1,000 Retired Pilots Can Be Recalled to Active Duty

[ClearedHot]

39 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

The AF is short 1,920 pilots, which equates to a loss of $10 billion. So by my simple math, that roughly equates to $5 million per aviator. Doesn't a bonus of $100,000 a year make more sense and still allows the AF to get off at a rate of $1 million vs $5 million if qualified dudes were to accept a 10 year contract after their initial contract is up?

 

STOP trying to use logic.

[VMFA187]

17 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

STOP trying to use logic.

Aye aye, Sir.

[Karl Hungus]

59 minutes ago, Guardian said:

But according to that article they already dramatically increased pilot retention bonuses.

... to a level that didn’t even correct for inflation since 1999.

[Karl Hungus]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Stop Loss Cometh...

I wish more of your management buddies would participate on these forums.  Would be interesting to see how delusional and out of touch they really are.  Or, more likely, how much they really don’t give a shit, as it’ll be someone else’s problem after they leave.  

Sort of like how the Liquids and Learjetters don’t really participate anymore.

[xaarman]

Wasn't Liquid an obscenely busy AFSOC GO? I don't know Learjetter's background.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Those in charge do not see this as a problem they can fix. They will pay it lip service until the hiring wave slows, things will get back to the way they were, and they will declare success. We are Officers first and Pilots second, remember?

 

edit: Second prediction: Return of Boots on the ramp policy, especially if sequestration returns.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by xaarman

[viper154]

2 hours ago, HU&W said:

I'll be that idiot.  Enlisted RPA pilots would be the solution to return EVERY medically qualified 11U to a manned cockpit, with the 18X RPA only pilots taking on a leadership/supervision role.  It's not a 100% solution, but it would help.

Current pay for a RPA qualified pilot at my deployed location is $1500+  a day. I’m licking my chops at that as a prior manned Capt, what do you think some airman that qualifies for food stamps is going to do when their 4/6 commitment is up. Retnention will be right back in the shitter. 

When the word gets out that being enlisted pilot means all the responsibility and none of the pay the pool applicants is going to drop. I’ve been driving drones for 2.5 years now, have yet to meet a sensor that would be a pilot without  the Officer raise. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by viper154

[ClearedHot]

54 minutes ago, Karl Hungus said:

I wish more of your management buddies would participate on these forums.  Would be interesting to see how delusional and out of touch they really are.  Or, more likely, how much they really don’t give a shit, as it’ll be someone else’s problem after they leave.  

Sort of like how the Liquids and Learjetters don’t really participate anymore.

Management buddies?

Liquid is a good dude, he has been promoted again and I think his job and circumstances keep him away from this forum...I am assuming.   We are friends but I don't discuss this place with him.

As for other senior folks, I wish I had a better answer.  I am admittedly disillusioned having run in those circles and I am truly sad to say many are sycophants that could care less what you post on here because they believe alternate realities and nothing you can say (even the facts), will convince them otherwise.  When you try to tell the MAJCOM/CC there is a retention train wreck coming and his response is "they will stay because they are patriots"...you reply, but sir they have done their duty over and OVER again...then he replies "fuck them, we will just make more."  Some of these assholes made it worse out of pure malice...one in particular REALLY fucked some good people over and they got out.  One dude had a life-long dream to fly the B-2, the now 2-star select refused on principle (our manning would have allowed it), so a Great pilot bailed.  The same guy then stopped another guy from going to TPS (another life-long dream), because he was a CV-22 flight lead and we were short...so they guy got out and now flies for Delta. 

Much of our senior leadership is septic...the only reason they are pretending to care is because we are indeed 1920 pilots short and it is only going to get worse...MUCH worse.

[RTB]

15 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

if its the same 2 star select im thinking it is you're spot on....total narcissist and extremely toxic...shit his underling might be just as toxic

How do these people still keep progressing when everyone can see how bad they are?  Rhetorical question but it drives me crazy. So many good leaders forced out along the way. 

[Guest]

How do these people still keep progressing when everyone can see how bad they are?  Rhetorical question but it drives me crazy. So many good leaders forced out along the way. 

Because the good guys leave to pursue better options.

[Duck]

How many for cyber?  We're having our own retention issues, and to get the cool training you incur a significant ADSC.  We've also got our own devil's-money bonus.  So I wonder what the pull in is given the drops announced in the other thread.
 
We just finished our Vet day activities, and the number of people excited to celebrate being out was interesting.  Not a lot of the nostalgia I saw from vets when I first joined.  Though, I'm older and could be jaded.

