F-16 Students skip Phase III

[B.L]

Too old, the AF want's youngin"s so it can project a long term outlook.  Senior Captains going through a basic fighter course would be expensive and thy would only get 3-5 years out of them before commitment is up.  The other elephant in the rooms is the AF knows who got the MC-12's (I assume you are referencing) out of SUPT, not the top grads.

I get the point in we are too old. Assuming we all came from the bottom of our class isn’t correct though. It was definitely a mixed bag especially initially when they started sending dudes UPT direct to the MC12. Either way the Air Force has a problem it will fix in different ways or it doesn’t and we get stupid ideas like 45 hours in a T-6 direct to the viper. Not trying to start a pissing contest just pointing out some hypocrisy in the system.

Cheers!

[Majestik Møøse]

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Some of those MC-12/HVAA/AMC guys would've been fine in a fighter; they weren't all bottom of the barrel, only 1-3 were getting fighters in some of those classes. However, figuring out now who would be ok now is tough. The AF already messed up its natural UPT sorting process 6-9 years ago when they knee jerk shut off all those fighter drops.

Everyone saw this happening from the start, except the fools that made the decisions. 

[Inertia17]

18 minutes ago, Majestik Møøse said:

The AF already messed up its natural UPT sorting process 6-9 years ago when they knee jerk shut off all those fighter drops.

Everyone saw this happening from the start, except the fools that made the decisions. 

And now they are doing the same thing again with FY18 classes...luck and timing strike again.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Inertia17

[LookieRookie]

 

 

Anyone in the know on this?

 

Edit:

 

"A total of 15 officers and 5 enlisted airmen will be selected to participate in a 6 month pilot training program which will leverage technologies such as virtual reality, advanced biometrics, modernized learning techniques, artificial intelligence, and flight training in the T-6A trainer aircraft."

Edited December 1, 2017 by LookieRookie

[MooseAg03]

Looks like we found our first 19 year old F-35 wingman.

[Swizzle]

2 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

 

 

Anyone in the know on this?

 

Edit:

 

"A total of 15 officers and 5 enlisted airmen will be selected to participate in a 6 month pilot training program which will leverage technologies such as virtual reality, advanced biometrics, modernized learning techniques, artificial intelligence, and flight training in the T-6A trainer aircraft."

Yes, and it's real. PCS to Texas hill country. Probably a CSD of ~February 18'. Should be pretty neat, but could get intensive real quick or be plauged by setbacks. The program has AETC/CC backing (naturally). A good and smart dude is helping it work. 

 

[Blue]

3 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

............ leverage technologies such as virtual reality, advanced biometrics, modernized learning techniques, artificial intelligence, ..............

This sounds like one big opportunity for LockMartNorthropBoeing to sell a bunch of expensive gold-plated technology.  You know, the kind of high-tech gee whiz shit that kinda sorta works...sometimes........

Edited December 1, 2017 by Blue

[LookieRookie]

1 hour ago, Swizzle said:

Yes, and it's real. PCS to Texas hill country. Probably a CSD of ~February 18'. Should be pretty neat, but could get intensive real quick or be plauged by setbacks. The program has AETC/CC backing (naturally). A good and smart dude is helping it work. 

 

Are they actually going to fly in T-6s?

[hindsight2020]

2 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

Are they actually going to fly in T-6s?

Sure....if the MIF is U (2+).

[Swizzle]

They've proposed using eye scanning/monitoring, like retna trackers, with T-6 partial task trainers to hopefully accelerate an instrument crosscheck. 

Iterative virtual reality training will probably be extensive in that syllabus, when it gets developed.

They will have a T-6 flying portion.

**they will probably have near constant oversight from AETC HQ

Proposed/goal for new road to wings is 6 months. It's aggressive.

[mb1685]

8 hours ago, Swizzle said:

Yes, and it's real. PCS to Texas hill country. Probably a CSD of ~February 18'. Should be pretty neat, but could get intensive real quick or be plauged by setbacks. The program has AETC/CC backing (naturally). A good and smart dude is helping it work. 

