Texas Church Shooting

[Guest]

Yes, ignore my predictions, and then be blindsided when they come true. This will be a very interesting week. Prepare yourselves or be inundated by the tide of history. The Saudi hardliners have big plans in store for the middle east.

I thought we were done with you

[RTB]

WSJ is reporting that the AF failed to notify the FBI about this asshole’s Court martial conviction, which had it been sent, should have prevented him from buying the guns that he bought.  

[HossHarris]

I’m sure there will be swift accountability in the AF legal world ....just like when finance fucks up. 

[RTB]

24 minutes ago, HossHarris said:

I’m sure there will be swift accountability in the AF legal world ....just like when finance fucks up. 

Exactly.  Lots of concerned looks, wringing of hands, and then going about their day.

[brabus]

Glock 43 with a good gun belt and a single mag carrier on the other side...I wear it for hours, in and out of the car, with no real comfort issues.  I even forget it's there when driving, sitting at a restaurant, etc.  A proper belt/holster set up will take care of the desire to throw your gun in the center console after 15 min.  For times I don't have a belt on, a pocket .380 does the trick.

[brickhistory]

Laws against shooting others as in murder.  Check.

Laws against using a firearm in the commission of a felony.  Check.

Laws against felons obtaining/possessing firearms.  Check.

Laws mandating felony convictions put entered into FBI's NCIS database.  Check.

Big Blue f'ing this up.  Check.

So, to some the solution is more government.  The same government that can't do this.

Sick fcuk, abusing his wife and his infant.  Now this.  Rot in hell, you motherfcuker.

I also hope that Big Blue is named as a defendant in a giant civil case as being negligent and culpable and the families get huge dollars.  I also hope OSI pogues and Holloman leaders in place at the time draw, at a minimum, career-ending paperwork.  Those who are supposed to audit such processes as well.  Do your fcukin' job, morons.

[M2]

Full supporter of 2A, and carry (to include OC'ing) as much as I can.  Too bad the USAF doesn't understand what "shall not be infringed" means, but as I still have to bring home the paycheck, it's a risk I have to accept.  Otherwise, I'm usually packing a 5.25" XD-M with 13+1 rounds of .45 ACP (plus a second mag).  True, the shooter had an AR and would definitely have an edge on my with my every day carry gun; but at least I would have a chance to defend myself and even more importantly, those I love.

I will not speculate on this recent tragedy which struck so near home to me (Sutherland Springs is only 35 miles SE of San Antonio), but I am curious as to how a congregation of 50+ people in a rural Texas church did not include any LTC/CHL holders.  Given the number of licenses issued by the state, there's usually a good chance someone is packing.  I don't know if the church had a 30.06/30.07 (prohibiting concealed and open carry) but if that were the case than this is how disarming law-abiding citizens does nothing to stop such shootings.  As has been seen in previous mass shootings they usually occur:  1) in a place where the victims are unarmed and 2) end quickly once the shooter is threatened with a counter-force.   In fact, reports are indicating that a citizen with a rifle most likely stopped the shooter from claiming more victims!  God bless him and the guy who helped him stop the threat!

Unfortunately, much like the recent Vegas shooting, NYC truck massacre, and every other mass killing in recent history; something else will pop up and this will be quickly forgotten by everyone except those directly affected by it.  There will be the usual cries for greater gun control (that will have no impact on stopping future shootings), but that is about it.  I don't believe it's some huge conspiracy as some claim, it's just the way of the modern world.   People will react, but the truth is we are becoming more and more desensitized to such horrendous acts.  Sad...

[Prosuper]

Well if any good comes from this it might get through to the USAF office dewelers that not doing your jobs has serious reprecussions.

[LJDRVR]

If I was the President, I'd publicly fire the SAF and CSAF.

Whoever didn't do their job with this one should be charged with criminal offenses.

And forget all of the hand wringing over mental illness. This turd hit his wife, cracked his child's skull, and left his dog outside all day and kicked it in the head. He's not mentally ill, he was just an asshole. I love the second amendment, but it's high time we figured out a way to prevent the assholes from arming themselves.

I have had it with this mass shooting crap.

[LJDRVR]

12 hours ago, brickhistory said:

I also hope that Big Blue is named as a defendant in a giant civil case as being negligent and culpable and the families get huge dollars.  I also hope OSI pogues and Holloman leaders in place at the time draw, at a minimum, career-ending paperwork.  Those who are supposed to audit such processes as well.  Do your fcukin' job, morons.

So agree. More than career-ending paperwork is needed. Accountability. They had a responsibility to protect their fellow citizens. As far as I'm concerned, they pulled the trigger themselves.  

Anybody want to take odds on how many other felony convictions weren't properly reported?

[RTB]

Sadly my pessimistic side says that there will be little direct accountability for anyone in the AF who failed to do their job and let this guy buy his guns.  I hope I’m wrong. 

