1,000 Retired Pilots Can Be Recalled to Active Duty

[HuggyU2]

Yes, I get that.  

What you don't get is that I work 5 jobs right now.  Your concept of "don't work get $50k a year" doesn't really work for me.  How many AF pilots out there have retired and quit working altogether, and are living high on the hog at $50-$60k per year?

Instead, I look at what my 2019 income would be if I went back.  I then compare that to my projected 2019 income on my current career path.  

VA benefits and retirement pay are subtracted, and $151,000 is added.  That's not all that may change.  

The decision to go back might also affect the amount of money I'm making in the other jobs I'm working... and potentially open up some new opportunities I'd like to consider.  

I also consider the value of "quality of life"... which is going to be different for each person.  

Simplifying such a serious decision is never a good call.  

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by HuggyU2

[Champ Kind]

Are there any other incentives big blue is offering to return?

I think I remember seeing in the bonus thread someone saying something like “yeah I’d come back....for $$$/year, permanent PT test exemption, no deployments, no queep/fly only, etc.”

Just wondering how much they are trying to sweeten the deal to attract back some talent and experience.

[HuggyU2]

I spoke to the VRRAD office today, and there are no financial incentives that they knew about.  

 

[icohftb]

27 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

Yes, I get that.  

What you don't get is that I work 5 jobs right now.  Your concept of "don't work get $50k a year" doesn't really work for me.  How many AF pilots out there have retired and quit working altogether, and are living high on the hog at $50-$60k per year?

Instead, I look at what my 2019 income would be if I went back.  I then compare that to my projected 2019 income on my current career path.  

VA benefits and retirement pay are subtracted, and $151,000 is added.  That's not all that may change.  

The decision to go back might also affect the amount of money I'm making in the other jobs I'm working... and potentially open up some new opportunities I'd like to consider.  

I also consider the value of "quality of life"... which is going to be different for each person.  

Simplifying such a serious decision is never a good call.  

 

 

I think you're making it too complicated. You said if you went back you'd make 150k. Which would financially be the same as making 100k on the outside + retirement pay. For most retired pilots that's not an unreasonable salary with just 1 job.

Then you can consider benefits and QOL.

[HuggyU2]

Fine.  You figure it out any way that makes you happy.  

[Hunter Rose]

6 hours ago, icohftb said:

Don't work get 50k a year. Work get 150k. Am i missing something? There's a huge financial disincentive to stay past 20 years. The 2.5% per year increase to your pension doesn't make up for it.

 

The "huge financial disincentive" for working past 20 years gets thrown around a lot, but I don't think people really look at it correctly.  The math isn't just  "work get 50K/don't work get 150K".

For a Lt Col making $150K a year, you have to compensate for tax free BAH/BAS as well as account for the 2.5% pension increase when comparing it to a civilian salary. 

I make $29.5K tax free, so you'd have to add in an extra $9K to account for civilian taxes to get to the same take home money. The 2.5% pension increase for a Lt Col is roughly $3.5K extra per year to the pension.  That's zero risk, so using a conservative 4.5% rate of return I'd need to save $78K to equal the extra same $3.5K passive income stream.  So an extra $28K ($78K - $50K pension ) needs to get added to the civilian salary to be equivalent to staying in the military an extra year.

Thus, a more accurate comparison is a Lt Col retiring at 20 years would need to earn a civilian salary of $187K to break even.   

I'm not saying you don't make more money in the long run switching to the airlines, but you will have to account for a reduced salary for a few years even at a Legacy airline until you equal your military pay.  I'd gladly stay in the military an extra 4 years if they let me fly at the FTU and  I was guaranteed in writing per my contract not to be PCS'd or deployed.  

 

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Hunter Rose

[flyusaf83]

7 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

I spoke to the VRRAD office today, and there are no financial incentives that they knew about.  

 

Any idea how many pilots have or are in the process of returning to AD under VRRAD?

[FUSEPLUG]

7 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

Fine.  You figure it out any way that makes you happy.  

OK, Huggy... what's your angle?  Back to the U2? 

[HuggyU2]

1 hour ago, flyusaf83 said:

Any idea how many pilots have or are in the process of returning to AD under VRRAD?

This was only announced yesterday.  

 

1 hour ago, FUSEPLUG said:

OK, Huggy... what's your angle?  Back to the U2? 

Not sure yet.  

Unlikely I'd do it.  But it's worth a few brain cells to give it a look.  

[FourFans]

Standby for stop loss when this fails.

[icohftb]

Before you calculate the "value added" to your pension you might want to consider that while the payout will increase 2.5% of your base pay for every year you stay in, you also have a limited time to receive it. Assuming the average person would be able to retire at 42 with a life expectancy of 82 years you have roughly 40 years to receive the retirement. Every year you delay it by staying on AD, you lose 2.5% off the total.

There's a lot of assumptions. If you are older at retirement (or are in poor health and have a shorter life expectancy) the pension is worth less vs if you could retire at say 37 and expected to live to 100.

If you look at buying an annuity. There's also a lot of assumptions in calculating the "present value" of a stream of future payouts so you can fudge the results in either direction by tweaking the numbers and then checking the actuarial tables to factor in life expectancy.

Bottom line I dont value a 3k annual increase to my future retirement at 78k cash in hand.

[Hunter Rose]

4 hours ago, yeah2011 said:

Also, if you are earning 150K (29K of that tax-free) right now, and then step out at 20 years and earn 187K + 52K retirement, it seems that you would be way ahead. Depending on what state you retire to, I'd estimate you would have to earn up to 130K at your new job to break even. 

If a Lt Col retires at 20 years and gets a civilian job at $187K +$52K pension he would absolutely be way ahead.