 

By TX hill county would that be Kelly as speculated earlier? Randolph? Bergstrom Intl with contracted instruction? Are these students going to drones like the guy on Reddit thought or is this actually a materialization of the "direct to fighters with no college degree and skipping phase 3" thing? I know this is just the initial experimentation phase but I'm curious about what the prospective goal is since it seems like a couple of different things are being discussed.

Edited December 1, 2017 by mb1685

[matmacwc]

I'd imagine they will try it all.

[YoungnDumb]

7 hours ago, Swizzle said:

They've proposed using eye scanning/monitoring, like retna trackers, with T-6 partial task trainers to hopefully accelerate an instrument crosscheck.  Sounds cool but like everything in the AF it'll be broken and waivers will be granted to proceed without, therefore it won't provide any benefit.

Iterative virtual reality training will probably be extensive in that syllabus, when it gets developed. Same, it'll break and won't be fixed.

They will have a T-6 flying portion. That will most likely be watered down to the point where my grandma could pass it because if anyone washes out that would be bad for someones OPR

**they will probably have near constant oversight from AETC HQ Read: some O-5 who is trying to make O-6

Proposed/goal for new road to wings is 6 months. It's aggressive. And incredibly stupid.  There is something to be said for having downtime to chat with bros and process knowledge and information.  I mean we can push a student through all of T-6's in 45 days (double turn every day), but does that mean they really learned anything?  Pacing matters.

Not going after Swizzle, just offering my remarks/unasked for thoughts.  In the end all I really want to know is this- What are wings worth?  If it's just joining the AF at the right time, then fine, but I used to think it was something more, like, maybe actually being a (sort of) competent pilot.

[MooseAg03]

I remember in UPT being taught that people were more important than airplanes. However, many of the jets we fly today cannot be replaced. We already have a significantly reduced fleet, so what is their plan when we start planting lawn darts on a regular basis? Or we go off the end of the runway multiple times in a C-17? Production lines are closed and we can’t buy more of most of the jets we fly.

[pawnman]

56 minutes ago, MooseAg03 said:

I remember in UPT being taught that people were more important than airplanes. However, many of the jets we fly today cannot be replaced. We already have a significantly reduced fleet, so what is their plan when we start planting lawn darts on a regular basis? Or we go off the end of the runway multiple times in a C-17? Production lines are closed and we can’t buy more of most of the jets we fly.

Well, it's OK if we plant F-16s in the dirt.  They're all getting replaced by F-35s, right?

[ThreeHoler]

I remember in UPT being taught that people were more important than airplanes. However, many of the jets we fly today cannot be replaced. We already have a significantly reduced fleet, so what is their plan when we start planting lawn darts on a regular basis? Or we go off the end of the runway multiple times in a C-17? Production lines are closed and we can’t buy more of most of the jets we fly.

We started planting lawn darts regularly when they started flying them...

/rimshot

[LiquidSky]

4 hours ago, pawnman said:

Well, it's OK if we plant F-16s in the dirt.  They're all getting replaced by F-35s, right?

How else will the Thunderbirds get F35s? 

Edited December 2, 2017 by LiquidSky

[Majestik Møøse]

Unfounded theory with no actual evidence: The efforts to turn enlisted dudes into pilots is a power grab by Chiefs. They will finally have control over actual Air Force operations by controlling the careers of the operators. They want the AF to look like the Army - crusty Senior NCOs calling the shots while mentoring/scoffing at inexperienced officer leadership.

How I know this: the proposed solutions aren't effects-based, they're based on enlisted guys wanting to sit at the cool kids table. Enlisted pilots solve nothing. They won't hang around longer than better-paid officer pilots. They don't solve Delta's production problem (airlines want 4-year college grads anyway). Most importantly, they don't provide the decentralized decison-making ability/authority that we need in complex NKE-thrashed environments.

