T-6s Grounded; More OBOGS Issues

[panchbarnes]

 

What you guys are describing sounds awful.  If it's true, how does it get past the safety office (sounds like significant risks)?  Does this proposed "fix" violate any FAA regulations?

[LookieRookie]

3 hours ago, Sneedro said:

I see the AF has jumped on the bad idea train as it passed through town.  Had a buddy have an inflight electrical fire during our time as IPs in the T-6.  He wasn't right until a few hours after but thought he was perfectly fine, and that was from the smoke alone in the cabin as he was on the emergency bottle.  The EADI or EHSI starts smoking and you are breathing ambient cabin air?  I guess the AF has tied your hands as to the inflight "fix" for that...

 

Take some extra time to preflight that ejection seat and maybe go back to Aero Phys just for a refresher should you chose to fly...  

The plan is if you get smoke and fumes to reconnect to the OBOGS and turn it back on...

 

At least that's the waiver that 19 AF had signed by AETC/A3.

 

It's a real winner.

[B.L]

The plan is if you get smoke and fumes to reconnect to the OBOGS and turn it back on...
 
At least that's the waiver that 19 AF had signed by AETC/A3.
 
It's a real winner.

Great what could possibly go wrong? I can’t get out of T-6 land soon enough.

[DirtyFlightSuit]

Choked out by obogs, kill obogs, choked out by ambient air (electrical fire) turn on obogs... Nope I see nothing wrong here.   It's not like a chain of extremely unlikely circumstances ever aligns and ends in the death of... oh wait...   FML.

[FishBowl]

1 minute ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

Choked out by obogs, kill obogs, choked out by ambient air (electrical fire) turn on obogs... Nope I see nothing wrong here.   It's not like a chain of extremely unlikely circumstances ever aligns and ends in the death of... oh wait...   FML.

 

[asdf]

4 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

The plan is if you get smoke and fumes to reconnect to the OBOGS and turn it back on...

 

At least that's the waiver that 19 AF had signed by AETC/A3.

 

It's a real winner.

This is crazy! What are the pilots and T-6 SQ/CCs saying about this?  I can't believe that this would be an acceptable COA.  Are you guys really going to fly with this half baked plan to just "turn off the OBOGS unless you need it" 

Looks like someone is going to have to die before a leader makes a decision for his people rather than his boss. 

[Homestar]

Did anyone go to the OBOGS brief at KRND Friday?  I missed it.  A WIC TPS guy did some studies on OBOGS physios and was going to get some info out.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Homestar

[Sneedro]

7 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

The plan is if you get smoke and fumes to reconnect to the OBOGS and turn it back on...

 

At least that's the waiver that 19 AF had signed by AETC/A3.

 

It's a real winner.

Wow...just wow...

[Sneedro]

2 hours ago, asdf said:

Looks like someone is going to have to die before a leader makes a decision for his people rather than his boss. 

DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner...

 

So glad I am out of the T-6 world.  I loved my time as an IP while I did it but hearing all this nonsense, thank god that's behind me.  Every day reinforces my decision to punch AD and subsequently stop flying for the AF.  Too much of this insane thinking...it's frankly a surprise we aren't hurting or killing more aircrew out there.  Be smart, stay safe, and don't be afraid to say no if they try to force a bad situation.

[HeloDude]

17 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

The plan is if you get smoke and fumes to reconnect to the OBOGS and turn it back on...

Negative--the plan is to pull the green ring.

[B.L]

Negative--the plan is to pull the green ring.

With a large open hole at the bottom of your cru-60 to let most of the pressure out. If you forget to remove the new attachment there goes your 10 min of O2.

[HeloDude]

Just now, B.L said:

With a large open hole at the bottom of your cru-60 to let most of the pressure out. If you forget to remove the new attachment there goes your 10 min of O2.

 

They are placing a lanyard to the "duck call" to quickly disconnect it after you pull the green ring.  Expect another change to the checklist/boldface (again)--ugh...

