1,000 Retired Pilots Can Be Recalled to Active Duty

[ViperStud]

Are they strictly talking retirees or separated pilots, too?  This could be a really attractive option to dudes who get a line number and are within X years of 20 yrs TAFMS, and with it the AD pension. 

Lets say a dude separates and accrues 16 years TAFMS un the Guard. Maybe they get hired by an airline, finish probation (or not) and volunteer to go back on AD for 4 years to finish up. They’re stupid to limit the target audience to retirees only. 

[icohftb]

They already have the sabbatical option... which incurs an 3:2 adsc. Not sure how many people took it.

Also they may not want to take separated folks since that would only encourage more people to get out early to seek airline jobs...

[matmacwc]

26 minutes ago, icohftb said:

encourage more people to get out early to seek airline jobs...

I don't think they have much of a choice.  I'll bet Huggy a beer it is under 50 people, my family lives in Rancho Murietta near Sac. so I'm good for it when the day comes I'm visiting them...(if you stayed in the area)

Edited May 26, 2018 by matmacwc

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, icohftb said:

They already have the sabbatical option... which incurs an 3:2 adsc. Not sure how many people took it.

Also they may not want to take separated folks since that would only encourage more people to get out early to seek airline jobs...

Probably not many rated people. We can't even release people from my community to do "high-priority" staff jobs or other gigs (like the financial leadership thing). Can't imagine they'll release you to not fill a billet for three years.

[HuggyU2]

On 5/26/2018 at 2:17 PM, matmacwc said:

 I'll bet Huggy a beer it is under 50 people,..

I'll take that bet:  even if I lose, I win since I get to drink beer with another aviator I haven't met.  

I'm an hour from Rancho Murrieta.  

[ClearedHot]

RUMINT Only, so far less than 10.

[BFM this]

On 5/25/2018 at 11:17 PM, HuggyU2 said:

Because... for those that just retired and went to the airlines recently... they now  have a seniority number that is accruing longevity.

I'm not sure that's correct.  That was one of the big spears thrown at the original version: no USERRA protection, and I'm not reading a substantial change to that position with the current iteration.  However, I worked alongside quite a few furloughees in the past decade, and their airlines were willing to play ball and let them defer recall to stay and finish 20, and then return well after their 5y clock had long expired. So who knows?

[HuggyU2]

On 5/31/2018 at 5:24 AM, BFM this said:

I'm not sure that's correct.  That was one of the big spears thrown at the original version: no USERRA protection, 

I was not aware of this.  However, I do not understand how there is no USERRA protection.  Whether you volunteer or not does not affect your USERRA rights.  

Not sure which version you mean by "the original version":  I took the VRRAD from 2010-2014, and I had USERRA protection.  

In any case, it doesn't matter for me now that I've looked at the numbers.  While I was pleased to see that going for a two-year hitch would increase my retiree pay over $1,000/month, I'm not sure I'd live long enough to make up the difference in the overall pay cut.  It is just huge.  Massive.  At least I can now justify some additional aviation activities I want to get involved in, since I'll still come out way ahead.

In addition to losing my retiree pay, it would probably hamper some of the additional income I'm making at my other part time jobs.  

I still envision a number of scenarios where this VRRAD might appeal to recently-retired pilots.

That said... will there be at least 50 people that see it as enticing?  I know of one.  However, I may be so far off that I'll be buying matmacwc multiple rounds.  

 

[SocialD]

29 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

I was not aware of this.  However, I do not understand how there is no USERRA protection.  Whether you volunteer or not does not affect your USERRA rights.  

Not sure which version you mean by "the original version":  I took the VRRAD from 2010-2014, and I had USERRA protection.  

Huggy, were those orders exempt from your 5 year USERRA clock?  My last two deployments (TSP...ie NOT contingency orders), we got to pick between the blue pill or red pill.  Blue pill = USERRA exemption, but no early retirement credit.  Red pill = NOT USERRA exempt, but you get early retirement credit.  No worries though, there is a bill being proposed to change the blue pill to allow for early retirement credit, which they've been saying for the 4 years.  So...checks in the mail!  

 

[BashiChuni]

I want to meet huggy

hes a straight Bawse capital ‘B’

 

[HuggyU2]

13 hours ago, SocialD said:

Huggy, were those orders exempt from your 5 year USERRA clock? 

My recollection is that they weren't... but some people that had them were going to try to manipulate the orders to make them so.  I don't know if they succeeded.  

In my case, I had no need for an exemption from the 5 year clock, so I never paid attention to that aspect.  

