The new airline thread

[FUSEPLUG]

Am I completely losing my mind, or is the “Leaving the Air Force for the Airlines” thread gone?  Is big blue trying to squash the exodus by quietly censoring BO.net?  We wouldn’t want to allow those still on active duty the resources necessary to make an educated decision about their career paths (that happens during mid-term OPR feedback). 

What am I missing?

[di1630]

“2”...I was just getting ready to post that my preferred post af-career airline just upped their pay scale significantly.

[Karl Hungus]

Perhaps Liquid had it deleted.  I’m sure the workload from giving all those no-notice ground evals for folks talking about the airlines at work was just too much.  

The APC forums are a far better resource anyway.  

[RTB]

1 hour ago, Karl Hungus said:

The APC forums are a far better resource anyway.  

True, but there is so much more crap to wade through over there...

[ClearedHot]

We are checking guys.

[polcat]

Word on the street is that the Aircrew Task Force colluded with the Russians to hack Baseops.net.

[BFM this]

3 hours ago, polcat said:

Word on the street is that the Aircrew Task Force colluded with the Russians to hack Baseops.net.

FBI is investigating, but they won’t find anything, so someone will get charged with lying in hopes that they can flush a quail or two.

[ClearedHot]

We are checking our backup server located in a bathroom in Chinatown.

[Buddy Spike]

1 hour ago, ClearedHot said:

We are checking our backup server located in a bathroom in Chinatown.

Did you wipe the server with a cloth again?

[FUSEPLUG]

[Lord Ratner]

“2”...I was just getting ready to post that my preferred post af-career airline just upped their pay scale significantly.

Go on...

[matmacwc]

Alaska I would guess

[di1630]

Alaska I would guess

Yep, a month ago first year pay sooooked at $56 per hour...up to $86 even out pacing Delta.

Even regionals are up to $40 first year with bonuses which is still bad but up 30% or so.

Just pointing out that the Airlines are recognizing a need and paying for it.

USAF, well, that’d be unfair to non-rated.

Rumor has it the big airlines are about to increase further.

[Buddy Spike]

6 hours ago, di1630 said:

Yep, a month ago first year pay sooooked at $56 per hour...up to $86 even out pacing Delta.

Even regionals are up to $40 first year with bonuses which is still bad but up 30% or so.

Just pointing out that the Airlines are recognizing a need and paying for it.

USAF, well, that’d be unfair to non-rated.

Rumor has it the big airlines are about to increase further.

AA is currenly 86 and going up to 88 on 1 Jan. And 91 in 2019.

[VMFA187]

Saw this posted elsewhere. Anyone able to vouch for its accuracy?

 

[HossHarris]

Delta is > $86 and going up 3 or 4% in Jan 

[Homestar]

28 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

Saw this posted elsewhere. Anyone able to vouch for its accuracy?

 

I think that’s the scale available on dfas.mil

[Warrior]

46 minutes ago, Homestar said:

I think that’s the scale available on dfas.mil

That checks.  Docs also have a 4 year ADSC for having the AF pay for med school....sometimes I think we chose poorly

[jazzdude]

Saw this posted elsewhere. Anyone able to vouch for its accuracy?
 

The bonus listed for oral surgeon looks about right.

The bonuses look like what a doctor could make in just over a year as a civilian out of residency, so even with the large bonuses listed, they still come out way behind. Even worse off than pilots. Throw in the fact that medicine also has pipeline issues (only so many residency programs and spots in those programs), and the military has to compete hard to attract doctors who can make a lot more on the outside, and likely accumulated $200-300k in debt for school. However, the military has probably made little investment in their doctors; probably didn't pay for their med school, and residency is like being a copilot/wingman for a few years.

On the other hand, us pilots get our training (UPT and FTU) paid for by the military, so they've already made a big investment in us (the ~$1M to make a mission ready pilot). And unlike a doctor, where you can bring a civilian in pretty much at any level of responsibility or rank, you can't really do that with a pilot. Unless you do something silly like a direct to T-1 program, then make them an aircraft commander bypassing copilot since they were previously a regional captain...