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, LJDRVR said:

If I was the President, I'd publicly fire the SAF and CSAF.

Whoever didn't do their job with this one should be charged with criminal offenses.

And forget all of the hand wringing over mental illness. This turd hit his wife, cracked his child's skull, and left his dog outside all day and kicked it in the head. He's not mentally ill, he was just an asshole. I love the second amendment, but it's high time we figured out a way to prevent the assholes from arming themselves.

I have had it with this mass shooting crap.

Agreed. Sadly, any accountability will likely fall on the lowest ranking people it possibly can. There is a systemic problem in the AF where things like PME, mandatory power point, volunteerism, endless OPER/EPR polishing, and a plethora of other non mission related tasks take precedence over the actual J.O.B.  If someone didn’t do the proper paperwork, bad on them, but much of the blame should fall squarely on the senior leadership who make it known in no uncertain terms that job performance is not what gets you ahead.  Unfortunately,I seriously doubt anyone above the rank of maybe Captain will be held to account. 

[HossHarris]

16 hours ago, matmacwc said:

Just found out a great CC at Shaw's (mid 2000) parents were at the church and didn't make it.  Fuck........

Who?  Pm por favor

[Duck]

Well at least their annual CBTs were done that year and the Wing/CCs slides were all green.

[Champ Kind]

The last time a CSAF was fired we got Schwartz as a replacement. Accountability: got it. But be careful what you wish for. I fear that if we go down the path some of you are suggesting it is going to serve as the next shiny thing for elected officials to "fix" in the AF rather than the issues that are frequently discussed on this forum.

[Danger41]

You guys are applying the same logic that you bitch about constantly with sweeping punishments for individual transgressions. You think the CSAF and SAF should be fired because some OSI person in New Mexico messed up? What possible good does that do?

It's awful what happened and the fact that an administrative issue enabled it is heartbreaking. Punish the right people, fix the process, and ensure that there's corrective action moving forward.

[brickhistory]

The only person responsible for this tragedy is the sick motherfcuker who pulled the trigger.

Big Blue contributed by incompetence, but doesn't bear ultimate responsibility.

I also don't necessarily want SAF/CSAF fired now unless there is a chain of firings from lowest to highest.  THAT might get some attention and put lasting pressure on folks to do their job AND be judged by job performance.

But, now that both the HASC and SASC have weighed in to grab some political attention, you can bet some senior heads (er, yes...) will roll.  Because, you know, do something...

BTW, I, as a gun owner am not responsible for this tragedy.  Neither are the millions upon millions of legal, responsible gun owners in this country.  I do want to, you know, do something, because...

It is ultimately about control.  Those who want to blame me want to assert their control.  I'm agin that.

[LJDRVR]

8 hours ago, Champ Kind said:

The last time a CSAF was fired we got Schwartz as a replacement. Accountability: got it. But be careful what you wish for. I fear that if we go down the path some of you are suggesting it is going to serve as the next shiny thing for elected officials to "fix" in the AF rather than the issues that are frequently discussed on this forum.

You're right. The time before that, we got Skeletor.

Emotional over reactions on my part aside, I'm still not going to be surprised if there turns out to be a systemic pattern of failure to report these felonies.

Still, if you're the leader of an organization that sends a convicted felon on down the road without properly managing his punishment, and then said asshole is able to shoot up a church because of your organization's negligence, maybe it's time for somebody else to get a turn at the plate. 

Tricky stuff. We as a country ned to do a whole lot better.

Edited November 8, 2017 by LJDRVR

[Prosuper]

The last time we went on witch hunts the mx folks at Spangdahlem stopped signing anything off on jets and brought flying to a stop, caused one Crew Chief to commit suicide after he got charged with manslaughter by a over zealous JAG.

[waveshaper]

It seems like DoD and the Feds have been dropping the ball on reporting this criminal history stuff to the FBI for a long time;

- 'An FBI database known as the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, which contains information for use in background checks on prospective gun buyers, had only one Pentagon entry for domestic violence convictions as of Dec. 31, 2016. Most federal agencies had zero entries in that category.'

- 'At its core, the problem is that military criminal investigative organizations have too frequently, for too long, failed to comply with rules for reporting service members' criminal history data to the FBI.'

- Etc, etc.

Pentagon Has Known of Crime Reporting Lapses for 20 Years;

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/11/08/pentagon-known-crime-reporting-lapses-20-years.html

[Hacker]

The Lautenberg Amedment is grade-A bullshit.

Anyone who has sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution should have a problem with the government having the ability to completely remove a Constitutionally-protected right to people who have not been convicted of anything. 

It should make your skin crawl every time you even see these forms and it reminds you of the mere existence of this law.