[Loach]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 3:09 PM, ViperStud said:

Are they strictly talking retirees or separated pilots, too?  This could be a really attractive option to dudes who get a line number and are within X years of 20 yrs TAFMS, and with it the AD pension. 

Lets say a dude separates and accrues 16 years TAFMS un the Guard. Maybe they get hired by an airline, finish probation (or not) and volunteer to go back on AD for 4 years to finish up. They’re stupid to limit the target audience to retirees only. 

This is strictly for those who retired with a regular (i.e. "Active Duty") retirement, whether that be from 20 years of RegAF service, a combination of RegAF and AGR service, or even bums who cobble together an active duty retirement.  If you didn't retire or you retired from the ARC with a "reserve retirement", you're not eligible.

As far as the USERRA information, this is straight from the AFPC VRRAD website:

Quote

Participation in VRRAD does not incur any additional active-duty service commitment beyond the length of the EAD orders. Service under Title 10, USC § 688, is exempt from the five-year window of statutorily protected re-employment rights, meaning participating officers’ rights are protected and this period of service does not count toward their five years of USERRA protection

.

In my case, I'm a non-flying GS-13 working for the Gov't with a regular retirement.  No matter what, I need to work b/c it's impossible to live in my area on $65K/year, but my GS job kind of blows...  Returning to active duty will basically pay me about what I bring home now (retirement and GS-13 pay), but with better QoL, so I'm applying for this.  In addition, if I keep my GS job (which I will), I can sell back Mil Leave days each year (15 of them) and if I use them in conjunction with a holiday (10 federal holidays), I'll actually wind up with 25 paid days or 5 weeks each year of GS-13 pay, so that actually will put me ahead of what I make now.  And, as with the airlines, my seniority (and more importantly WGI's (step increases) will continue).

[ViperStud]

4 hours ago, Loach said:

This is strictly for those who retired with a regular (i.e. "Active Duty") retirement, whether that be from 20 years of RegAF service, a combination of RegAF and AGR service, or even bums who cobble together an active duty retirement.  If you didn't retire or you retired from the ARC with a "reserve retirement", you're not eligible.

As far as the USERRA information, this is straight from the AFPC VRRAD website:

.

In my case, I'm a non-flying GS-13 working for the Gov't with a regular retirement.  No matter what, I need to work b/c it's impossible to live in my area on $65K/year, but my GS job kind of blows...  Returning to active duty will basically pay me about what I bring home now (retirement and GS-13 pay), but with better QoL, so I'm applying for this.  In addition, if I keep my GS job (which I will), I can sell back Mil Leave days each year (15 of them) and if I use them in conjunction with a holiday (10 federal holidays), I'll actually wind up with 25 paid days or 5 weeks each year of GS-13 pay, so that actually will put me ahead of what I make now.  And, as with the airlines, my seniority (and more importantly WGI's (step increases) will continue).

How is it you are burning your mil leave?  We have many GS-13s in Userra right now serving as AGRs. As of 1 Jan 2017, we were told that the use of the 120 hrs of mil leave is no longer allowed each year, so our AGRs lost the ability (which had been standard up to that point) to earn a few weeks of GS pay each year by filling out time cards with LM. That’s all been taken away as of last year. 

 

What state are you in if you don’t mind my asking?

[Gazmo]

How is it you are burning your mil leave?  We have many GS-13s in Userra right now serving as AGRs. As of 1 Jan 2017, we were told that the use of the 120 hrs of mil leave is no longer allowed each year, so our AGRs lost the ability (which had been standard up to that point) to earn a few weeks of GS pay each year by filling out time cards with LM. That’s all been taken away as of last year. 
 
What state are you in if you don’t mind my asking?

I believe this is only the case with ART's and AGR's. Not GS's getting recalled to AD. They basically put an end to people working the system in the NG/ANG.

[ARAMP1]

On 5/26/2018 at 2:09 PM, ViperStud said:

Are they strictly talking retirees or separated pilots, too?  This could be a really attractive option to dudes who get a line number and are within X years of 20 yrs TAFMS, and with it the AD pension. 

Lets say a dude separates and accrues 16 years TAFMS un the Guard. Maybe they get hired by an airline, finish probation (or not) and volunteer to go back on AD for 4 years to finish up. They’re stupid to limit the target audience to retirees only. 

