-130's.  Couldn't think of a better way to amass tactical low level time than a MC-130 career myself.

https://www.kcra.com/article/water-rescue-aircraft-about-to-join-cal-fire-fleet/22560064

[matmacwc]

On 11/2/2018 at 11:37 PM, Tanker 78 said:

Here’s a non airline flying job to consider:  https://www.calfirepilots.com.  I Left AD three years ago for DynCorp Intl. which provides pilots to fly CALFIRE aircraft.  Flew the OV-10A for 2 years then upgraded to the S-2T.  Love it!  Still fly single seat.  Still fly tactical.  Still helping out the guys on the ground.  Absolutely no BS or queep of any kind.  The Bobs should be hiring 10-12 folks soon.  If you’re interested, go to the website, do what it says, and if you have ever flown an attack or multi-role jet, you’re hired.

Some details:

Right now, during the fire season, the schedule is 6 days on, 1 day off.  That’s about to change to a 12 on 6 off (hence the 10-12 new guys).  Enjoy all winter off.

Expect to spend ~1 season in the OV-10 before starting Tanker training in the S-2T.

Your fire season length is determined by where you are based: NorCal - 4-5 months, Central Ca - 6-7 months, SoCal 8 months to year round.  

you are paid by the day so how much you take home is determined by where you are based.  My first year in the OV-10 in Central Ca grossed $136k.  S-2T drivers make more.  I’ll bring home and easy $200k this year on a SoCal contract.

Base assignments are based on seniority.  

Typical day in the life - show up around 0930.  Mass brief around ten.  Free time while waiting for lunch around 12.  Free time until cutoff (half hour before sunset) unless interrupted by a fire dispatch or two.

Call Porterville Air Attack base if you’d like to chat.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OWm5mt5Qits

 

Flying class medical?

And how is the Mclleland seniority?

Edited November 5, 2018 by matmacwc

[Tanker 78]

3 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

Flying class medical?

And how is the Mclleland seniority?

Class 2 w/EKG if over 40.

At the moment the only aircraft is an OV-10 with an Aerial Supervision Module (ASM) qualed pilot.  ASM is a serious upgrade and we don't have an in-house ASM training program so only someone crossing over from the BLM or forest service could fly that OV-10.  I imagine that a C-130 or two will be based there.  Jury's out on how senior you'd have to be to get a C-130 at KMCC.  Senior I'm guessing?

[Shaft34]

Here is a break down of the previously advertised times for the CalFire job

Air Tactical Pilot – minimum PILOT-IN-COMMAND experience:

Airplane . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1800

Airplane-Multi-Engine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .800

Of which AME: may include no more than non-centerline thrust . . . . . . . 400

Mountain (typical terrain) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 200

Instrument (total) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  75

Instrument (actual) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50

Night . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100  

One or more of the following:

Aerial firefighting (PIC or Co-Pilot). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . 500

AME >6,000# . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  . 100

AME >12,500# . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50

AME Turbine powered. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  . 50

 

That should give you an idea if you're qualified or not. Need a Commercial AMEL and 2nd Class (w/ EKG if over 40).  Note that this is PIC time and not total times. I don't think these are hard minimums, but that would be individual dependent.

Talking with the guys who make the decisions, it seems as if they're most interested in pilots who want to be Tanker pilots and have a broad flying background that will enable a smooth transition to flying twin engine turboprops in a challenging environment. For example, I spent about an equal 5 years of my 15 years AD in 3 airframes (T-37/F-16/U-2) and an additional 3 years flying a King Air 200 on fires and charter. I'd say each experience has provided me a solid foundation for learning to fly the S-2 as an air tanker. It's a combination of flying a heavy twin in a dynamic CAS event like it is a low and slow backcountry plane. A tactical background is a huge plus and really helps dealing with the Fire Traffic Area and environment, it's sort of like a CAS stack. Lots of visual talk on's for a drop. So, if you have the interest, think you have the flying skills, and want to do an awesome mission...this is the job for you!

[Shaft34]

On 11/4/2018 at 10:48 AM, soupafly06 said:

What kind of hours are we talking about to qualify for air attack?  Considering the mission set and that Cal ANG performs the mission at times, would RPA time be of any benefit assuming one meets all other minimums?

See my post above regarding hours.

I wanted to address the mention of the ANG performing the fire mission. The ANG does operate up to 6 (I think) C-130 MAFFS units when called upon during the fire season on a nation wide basis. The MAFFS is a roll on system that holds 3000 gal of retardant. It uses pressurized air to force the retardant out through a nozzle placed in the aft/left door. All the other tankers on the line (except the 747) use a gravity fed, continuous flow drop system, so there are some differences in drop pattern.

The main difference is the level of certification between the MAFFS crews and your typical Tanker crew. All CalFire and most Federal contract tankers have Captains that are carded for Initial Attack (IA). This allows a captain to size up a fire, talk to ground resources, and potentially drop without any other aerial supervision over the incident. The MAFFS and VLATS (DC-10s/747) are not IA carded and require not only aerial supervision, but also a Lead Plane to drop.

This is not intended to be critical, just pointing out the differences in case anyone was curious. Our program at CalFire is very focused on the Initial Attack part of fighting fire. The airplanes are dispatched like fire engines at the first smoke report. It's an aggressive and rewarding way to fight fire.

NOTE: If any MAFFS pilot sees any errors in my post, please contact me and I'll change it. Just going by what I've learned talking to MAFFS guys.

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Shaft34

[HuggyU2]

Shaft showed me around the airplane earlier this year at an airshow he was at.  I was impressed at how clean they were. 

Sure looks like a great gig for someone that loves flying a tough mission and doing something very rewarding.  

[matmacwc]

Seems like a hell of a cool job in a great locations, wish I could get the medical.  Of course that's from an old fighter pilot from Lodi.  

[Shaft34]

Here's an article and video The Union paper in Grass Valley did on the Air Attack Base located at the Nevada County Airport. Jake, the Battalion Chief there, talks about the program and fighting fire a bit. It also shows the loading pits and retardant reloading during a fire in the area.

https://www.theunion.com/news/local-news/guardians-of-grass-valley-air-attack-firefighters-keep-nevada-county-and-beyond-safe-from-wildfire-video-photo-gallery/?fbclid=IwAR1bgRm3gVZRpUHQVvVUE2tTe4ohFvqLYCz7FNFl-Y0asCXQhrBUhuyMKCM

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Shaft34