3 kids for cyber, 2 Medical, 1 intel, 1 intel/pilot maybe?, 1 Special Tactics and only 1 with dedicated dreams of being a pilot.

Oh and 1 who just wanted a free education.

[RTB]

49 minutes ago, ihtfp06 said:

Because the good guys leave to pursue better options.

Like I said, it was a rhetorical question.  This board is filled with stories of the good guys leaving for greener pastures, and for good reason.  That said, even with good guys leaving, I would understand if the "Best of what's Left" got picked for leadership, but even that isn't happening in many instances.  In some cases absolute total dicks and douchebags are put in command over much more qualified leaders.  I know lots of good guys still trying to get the job done but Big Blue refuses to accept that they're good choices for leadership.  They haven't been properly groomed from the O-3 level so their pedigree isn't good enough.  Sad. 

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

4 hours ago, VMFA187 said:

The AF is short 1,920 pilots, which equates to a loss of $10 billion. So by my simple math, that roughly equates to $5 million per aviator. Doesn't a bonus of $100,000 a year make more sense and still allows the AF to get off at a rate of $1 million vs $5 million if qualified dudes were to accept a 10 year contract after their initial contract is up?

 

EEEhhhhhhh, this is OPR math at best.  Too many variables to nail down "if we pay them X we save Y in the long run".  I'm sure everyone has a certain dollar figure at which they would say "yes" but in typical AF fashion they think they can buy their way out of a problem they don't even have the financial resources to.  Furthermore, until the root causes are addressed (the won't be) nothing will change.  The thing that REALLY pushes people out are largely out of the AF's control anyway, particularly incessant pointless deployments, incessant PCS, and flying oldass broke-dick airplanes as a hobby while being rode hard and put up wet doing stupid shit.

[tac airlifter]

20 minutes ago, Napoleon_Tanerite said:

 The thing that REALLY pushes people out are largely out of the AF's control anyway

I completely disagree.

[Karl Hungus]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Liquid is a good dude, he has been promoted again and I think his job and circumstances keep him away from this forum

I’d imagine he’s pretty busy giving out no-notice ground evals to every pilot he comes across.  That’s gotta take up a ton of his time these days.  Can you believe he actually said that nonsense?  

Liquid doesn’t think you should talk about airlines at work, or else he will no-notice ground eval you

“We should not tolerate talk and actions related to post-service employment at work. Do the f*ing job you are paid to do and plan for your post-service job on your own time. Stop the airline conversations in the pilot shop and make sure people are earning their damn paychecks.

When I was a Captain and encountered pilots chatting about their airline prep in the pilot office, I would give them a no-notice ground eval to check their systems knowledge and combat readiness. It was amazing how fast that reduced the around time and set the standard that we actually focused on at work. Remember, while you are planning your next career, there are plenty of other people in the squadron that will be there for a long time and could actually benefit from your experience more than hearing the details of how and why you are separating.”

 

Not at all surprising he got promoted.  Management at its finest.

[ClearedHot]

29 minutes ago, Karl Hungus said:

I’d imagine he’s pretty busy giving out no-notice ground evals to every pilot he comes across.  That’s gotta take up a ton of his time these days.  Can you believe he actually said that nonsense?  

Liquid doesn’t think you should talk about airlines at work, or else he will no-notice ground eval you

“We should not tolerate talk and actions related to post-service employment at work. Do the f*ing job you are paid to do and plan for your post-service job on your own time. Stop the airline conversations in the pilot shop and make sure people are earning their damn paychecks.

When I was a Captain and encountered pilots chatting about their airline prep in the pilot office, I would give them a no-notice ground eval to check their systems knowledge and combat readiness. It was amazing how fast that reduced the around time and set the standard that we actually focused on at work. Remember, while you are planning your next career, there are plenty of other people in the squadron that will be there for a long time and could actually benefit from your experience more than hearing the details of how and why you are separating.”

 

Not at all surprising he got promoted.  Management at its finest.

He has very strong beliefs and I fully understand the negative reaction to his statement above.  That being said he is straight up a combat leader and and on MANY occasions and in MANY ways he fought for the line guy...on his own authority he simply ended queep and took the heat from above.  Not a single one of us is perfect but I am telling you I would follow that dude into combat any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[flyusaf83]

5 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

He has very strong beliefs and I fully understand the negative reaction to his statement above.  That being said he is straight up a combat leader and and on MANY occasions and in MANY ways he fought for the line guy...on his own authority he simply ended queep and took the heat from above.  Not a single one of us is perfect but I am telling you I would follow that dude into combat any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I’m not saying you’re wrong about Liquid because I don’t know him, but the attitude he showed with those posts was the same kind of toxic BS that is driving people out in droves.  Maybe he is a “good dude”, but I sure wouldn’t want him as my boss.  There are a lot of “good dudes” that the AF absolutely ruins by convincing them to do what it takes to be part of the management club.  That’s when they stop living in reality and say and do shit that drives us crazy (N/N checkrides for talking about airlines).  I hear the crap that leaders say, and I just say to myself that I will never be able to do that with a straight face.  But these “good dudes” sold their souls to the devil and actually believe the shit that comes out of their mouths. It’s like they have no idea how we see right through the bullshit.

