Age Waivers

[OTR]

I know the cutoff is 30 but does anyone have any experience or knowledge of NGB and how strict or not they are about pushing an age waiver through? The problem would not be with the unit I’m just wondering about NGB approval. About me...

Turning 29 in 2 weeks. 

Will have PRK done in a month so I understand I have a year out to wait for my flight physical.

Will be 30 during AMS & IFT

[Stoker]

Don't know about the age waiver, but as I understand it Lasik/PRK only has a six month wait now.

[gthsd87]

Had an age waiver approved recently through NGB. Not sure why more units don’t want to pursue them, other than the extra time but it really only added a few months to my process, and believe it could be done in less time. If you have any more specific questions hit me up.

[umaerograd]

I’m 33 but been in the Navy for 8 years as a naval flight officer.  However, 95% of the units ive contacted for boards coming up in the next year, said they are considering age waivers for those that exceed.  Now since I’m a prior, that may have different implications.  But the attitude I’m taking is, I’m going to make them tell me no.  I always preface my initial phone call or email with that and it has been met positively so far except for one ANG squadron. To clarify, that squadron wasn’t mean or cold about it, they simply said they weren’t entertaining waivers at this time. 

 

So my advice, reach out, be direct, and ask the question.  Worst they can say is no.  

Edited October 24, 2017 by umaerograd

[Cameltactics]

Bottom Line: If the unit really likes you and can justify it, you'll get the age waiver. Think high scores, unit bros really like you, and the leadership can justify the need. 

[iceman]

I'm 34 and had one approved by the Reserves recently.  Guard units I talked to specifically asked about age waivers to NGB and were told they shouldn't be a problem.  I talked to a Col. while I was at Wright Patterson for the flight physical and she said she's sat on boards that gave slots to 39 year olds.  You just have to convince the squadron you're worth the extra paperwork, and they can justify the waiver to their wing commander.

[matmacwc]

9 minutes ago, iceman said:

I'm 34 and had one approved by the Reserves recently.  

Holy balls, if you don't commission soon can you even get a "good" 20 years in?  My ANG unit kicks out the ART's at 54.

[iceman]

9 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

Holy balls, if you don't commission soon can you even get a "good" 20 years in?  My ANG unit kicks out the ART's at 54.

Maximum retirement age for officers is 62.  I have 4 years active duty Marines already, so I'll reach 20 years when I'm 50.

[umaerograd]

Yeah most of us applying, in my opinion, who need waivers are prior enlisted or prior officers.  I have 8 years service already and plan on staying longer than 20 if I can.  

[iceman]

On 10/30/2017 at 5:45 PM, umaerograd said:

Yeah most of us applying, in my opinion, who need waivers are prior enlisted or prior officers.  I have 8 years service already and plan on staying longer than 20 if I can.  

At my board there were a couple that applied with no prior service and needed age waivers.  I think one of them actually got it.  The other guy was a coastie, I dunno if that counts as prior service but he got it too.  All three of us needed the waiver though.

[PlanePhlyer]

Buddy of mine was a 8 yr AD B-1 Evaluator WSO and has been through the C-130 Nav course for Reserves, is currently deployed with C-130 and heads to UPT next June. Anything is possible. He'll be 36 at UPT. 

[HeyWatchThis]

On 10/30/2017 at 5:31 PM, matmacwc said:

Holy balls, if you don't commission soon can you even get a "good" 20 years in?  My ANG unit kicks out the ART's at 54.

And here we are extending guys 4 years to 58 or 60 or whatever oldest you can be is lol

Edited November 3, 2017 by HeyWatchThis

[Splash95]

@PlanePhlyer and @gthsd87, PMs sent.

[matmacwc]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:35 AM, PlanePhlyer said:

Buddy of mine was a 8 yr AD B-1 Evaluator WSO and has been through the C-130 Nav course for Reserves, is currently deployed with C-130 and heads to UPT next June. Anything is possible. He'll be 36 at UPT. 

That would suck.

[Raider12]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 2:20 PM, iceman said:

I'm 34 and had one approved by the Reserves recently.  Guard units I talked to specifically asked about age waivers to NGB and were told they shouldn't be a problem.  I talked to a Col. while I was at Wright Patterson for the flight physical and she said she's sat on boards that gave slots to 39 year olds.  You just have to convince the squadron you're worth the extra paperwork, and they can justify the waiver to their wing commander.