[waveshaper]

 

FYI; AFI 51-201 ADMINISTRATION OF MILITARY JUSTICE;

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_ja/publication/afi51-201/afi51-201.pdf

Section 13N—Compliance with the Domestic Violence Amendment to the Gun Control Act of 1968 (known as “The Lautenberg Amendment”)
13.22. General Provision. The Lautenberg Amendment makes it a felony for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of firearms or ammunition to any person whom he or she knows or has reasonable cause to believe has been convicted of a “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.” Additionally, persons convicted of such crimes are also prohibited from: (1) shipping or transporting in interstate commerce or foreign commerce, (2) possessing in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition, or (3) receiving any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. A “crime of domestic violence” is an offense that has as its factual basis one of the following: (1) the use or attempted use of physical force, or (2) the threatened use of a deadly weapon. One of the factors must be coupled with a crime committed by a current or former spouse, parent or guardian of the victim; by a person with whom the victim shares a child in common; by a person who is cohabitating with or has cohabitated with the victim as a spouse, parent, or guardian; or, by a person similarly situated to a spouse, parent or guardian of the victims. Qualifying convictions include a “crime of domestic violence” tried by general or special court-martial which otherwise meets the elements of a crime of domestic violence even though not classified as a misdemeanor or felony. 18 U.S.C. § 922(d) and (g). The term “qualifying conviction” does not include summary courts-martial or the imposition of nonjudicial punishment under Article 15, UCMJ.
13.23. Base-Level SJA Responsibilities. If an accused is convicted at a special or general court-martial of an offense constituting a crime of domestic violence, indicate this on the Report of Result of Trial. SJAs must also ensure promulgating orders prepared for individuals convicted of a qualifying offense contain the annotation “Crime of Domestic Violence. 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9).” The annotation must be one line, centered, in 14-point boldface type, and one inch from the top of the page. SJAs are responsible for informing commanders of the impact of the conviction on the accused’s ability to handle firearms or ammunition as part of their official duties; briefing commanders on retrieving all Government-issued firearms and ammunition and suspending the member’s authority to possess Government-issued firearms and ammunition; and advising members of their commands to lawfully dispose of their privately owned firearms and ammunition. For additional guidance addressing qualifying offenses, as owned firearms and ammunition. For additional guidance addressing qualifying offenses, as well as substantive and procedural requirements under the Act, See 18 U.S.C. §§ 921 and 922.

[BFM this]

58 minutes ago, Hacker said:

The Lautenberg Amedment is grade-A bullshit.

Anyone who has sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution should have a problem with the government having the ability to completely remove a Constitutionally-protected right to people who have not been convicted of anything. 

It should make your skin crawl every time you even see these forms and it reminds you of the mere existence of this law.

As written, sure.

Completely unnecessary?  It depends...

Speaking from a very personal perspective.

[fire4effect]

13 hours ago, Hacker said:

The Lautenberg Amedment is grade-A bullshit.

Anyone who has sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution should have a problem with the government having the ability to completely remove a Constitutionally-protected right to people who have not been convicted of anything. 

It should make your skin crawl every time you even see these forms and it reminds you of the mere existence of this law.

Last winter an acquaintance in a southern state whose now ex Bat Sh!t crazy wife accused him of abuse had the local sheriff show up based on a mere accusation and they carted off every gun he had down to some antiques from the 1800s. Finally the "system" figured out how crazy she really was and I think it was 6 months later got them back. As I understand it even the deputy who came to pick them up had a suspicion it was bogus but had to do it as a matter of orders from above.

[fire4effect]

On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 9:43 PM, M2 said:

Full supporter of 2A, and carry (to include OC'ing) as much as I can.  Too bad the USAF doesn't understand what "shall not be infringed" means, but as I still have to bring home the paycheck, it's a risk I have to accept.  Otherwise, I'm usually packing a 5.25" XD-M with 13+1 rounds of .45 ACP (plus a second mag).  True, the shooter had an AR and would definitely have an edge on my with my every day carry gun; but at least I would have a chance to defend myself and even more importantly, those I love.
 

I like my XD-M in 9mm 3.8" barrel. Easier to conceal for me and 5.25" in .45 might have someone accuse me of trying to compensate for something. Seriously  my last pistol was a .45 and the mag catch gave up the ghost after many years of use and I searched high and low including Brownell's and no joy for a replacement. So after some debate I went with a 9mm for ammo availability and performance in modern 9mm rounds seems to be pretty good especially +P rounds. My impression is people (military types)are now carrying, very discreetly mind you, even in places traditionally off limits.  That said, lets face it the transition on and off base is a hazard too because the bad guys know that most people coming and going aren't carrying. As I recall back in the 93 a Pakistani killed 2 waiting in their vehicles to enter CIA headquarters. Large arenas that have metal detectors are another example of how you might prevent an attack on the inside but how about people making a long walk to and from their vehicles with money and other valuables at night and the bad guys know they aren't going to be armed either.