I know a dude who volunteered to come back (he's probably on here).  He was twice passed over for Lt Col and took the 15 year retirement as a Major.  He's been flying for the airlines for around 4 years now.  He volunteered to come back for a 3 year tour and AFPC's response was "we're only taking pilots who retired at 20 years at this time".  LOL.  Personally, I think they did him a favor.  

[pawnman]

23 hours ago, ARAMP1 said:

I know a dude who volunteered to come back (he's probably on here).  He was twice passed over for Lt Col and took the 15 year retirement as a Major.  He's been flying for the airlines for around 4 years now.  He volunteered to come back for a 3 year tour and AFPC's response was "we're only taking pilots who retired at 20 years at this time".  LOL.  Personally, I think they did him a favor.  

Sounds about right. That's the kind of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place.

[AirGuardianC141747]

On 5/27/2018 at 5:09 AM, ViperStud said:

Are they strictly talking retirees or separated pilots, too?  This could be a really attractive option to dudes who get a line number and are within X years of 20 yrs TAFMS, and with it the AD pension. 

Lets say a dude separates and accrues 16 years TAFMS un the Guard. Maybe they get hired by an airline, finish probation (or not) and volunteer to go back on AD for 4 years to finish up. They’re stupid to limit the target audience to retirees only. 

You answered it yourself in the first paragraph regarding the “They’re stupid to limit the target audience to retirees only.” 

Not so stupid from the bean counter perspective. You just guaranteed a 10 year, 20 year or even 30 year plus bill to pay in your scenario that has been playing out for years now. Multiply that retirement cost as long as the individual is alive. They have been closing the 15 year AD time or greater loop hole for getting orders for several years. 2010 was about when the first big AD orders cutback hit if I recall correctly. They have plenty of data of what it’s costing them now....

They’re stupid not to hand folks $300,000 or even $400,000 plus (half up front/other half when done) who left at the 10-12 year point and abuse them for 5-7 years. No indefinite continuous bill to pay. Basically paid for your services and be off with yourself.

Selecting the “retired folks” is getting a $50,000 plus benefit on a bill that was already being paid..... think about it. Basically getting a Lt Col for $100,000. Even doing 4 more AD years and getting 10% more in retirement pay won’t catch up until decades upon decades for the $200,000 plus paid as a retiree during those 4 years if you stayed retired. Quality of life will dictate decisions differently for everyone.

What does make sense is a retiree who recently was hired by an airline, has small children, finally has become a newly-wed (after the fact), tons of debt, a dog who has separation anxiety, etc. then it works out as better pay for a couple of years or so and then getting your $50,000 plus annual retirement bonus upon exiting the AD yet once again. (Better be non-deployable🙂

 

 

[bennynova]

On 6/11/2018 at 7:19 PM, pawnman said:

Sounds about right. That's the kind of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place.

I’m convinced we don’t send our best and brightest to AFPC

[ViperStud]

1 hour ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

 Words, words...Better be non-deployable.

Blast from the past. They’re already doing it, though. Plenty of bros over 15 years are hacking their line numbers and finishing up - orders, AGRs (plenty opening up now) and VLPAD. AF might as well get some more of those dudes back on AD or they’ll just finish up their 20 elsewhere. 

[filthy_liar]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 9:04 AM, Cockpit2Cockpit said:

Who is Fingers in this conversation?

 

I think I got out right before Fingers took over as CSAF.  He was the CJSC director of staff, so he ran the OPSDEPS and had a ton of influence.  I deployed a couple of times when he was the CFACC, he seemed engaged but the only compelling thing I remember was he was at the helm during one of the worst, if not the worst, mishap years in the AOR.  From reading these posts, sounds like he was a disappointment as the Chief - much like Welsh in my opinion.  I can't even remember who was before Welsh.

It will be interesting to see how the pilot shortage issue plays out.  I've been out of the jet far too long to be considered for anything but a turd desk gig.  The thought would never enter my mind for the reasons already discussed on here.  But I can see how it might be attractive to recent retirees, especially if they ended up at a white jet base.

[Waingro]

47 minutes ago, filthy_liar said:

I think I got out right before Fingers took over as CSAF.  He was the CJSC director of staff, so he ran the OPSDEPS and had a ton of influence.  I deployed a couple of times when he was the CFACC, he seemed engaged but the only compelling thing I remember was he was at the helm during one of the worst, if not the worst, mishap years in the AOR.  From reading these posts, sounds like he was a disappointment as the Chief - much like Welsh in my opinion.  I can't even remember who was before Welsh.

Wait you don't remember who was before Welsh? Is that some sort of PTSD response? If you think Welsh was a disappointment, then Schwartz was straight up cancer. Or maybe AIDS. Probably both.