And just what in the hell is with the AF’s irrational fear of the airlines? So many managers don’t want to acknowledge the airlines, or come up with some bullshit to tell us about why it would be such a bad idea to be an airline pilot.  They imply we aren’t patriotic if we we discuss being an airline pilot.  I think they’d rather me talk about joining ISIS. Instead of ripping on or ignoring the airlines, freaking show me some positive change. Show me just why in the hell should I stay in the AF. 

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by flyusaf83

[SurelySerious]

5 minutes ago, flyusaf83 said:

Instead of ripping on or ignoring the airlines, freaking show me some positive change. Show me just why in the hell should I stay in the AF. 

 

Nah man, it’s way easier to just tell you, “there will be others,” and try recruiting a 2Lt to replace IPs/EPs. 

[BashiChuni]

i don't know liquid either...

that being said "good dude" != good leader.

if a guy is giving N/N checkrides out to pilots talking about airlines he's a <edit> <edit>  and should have his Q code pulled.

Edited August 8, 2019 by BashiChuni
I’m watching deadwood and cocksucker is in vogue

[RTB]

44 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

i don't know liquid either...

that being said "good dude" != good leader.

if a guy is giving N/N checkrides out to pilots talking about airlines he's a fucking cocksucker  and should have his Q code pulled.

I'm not advocating N/N ground evals...but as a young wingman back during a previous hiring wave, it totally sucked showing up to a squadron full of dudes talking about bailing to the airlines.  I had finally 'arrived' at my dream job in a fighter squadron and it was pretty depressing to have many of the experienced dudes I looked up to talking about airline apps, lifetime pay comparison spreadsheets, and ATP prep courses around the squadron.  Not sure what happened (it was out of my view) but about a month after I got there our leadership at the time put the hammer down and airline discussions pretty much stopped, at least overtly, and were once again replaced by the typical BFM and ACM debates.  It was a MUCH better squadron environment after that and all of us that were eager to do the job were thankful someone in leadership above us had done something to change the dynamic.

So I guess my point is, rampant airline talk can be a real drag for the young guys who either have many years to go before they could bail or are fired up about learning their job, or both.

Full disclosure: I was probably guilty in my later years of doing the same shit (talking airline apps) in the squadron.

[Learjetter]

I wish more of your management buddies would participate on these forums.  Would be interesting to see how delusional and out of touch they really are.  Or, more likely, how much they really don’t give a shit, as it’ll be someone else’s problem after they leave.  

Sort of like how the Liquids and Learjetters don’t really participate anymore.

 

I still peruse the forum but rarely post. Mostly because I'm a dinosaur and understand no one really wants to read my opinion on the topic of the day. Also cuz i read the forum on a phone and posting on a phone is a bitch for me.

 

I've posted advice and sarcastic snarky quips and occasionally PMd with some of you young'uns. Occassionally, Ive posted something someone found controversial, which can be fun, and sometimes reading the threads challenges my own perceptions and beliefs. But in reality, I retired in 2015 and the USAF of 2017 is one I barely recognize -- my opinion is probably less valid as anyone currently serving. Reading through a thread if i see a post i agree with, then theres no sense in my "piggybacking" or "piling on".. I have no idea if I've ever met CH or Liquid or Chang or any of the other senior members. But I served with only 1 toxic leader in my career. I mustve been lucky...or I spread my own share of toxicity. Either way, im not qualified to address it..or many of the other issues on the board.

 

Wasn't Liquid an obscenely busy AFSOC GO? I don't know Learjetter's background.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Those in charge do not see this as a problem they can fix. They will pay it lip service until the hiring wave slows, things will get back to the way they were, and they will declare success. We are Officers first and Pilots second, remember?

 

edit: Second prediction: Return of Boots on the ramp policy, especially if sequestration returns.

 

I was a ROTC-recat: non-rated officer, then went to SUPT. IP/EP in Lears, KC-10s, and Hercs thru crossflow. Took the big 20YAS bonus the first day I was eligible. Ended up on staff and retired when it was clear I wasn't returning to fly or being considered for command.