[B.L]

They are placing a lanyard to the "duck call" to quickly disconnect it after you pull the green ring.  Expect another change to the checklist/boldface (again)--ugh...

Great. How could they make it more convoluted.

[RunningMan]

So....no spins, cross country, or solos?

[HeloDude]

13 minutes ago, B.L said:

Great. How could they make it more convoluted.

 

Don't ask...I have no doubt that they could.

[DirtyFlightSuit]

19 hours ago, asdf said:

This is crazy! What are the pilots and T-6 SQ/CCs saying about this?  I can't believe that this would be an acceptable COA.  Are you guys really going to fly with this half baked plan to just "turn off the OBOGS unless you need it" 

Looks like someone is going to have to die before a leader makes a decision for his people rather than his boss. 

All the T-6 SQ/CC have an extreme erection on this plan from what I hear and are 100% in support of it.  Looks like we have the right crop of commanders to lead the next generation of Air Force... oh fml...  If there is dissent from higher ups they are shut up effectively.

[matmacwc]

8 minutes ago, DirtyFlightSuit said:

All the T-6 SQ/CC have an extreme erection on this plan from what I hear and are 100% in support of it.  Looks like we have the right crop of commanders to lead the next generation of Air Force... oh fml...  If there is dissent from higher ups they are shut up effectively.

Not if you all start ground aborting, the Navy did this and a few F-22 guys back in the day, just don't go on 60 Minutes.  

[Standby]

Ground aborting for what? If the guys flying air races or Extra 300s don’t need supplemental oxygen, I’m fairly certain the average T-6 sortie doesn’t either. Sack up. 

[BashiChuni]

45 minutes ago, Standby said:

Ground aborting for what? If the guys flying air races or Extra 300s don’t need supplemental oxygen, I’m fairly certain the average T-6 sortie doesn’t either. Sack up. 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by BashiChuni

[jazzdude]

Ground aborting for what? If the guys flying air races or Extra 300s don’t need supplemental oxygen, I’m fairly certain the average T-6 sortie doesn’t either. Sack up. 

Apples to oranges comparison there.

Those guys have very little need to go above 10k. Their airplanes are built to do their stuff low, and their experience levels require less of a safety pad altitude-wise. Even then, to work the airshow circuit, they are getting vetted multiple times by the FAA in order to lower their min altitude for aerobatics. UPT airspace puts you up above 10k regularly for area work. Plus spins aren't authorized below 10k in the T-6. That's a pretty common event in contact. There also wouldn't be much room to do aerobatics in the MOAs, our extended trail, so that stuff would need to be pared down, especially since you're available MOAs got cut in half.

You can make an argument for breathing cabin air, but that's also being pulled off the engine. And they don't know what's causing the problem.

With that, you could just leave seat pins installed and leave the mask hanging, and breathe ambient air. But then ejection becomes a slow process. Hopefully Stan doesn't do anything stupid or you take a bird/have an engine failure on the final turn. Having that mask up protects your face from CFS. Then again, it's not like getting blasted in the face (so to speak) by molten plastic is that bad-not like burns on the face are life threatening or anything.

There is increased risk doing all of this, and the can is getting kicked down the road. Meanwhile, the line IP sees all their safety mitigations being taken away (you don't need external CFS so someone can pull you out; your seat sequencer probably works now; I know you're tired, but we need to increase production so we're doing weekend ops). These IPs see that their safety nets being eroded, and this just add to the laundry list of problems they see with AF, pushing them to punch out of the AF after their commitment (at least that ejection handle still works, for now...)

Let's bring back the mighty Turbomentor! No OBOGS, do everything below 10k, open that cockpit window in flight to fight smoke/fumes, no ejection seat to maintain-just tuck and roll, and beta.

I don't know what I'd do if I was still flying the T-6. The biggest problem I see is that they don't have a root cause for the issue, and are just putting a bandaid on the problem in order to solve their production problem (which in turn, is their bandaid for solving the retention problem).

[Sneedro]

I can almost hear the Tweet's engines whistling overhead once again!! 