Got links to any jobs that are going to pay me $187K year one?  if so, send them my way!

Again, I'm not arguing you don't do better in the long run if a Lt Col retires at 20 and works for the airlines for 23 years.  I'm just pointing out that people often don't factor in realistic dollar values when making the decision.  Folks always seem to undervalue the actual value of military pay/pension increases and disregard the fact that for the first year in the airlines you're losing about $80K in salary.

I think of it as calculating a break-even point much like if you were doing a mortgage refinance.  In reality it's about 3-5 years in the airlines before you've accounted for the lost income/pension increases and start being better off in pure dollar terms.  

Granted this completely disregards QoL differences.  Just offering s different perspective.  

 

 

[Buddy Spike]

2 minutes ago, Hunter Rose said:

If a Lt Col retires at 20 years and gets a civilian job at $187K +$52K pension he would absolutely be way ahead.

Got links to any jobs that are going to pay me $187K year one?  if so, send them my way!

Again, I'm not arguing you don't do better in the long run if a Lt Col retires at 20 and works for the airlines for 23 years.  I'm just pointing out that people often don't factor in realistic dollar values when making the decision.  Folks always seem to undervalue the actual value of military pay/pension increases and disregard the fact that for the first year in the airlines you're losing about $80K in salary.

I think of it as calculating a break-even point much like if you were doing a mortgage refinance.  In reality it's about 3-5 years in the airlines before you've accounted for the lost income/pension increases and start being better off in pure dollar terms.  

Granted this completely disregards QoL differences.  Just offering s different perspective.  

 

 

I saw a sim IP job at Holloman posted on a Facebook group that was pretty close to $187k (if you took the no health insurance buyback).

 

 

[Hunter Rose]

My suspicion is also that big AF uses my thought process/calculations in thinking a $35K bonus is sufficient.  My math is much like the "statement of military compensation" that DFAS gives you to assign dollar values to military benefits like tax free pay, commissary privileges, etc.

I can easily see a budget officer doing roughly the same thought process that got me to $187K, adding $35K to that and saying:

"We're offering these  pilots the equivalent of $222K annually and they are still leaving! We'll never be able to pay their greedy asses enough so we should increase UPT production ASAP!"  

[tac airlifter]

8 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

Not sure yet.  

Unlikely I'd do it.  But it's worth a few brain cells to give it a look.  

Huggy if you come back on AD you should try your hand on a different aircraft.  We’d love to have you in AFSOC.

[guineapigfury]

1 hour ago, Hunter Rose said:

Got links to any jobs that are going to pay me $187K year one?  if so, send them my way!

If you're MQ-9 LR qualed, shoot me a pm.

[Majestik Møøse]

Do it, Huggy. Make Recce Great Again.

[FUSEPLUG]

1 hour ago, Majestik Møøse said:

Do it, Huggy. Make Recce Great Again.

Is there a pencil patch for that?  There's a red "Make Airlift Great Again" patch floating around.  Wish I had one.

[SocialD]

1 minute ago, FUSEPLUG said:

Is there a pencil patch for that?  There's a red "Make Airlift Great Again" patch floating around.  Wish I had one.

WWHU2D?

[matmacwc]

2 minutes ago, FUSEPLUG said:

Is there a pencil patch for that?  There's a red "Make Airlift Great Again" patch floating around.  Wish I had one.

Thats funny, and it must infuriate a small section of our population, Bravo!  I'd wear that for the reaction.

Edited May 25, 2018 by matmacwc

[viper154]

6 hours ago, matmacwc said:

Thats funny, and it must infuriate a small section of our population, Bravo!  I'd wear that for the reaction.

I have a “Make Africa Great Again” shirt with a Reaper on the back. It gets some amazingly awkward looks 

[matmacwc]

Oh yeah, I bet they recall 12 pilots.

[pawnman]

Aside from all the financials... There's a reason people are battling right at year twenty. So far, the Air Force has been unable to overcome this reasons. Why would someone who got out due to the BS, started another career, and planted the family in their permanent town want to come back?

Seriously... People can already run these numbers before they retire. Why would coming back on AD years later be any more appealing than just staying?

[HuggyU2]

3 hours ago, matmacwc said:

Oh yeah, I bet they recall 12 pilots.

I'm going to say you're wrong on this one, matmacwc.  

Certainly not 1000... but I think it might get some traction with those retired for under 12 months.  

 

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Why would someone who got out due to the BS,...

Because not everyone retired because of the BS.  

 

Why would coming back on AD years later be any more appealing than just staying?

Because... for those that just retired and went to the airlines recently... they now  have a seniority number that is accruing longevity.

Edited May 26, 2018 by HuggyU2

[Sprkt69]

13 hours ago, Hunter Rose said:

If a Lt Col retires at 20 years and gets a civilian job at $187K +$52K pension he would absolutely be way ahead.

Got links to any jobs that are going to pay me $187K year one?  if so, send them my way!

Again, I'm not arguing you don't do better in the long run if a Lt Col retires at 20 and works for the airlines for 23 years.  I'm just pointing out that people often don't factor in realistic dollar values when making the decision.  Folks always seem to undervalue the actual value of military pay/pension increases and disregard the fact that for the first year in the airlines you're losing about $80K in salary.

I think of it as calculating a break-even point much like if you were doing a mortgage refinance.  In reality it's about 3-5 years in the airlines before you've accounted for the lost income/pension increases and start being better off in pure dollar terms.  

Granted this completely disregards QoL differences.  Just offering s different perspective.  

 

 

Continuing as a LtCol past 20 years in AD? Pass. 

The QoL increase as an AD quitter has far exceeded the bonus. We all make choices, and mine was the Guard.