 

I think Fingers is actually trying to address the combat readiness of the force. To that end, I did what I could in my little sphere of influence. I encourage you do the same.

 

Unfortunately, I think xaarman might be right...feet on the ramp is very effective at getting folks to show their cards early--therefore making the management of the red and blue lines easier to predict. And Im sure theyre looking at it as an option. Hope they dont choose it.

 

 

[TreeA10]

Grounding guys while suffering a shortage of pilots at the same time giving monetary incentives to keep pilots fails to pass any semblance of a common sense test. Which is why you may be correct regarding AF decision making. 

[Motofalcon]

I think the whole "you will get punished for talking about something other than the Air Force" has one merit, in the fact that it insulates the young punks from becoming too salty too quickly. HOWEVER - I 100% disagree with it. That is a prime example of the AF treating the symptoms, not the problem.  You can place a gag order (sts) or use ground evals to "punish" dudes talking about getting out, or you can fix the problem at the source and make it so there isn't such a monstrous disparity between AF and life outside (airlines or otherwise). 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, flyusaf83 said:

I’m not saying you’re wrong about Liquid because I don’t know him, but the attitude he showed with those posts was the same kind of toxic BS that is driving people out in droves.  Maybe he is a “good dude”, but I sure wouldn’t want him as my boss.  There are a lot of “good dudes” that the AF absolutely ruins by convincing them to do what it takes to be part of the management club.  That’s when they stop living in reality and say and do shit that drives us crazy (N/N checkrides for talking about airlines).  I hear the crap that leaders say, and I just say to myself that I will never be able to do that with a straight face.  But these “good dudes” sold their souls to the devil and actually believe the shit that comes out of their mouths. It’s like they have no idea how we see right through the bullshit.

And just what in the hell is with the AF’s irrational fear of the airlines? So many managers don’t want to acknowledge the airlines, or come up with some bullshit to tell us about why it would be such a bad idea to be an airline pilot.  They imply we aren’t patriotic if we we discuss being an airline pilot.  I think they’d rather me talk about joining ISIS. Instead of ripping on or ignoring the airlines, freaking show me some positive change. Show me just why in the hell should I stay in the AF. 

 

Super shack!

[Guest]

8 hours ago, RTB said:

I'm not advocating N/N ground evals...but as a young wingman back during a previous hiring wave, it totally sucked showing up to a squadron full of dudes talking about bailing to the airlines.  I had finally 'arrived' at my dream job in a fighter squadron and it was pretty depressing to have many of the experienced dudes I looked up to talking about airline apps, lifetime pay comparison spreadsheets, and ATP prep courses around the squadron.  Not sure what happened (it was out of my view) but about a month after I got there our leadership at the time put the hammer down and airline discussions pretty much stopped, at least overtly, and were once again replaced by the typical BFM and ACM debates.  It was a MUCH better squadron environment after that and all of us that were eager to do the job were thankful someone in leadership above us had done something to change the dynamic.

So I guess my point is, rampant airline talk can be a real drag for the young guys who either have many years to go before they could bail or are fired up about learning their job, or both.

Full disclosure: I was probably guilty in my later years of doing the same shit (talking airline apps) in the squadron.

Why can’t the discussion about airlines be structured as an alternate development path for when the Air Force decides to do the next RIF? Aren’t we suppose to be in the business of developing rounded individuals who can equally be the next leaders of our organization or the next guy telling us the weather when we land in ATL?

In the last 10 years the AF had two RIF boards, kicked out a bunch of guys at 17 years and paid dudes to leave. 

Can’t we have a happy medium where we can actively talk about the elephant in the room to a point it does not distract from being a combat effective aviator ? Or are we incapable of that task?

[Motofalcon]

51 minutes ago, 1111 said:

Aren’t we suppose to be in the business of developing rounded individuals who can equally be the next leaders of our organization or the next guy telling us the weather when we land in ATL?

Can’t we have a happy medium where we can actively talk about the elephant in the room to a point it does not distract from being a combat effective aviator ?

Or are we incapable of that task?

To answer in order:

1) Yes, we are. Let us not forget that while everyone says we are "officers first, pilots second" we are actually "Americans first, officers second, pilots third". It only pays back dividends to the country as a whole to have well-rounded, educated people in the citizenry; mil, retired/separated,  or otherwise. That was the reason behind the original Montgomery GI Bill. 

2) We should be able to. 

3) We are incapable of that, given the current leadership model under which we operate.