 

This "fix" is gonna get someone killed IMO...sorry but "sacking up" doesn't really solve the issue.  Last I checked the dudes at airshows and such weren't having problems with their flight instruments being fly to fail and all of a sudden catching on fire for some unknown reason.  I'll take my supplemental oxygen that will hopefully get me on the ground before the acrid smoke gets too much into my system via my eyes and such.  Not to mention the ejection standpoint...

**disclaimer-I have not flown the T-6 since 2012.   I also have only heard about the instruments catching on fire from current IPs still flying them with at least one occasion my buddy experiencing it who is still flying them at PIT**

[Duck]

Ground aborting for what? If the guys flying air races or Extra 300s don’t need supplemental oxygen, I’m fairly certain the average T-6 sortie doesn’t either. Sack up. 

Please go on and tell us about your vast experience in the T-6...

[Standby]

7 minutes ago, Duck said:

Please go on and tell us about your vast experience in the T-6...

There I was, in the shit, as a UPT student. End of story.

I am just reading a lot of complaints about an issue that seems pretty minor. Plenty of other airplanes out there fly pressurized without the required wear of a mask for the purpose of supplemental oxygen. I hear plenty of stories about guys flying with their mask down in the T-6...why now is there an uproar? If you wear your mask for CFS protection and that’s the sole reason, there’s a fix for that. 

There are a ton of risky things involved with aviation but breathing cockpit air with an emergency oxygen reserve just doesn’t seem to be one of those to me. 

[brwwg&b]

2 minutes ago, Standby said:

I hear plenty of stories about guys flying with their mask down in the T-6...why now is there an uproar? If you wear your mask for CFS protection and that’s the sole reason, there’s a fix for that. 

What do you propose? Burkas?

[Sneedro]

1 hour ago, Standby said:

There I was, in the shit, as a UPT student. End of story.

I am just reading a lot of complaints about an issue that seems pretty minor. Plenty of other airplanes out there fly pressurized without the required wear of a mask for the purpose of supplemental oxygen. I hear plenty of stories about guys flying with their mask down in the T-6...why now is there an uproar? If you wear your mask for CFS protection and that’s the sole reason, there’s a fix for that. 

There are a ton of risky things involved with aviation but breathing cockpit air with an emergency oxygen reserve just doesn’t seem to be one of those to me. 

How many of those other planes that fly around unpressurized without supplemental O2 (the T-6 is actually pressurized) do so with a CFS system and/or ejection seats or do so at altitudes where O2 is required by the FARs?  Have you seen what someone looks like who had the CFS fire with them in the aircraft still?  I have and while I never really flew around with my mask down routinely, after seeing what it did to them, I never flew with it down again.   So aside from the O2 standpoint, it does provide protection for a CFS fire.  Also, I did then and still do think it's a bad idea to fly around with the mask down.  Some still do, but I personally feel like it's a big mistake should stuff go bad. 

 

In addition, even though the T-6 is pressurized, flying around in the mid 20s xc or for whatever reason you end up that high (think high MOA blocks), what happens if you have to punch?  That pressurization environment  disappears very quickly and you are now in an unpressurized situation where those other unpressurized a/c aren't flying around without O2.  I personally think dudes would rather have their mask on with the immediate emergency oxygen vs a flailing mask hanging down (if it doesn't get ripped off) and no oxygen with limited time of consciousness. 

 

After 1500+hrs in the T-6 as an IP, I can promise you I would not be flying around with a mask down breathing ambient air.  If this current "good idea fairy's" plan of a connection to allow the mask up and breathing ambient air takes hold and becomes the current norm while they work the OBOGS issue, I can see a high percentage chance that the AF will see more ejections or worse in the future.  Just reattach to the OBOGS...you may go hypoxic but whatever take the chance.  No thanks...then again I am out of AD and AF flying all together now and see a much bigger picture of life than I ever had when I was in.  I'd personally be much more apt these days to say, "ya not doing that" and walking away.

 

So please explain what the fix is for wearing a mask for CFS protection alone?  There's more reasons for it than just that, but I'd be interested in what you think would fix that.