I just wanted to share my path to give others in similar positions hope:

31 years old

Almost 10 years prior service AD as an officer / ground guy (Special Ops) and not in the air force

I was able to get hired by an ANG fighter squadron by showing the unit it is worth their time to do the extra paperwork.  There is a waiver for just about anything. My advice is to be humble and hungry to start over as a new guy and be the best team mate possible regardless of age/rank.  If you are in a similar situation mine, just work hard to quickly build a strong package and no doubt you will have a shot.

[EvilEagle]

This is a question I get asked often, so instead of re-typing on every PM I'll just post it here.  Obviously this is my opinion at current time, YMMV with other units and when I'm no longer the CC the sight picture could change again in our unit.  I'm speaking from our experience in New Orleans.  I'm sure other units have different stories, etc, etc.  Internet advice:  it's worth what you paid for it.   

 

What the guys above have said is accurate - the unit has to like you enough to take a chance on you.  More than that, if the paperwork to get an ETP is 1 measure of a$$ pain, they have to like you at least 1 a$$ pain more than a similarly qualified guy that doesn't need an ETP.  If you are 1 of 75 guys rushing for 3 open slots, the odds are not in your favor to get an ETP.  Every wing will have a different take on it.  Obviously the less applicants a unit gets, the less picky they can afford to be.

 

Why is being older even a big deal?  It's a subject that everyone who needs a waiver suddenly thinks they are an expert on.  Arguments can be made of course and there are always exceptions to the rule.  However, in our case we've sought ETPs for age before; it's actually worked out exactly like guys who we've allowed to join that are pilots but not from a fighter background.  They've all ended the same way - in failure.  There are lots of studies about how we learn.  .69 seconds of google-fu shows me this article:  https://www.fastcompany.com/3045424/what-it-takes-to-change-your-brains-patterns-after-age-25  I gave it a quick glance and that's about what we've seen.  Younger people just learn better.  Learning to be a fighter pilot is a major shift from the way most adults think.  Breaking down those barriers when they've had time to form is very difficult; and frankly it's hard enough without having to smash through those additional roadblocks to success.  UPT is where the basis of learning this life starts.  If the 2 year pipeline is akin to watching a child learn to walk, employing in combat is more like going to the Olympics.  There's a lot of learning to do between learning to walk and putting that gold medal around your neck.  And the road never ends - I've been flying the same jet for over 17 years in a row (bragging).  I still learn new things.  Less often than in times past but it still happens; it's harder for me now that I'm an old guy.  I can't imagine trying to learn this stuff at 30+ with a family or other life choices hanging over me.  I was right out of college, 23 years old and not a care in the world.  It was still very difficult (not UPT - that was easy), learning the life. 

 

Someone was on the board recently whining about how it's not fair that everyone doesn't get an interview.  I actually LOL'd at that one.  If you are seeking an ETP, don't be the guy whining about why no one is giving out ETPs or being upset if a unit tells you they aren't entertaining ETPs.  That will result in guys like me LOL'ing at you and immediately jettisoning your resume and face from the collective memory of the hiring board.  Be humble, understand that they have to take a chance on you and that the odds are not stacked in your favor.  The board or unit didn't cause the circumstances that made you late in life to apply for this opportunity, you did; own it.   

[JustHangingOut]

14 minutes ago, EvilEagle said:

This is a question I get asked often, so instead of re-typing on every PM I'll just post it here.  Obviously this is my opinion at current time, YMMV with other units and when I'm no longer the CC the sight picture could change again in our unit.  I'm speaking from our experience in New Orleans.  I'm sure other units have different stories, etc, etc.  Internet advice:  it's worth what you paid for it.   

 

What the guys above have said is accurate - the unit has to like you enough to take a chance on you.  More than that, if the paperwork to get an ETP is 1 measure of a$$ pain, they have to like you at least 1 a$$ pain more than a similarly qualified guy that doesn't need an ETP.  If you are 1 of 75 guys rushing for 3 open slots, the odds are not in your favor to get an ETP.  Every wing will have a different take on it.  Obviously the less applicants a unit gets, the less picky they can afford to be.