Jumper got fired in 2008 because he wouldn't sacrifice 5th-Gen capabilities to feed the Army's insatiable demand for MQ-1 orbits. They found a perfect yes-man in Schwartz, and we're still digging out of it today. It's my opinion that he laid the foundation for the "everyone is a warrior" culture that has been decaying us as a combat force for the last decade. When everyone's a hero, nobody's a hero. Don't tell the services guy that he matters as much as a TACP or bomb dropper or even a maintainer working 12s on the ramp. Because in addition to being false, everyone knows it's false, and it comes off as insulting. A little bit off-topic there but yeah, if you've really forgotten who was before Welsh, then considering that a blessing. Schwartz's tenure is worth forgetting.

[Sketch]

3 minutes ago, Waingro said:

Wait you don't remember who was before Welsh? Is that some sort of PTSD response? If you think Welsh was a disappointment, then Schwartz was straight up cancer. Or maybe AIDS. Probably both.

Jumper got fired in 2008 because he wouldn't sacrifice 5th-Gen capabilities to feed the Army's insatiable demand for MQ-1 orbits. They found a perfect yes-man in Schwartz, and we're still digging out of it today. It's my opinion that he laid the foundation for the "everyone is a warrior" culture that has been decaying us as a combat force for the last decade. When everyone's a hero, nobody's a hero. Don't tell the services guy that he matters as much as a TACP or bomb dropper or even a maintainer working 12s on the ramp. Because in addition to being false, everyone knows it's false, and it comes off as insulting. A little bit off-topic there but yeah, if you've really forgotten who was before Welsh, then considering that a blessing. Schwartz's tenure is worth forgetting.

It was Moseley not Jumper who got fired, mostly because he backed continuing F-22 production when SECDEF Gates, who had a chip on his shoulder for expensive AF projects, wanted it gone. That and the flown Nuke over CONUS by a BUFF.

[Waingro]

37 minutes ago, Sketch said:

It was Moseley not Jumper who got fired, mostly because he backed continuing F-22 production when SECDEF Gates, who had a chip on his shoulder for expensive AF projects, wanted it gone. That and the flown Nuke over CONUS by a BUFF.

Valid for validity. Takeaway being that Schwartz was picked for his ability to fall in line with SECDEF. That and the nuke overflight also had the effect of breeding a generation of officers who knew no other world than one where you were beheaded for the slightest transgression, particularly true in AFGSC. As a result, we've bred an officer corps whose preferred COA will almost always be one of "that which is least likely to draw attention and/or get me fired."

[filthy_liar]

1 hour ago, Waingro said:

Wait you don't remember who was before Welsh? Is that some sort of PTSD response? If you think Welsh was a disappointment, then Schwartz was straight up cancer. Or maybe AIDS. Probably both.

Jumper got fired in 2008 because he wouldn't sacrifice 5th-Gen capabilities to feed the Army's insatiable demand for MQ-1 orbits. They found a perfect yes-man in Schwartz, and we're still digging out of it today. It's my opinion that he laid the foundation for the "everyone is a warrior" culture that has been decaying us as a combat force for the last decade. When everyone's a hero, nobody's a hero. Don't tell the services guy that he matters as much as a TACP or bomb dropper or even a maintainer working 12s on the ramp. Because in addition to being false, everyone knows it's false, and it comes off as insulting. A little bit off-topic there but yeah, if you've really forgotten who was before Welsh, then considering that a blessing. Schwartz's tenure is worth forgetting.

Ahhh that's right.  I think my selective memory kicked in as a defense mechanism.  Yes, Schwartz was pretty terrible.  I heard him give a speech one time and we were cringing in the audience.  Everyone is equal nonsense like you said, but to make it worse he sounded and carried himself like he was 105 years old.

Mosely was the one who was shitcanned by Gates.

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, Waingro said:

They found a perfect yes-man in Schwartz, and we're still digging out of it today. It's my opinion that he laid the foundation for the "everyone is a warrior" culture that has been decaying us as a combat force for the last decade. When everyone's a hero, nobody's a hero. Don't tell the services guy that he matters as much as a TACP or bomb dropper or even a maintainer working 12s on the ramp. Because in addition to being false, everyone knows it's false, and it comes off as insulting. A little bit off-topic there but yeah, if you've really forgotten who was before Welsh, then considering that a blessing. Schwartz's tenure is worth forgetting.

As bad as Schwartz was, the "everyone is a warrior" crap happened well before Schwartz.