[YoungnDumb]

2 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

Unfounded theory with no actual evidence: The efforts to turn enlisted dudes into pilots is a power grab by Chiefs. They will finally have control over actual Air Force operations by controlling the careers of the operators. They want the AF to look like the Army - crusty Senior NCOs calling the shots while mentoring/scoffing at inexperienced officer leadership.

How I know this: the proposed solutions aren't effects-based, they're based on enlisted guys wanting to sit at the cool kids table. Enlisted pilots solve nothing. They won't hang around longer than better-paid officer pilots. They don't solve Delta's production problem (airlines want 4-year college grads anyway). Most importantly, they don't provide the decentralized decison-making ability/authority that we need in complex NKE-thrashed environments.

Since you brought up evidence, where's yours?

[matmacwc]

2 hours ago, Majestik Møøse said:

Unfounded theory with no actual evidence: The efforts to turn enlisted dudes into pilots is a power grab by Chiefs. They will finally have control over actual Air Force operations by controlling the careers of the operators. They want the AF to look like the Army - crusty Senior NCOs calling the shots while mentoring/scoffing at inexperienced officer leadership.

How I know this: the proposed solutions aren't effects-based, they're based on enlisted guys wanting to sit at the cool kids table. Enlisted pilots solve nothing. They won't hang around longer than better-paid officer pilots. They don't solve Delta's production problem (airlines want 4-year college grads anyway). Most importantly, they don't provide the decentralized decison-making ability/authority that we need in complex NKE-thrashed environments.

Easy, just put the enlisted pilots under the officers directly, box out the senior NCO's.

[Stoker]

2 hours ago, YoungnDumb said:

Since you brought up evidence, where's yours?

The very first line he caveats that it's an unfounded theory with no evidence. Not much onus for a citation after that. 

[YoungnDumb]

33 minutes ago, sforron said:

The very first line he caveats that it's an unfounded theory with no evidence. Not much onus for a citation after that. 

Well, damn, another case of me not being able to read.

[ViperMan]

1 hour ago, YoungnDumb said:

Well, damn, another case of me not being able to read.

But seriously, not one post on this here internet (anywhere) has successfully addressed the VERY low hanging critique that a lesser-paid individual has LESS incentive to stay in the AF long-term. Read: enlisted pilots have a greater incentive to separate at their first opportunity than do officer pilots. So, given that, how does having enlisted pilots solve our manning problem?

[hindsight2020]

17 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

But seriously, not one post on this here internet (anywhere) has successfully addressed the VERY low hanging critique that a lesser-paid individual has LESS incentive to stay in the AF long-term. Read: enlisted pilots have a greater incentive to separate at their first opportunity than do officer pilots. So, given that, how does having enlisted pilots solve our manning problem?

I've addressed that very point, albeit over at APC. It is understood that an enlisted with access to a job at proverbial Delta (a growing percentage of junior NCOs are attaining a bachelors degree, compared to generations past) at the end of their training commitment has much less incentive to stay than a commissioned officer as the income delta (pun very much intended) is indeed much larger than for the O.

I've yet to see evidence there's a sweeping push for the 11X career field to be manned by enlisted. 

[ViperMan]

11 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

I've addressed that very point, albeit over at APC. It is understood that an enlisted with access to a job at proverbial Delta (a growing percentage of junior NCOs are attaining a bachelors degree, compared to generations past) at the end of their training commitment has much less incentive to stay than a commissioned officer as the income delta (pun very much intended) is indeed much larger than for the O.

I've yet to see evidence there's a sweeping push for the 11X career field to be manned by enlisted. 

I haven't seen the sweeping push, yet, either, nor do I think their is one. My comment is mostly directed towards all the internet geniuses (/trolls) that come up with bright ideas which haven't even been put through the most basic and obvious thought experiment available to someone with half a brain.