 

Why is being older even a big deal?  It's a subject that everyone who needs a waiver suddenly thinks they are an expert on.  Arguments can be made of course and there are always exceptions to the rule.  However, in our case we've sought ETPs for age before; it's actually worked out exactly like guys who we've allowed to join that are pilots but not from a fighter background.  They've all ended the same way - in failure.  There are lots of studies about how we learn.  .69 seconds of google-fu shows me this article:  https://www.fastcompany.com/3045424/what-it-takes-to-change-your-brains-patterns-after-age-25  I gave it a quick glance and that's about what we've seen.  Younger people just learn better.  Learning to be a fighter pilot is a major shift from the way most adults think.  Breaking down those barriers when they've had time to form is very difficult; and frankly it's hard enough without having to smash through those additional roadblocks to success.  UPT is where the basis of learning this life starts.  If the 2 year pipeline is akin to watching a child learn to walk, employing in combat is more like going to the Olympics.  There's a lot of learning to do between learning to walk and putting that gold medal around your neck.  And the road never ends - I've been flying the same jet for over 17 years in a row (bragging).  I still learn new things.  Less often than in times past but it still happens; it's harder for me now that I'm an old guy.  I can't imagine trying to learn this stuff at 30+ with a family or other life choices hanging over me.  I was right out of college, 23 years old and not a care in the world.  It was still very difficult (not UPT - that was easy), learning the life. 

 

Someone was on the board recently whining about how it's not fair that everyone doesn't get an interview.  I actually LOL'd at that one.  If you are seeking an ETP, don't be the guy whining about why no one is giving out ETPs or being upset if a unit tells you they aren't entertaining ETPs.  That will result in guys like me LOL'ing at you and immediately jettisoning your resume and face from the collective memory of the hiring board.  Be humble, understand that they have to take a chance on you and that the odds are not stacked in your favor.  The board or unit didn't cause the circumstances that made you late in life to apply for this opportunity, you did; own it.   

Great post Evil!

I have that article up and look forward to the read. A little humility goes a long way in any profession and I agree with you that if the applicant is worth the investment then they are worth the work. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Edited January 16, 2019 by JustHangingOut

[donkey]

@EvilEagle Thanks for sharing that info and perspective. Out of curiosity, what's your typical cutoff/threshold for assuming a person will need an age waiver vs not needing one?

Thanks!

 

[EvilEagle]

22 hours ago, donkey said:

@EvilEagle Thanks for sharing that info and perspective. Out of curiosity, what's your typical cutoff/threshold for assuming a person will need an age waiver vs not needing one?

Thanks!

 

You require a waiver if you are 30 or older the day you start UPT.  I'd say it depends on what's been going on IRT the pipeline flow when the hiring board meets.  It'll be at least a year from hiring till UPT start and more likely a few months beyond that.  If it's been going slower or we know it's backed up then anyone over 28 we should be prepared to work ETP paperwork. 

[donkey]

Gotcha.

Was just curious if you guys moved that threshold up a little bit to give some wiggle room and account for younger people learning better in your selection process or if you followed the (semi) typical thought process of if you're 28 or younger at the time of the board you "should" be good, at least wrt a potential ETP.

Thanks!

[Patch]

New Rated age is 33 now. Attached is the MFR which states it.

Good luck everyone.

MFR for UPT Age Limit 33.pdf

Edited February 27, 2019 by Patch

[Duck]

Related but unrelated. Got a text from my medical friend that now Stable Sleep Apnea, insect and food allergies are not disqualifying.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[AirGuardianC141747]

I was an age waiver recipient just about 20 years ago (pre 911) and 1 of 2 approved during that fiscal year so things were tough to say the least. Switched to the ANG as a 7 year AD Maintenance Officer when the age limit just changed from 27.5 to 30. I was 31 in UPT thanks to my ANG unit; just happy to have butter bars teaching me and soaking it all in. I worked on staff at the Guard Bureau/ANGRC just a few years ago and watched age waivers getting approved at an increasing rate. The rates increased due too massive airline hiring/constant unit deployment issues since 2012/13ish so things should continue as the USAF is hurting as a whole. 11F (Fighter) and 11M (Mobility) were/are disappearing at an alarming rate with the airline hiring wave and this shortage will continue as company requirements (Total Hours/PIC Time/Degrees) have decreased significantly. Military pilots are being sought after with a vengeance for the most part if you have regency of experience. We have hired 24, 25, 26 year olds to fly our 767, 747s which is a good indicator of current events... Timing is everything and the Military/commercial arena is a cyclic event.

*I concur with Duck. I had sleep apnea in the USAF and regained my flight status after fulfilling the medical requirements.

[matmacwc]

Which airline?  Who’s the “we”?

[AirGuardianC141747]

We = Atlas Air. So much for remaining anonymous, but good question good sir! 🤪