The Air Force needs to figure out how much it values pilot experience. It obviously values medical experience, and is ready to pay for that experience. If pilot experience is also important, the bonus needs to go up to compete with the airlines. They need to protect/retain their investment, and convince people to stay (That's what I think needs to happen) If they are fine with the experience levels that are being retained now, I wouldn't expect to see the bonus really change. Heck, just change the definition of an experienced pilot and the Air Force will look great, at least on paper. But that would make for some interesting times if a real shooting war kicks off.

[jazzdude]

That checks.  Docs also have a 4 year ADSC for having the AF pay for med school....sometimes I think we chose poorly

The gamble is that the military picks their residency, which then pretty much locks them into that specialty for the rest of their lives. I've met a few military doctors that regretted taking that deal. Wanted to be a general surgeon or an anesthesiologist eventually make $400k/yr after you get out? Sorry, we need flight docs right now, so I guess it's family practice and $180k/yr for your entire post military career. And the only way to switch specialties is to reapply for a residency, and most programs would rather take the younger doctor fresh out of school. And if you did get picked up, you'll have to work for 4 years making $40-50k/yr with terrible schedules. It'd be like deciding who got to fly for a major airline vs a regional airline (with no opportunity to go to a major airline) right after UPT. People would probably still take that bet, and not be happy when it doesn't work out like they thought it would.

 

Edit to add: my brother researched joining the military as a doctor, and determined it was a pretty terrible deal, even though it looks like a great deal at first glance. Pretty much the only reasons to do it was because either you want to serve, or you couldn't get in anywhere else and had no other options.

[ViperMan]

29 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

The bonus listed for oral surgeon looks about right.

The bonuses look like what a doctor could make in just over a year as a civilian out of residency, so even with the large bonuses listed, they still come out way behind. Even worse off than pilots. Throw in the fact that medicine also has pipeline issues (only so many residency programs and spots in those programs), and the military has to compete hard to attract doctors who can make a lot more on the outside, and likely accumulated $200-300k in debt for school. However, the military has probably made little investment in their doctors; probably didn't pay for their med school, and residency is like being a copilot/wingman for a few years.

On the other hand, us pilots get our training (UPT and FTU) paid for by the military, so they've already made a big investment in us (the ~$1M to make a mission ready pilot). And unlike a doctor, where you can bring a civilian in pretty much at any level of responsibility or rank, you can't really do that with a pilot. Unless you do something silly like a direct to T-1 program, then make them an aircraft commander bypassing copilot since they were previously a regional captain...

The Air Force needs to figure out how much it values pilot experience. It obviously values medical experience, and is ready to pay for that experience. If pilot experience is also important, the bonus needs to go up to compete with the airlines. They need to protect/retain their investment, and convince people to stay (That's what I think needs to happen) If they are fine with the experience levels that are being retained now, I wouldn't expect to see the bonus really change. Heck, just change the definition of an experienced pilot and the Air Force will look great, at least on paper. But that would make for some interesting times if a real shooting war kicks off.

Way behind in total salary (maybe), but are you accounting for the amount of insurance required of private doctors? It can be enormous from what I understand, whereas the cost to someone accepting any of those bonuses equals precisely $0.00. You account for $200-300K of med school debt, are you doing the math on $0.00 of med school debt to a mil doc? Difference between these positive and negative numbers begins to add up pretty quickly.

We always talk about bringing doctors "in". Do doctors need to be in the military? Does a base located in city X "need" a whole ing hospital? Why don't we just outsource our healthcare to the civilian sector and pay market price? I grant that there are certain specialities that the military needs for reason X, but we do not need the medical infrastructure that we currently have set up to be able to accomplish our mission. There is an awesome (sarcasm) thread on the CAF Fighter Facebook page that is basically just a swinging dick contest between doctors and 11Fs. The point missing from the whole thing is that there is a separate 'sub-economy' in the USAF wherein pilots > doctors: because mission. So it doesn't matter what the USAF pays doctors relative to pilots. If this was a janitor's union, and our mission was sweeping the hallways of junior high schools, no one would care if some of the "help" who checked janitor's balls (who had tons of expensive education) wanted more pay or "deserved" more pay. The mission is hall-sweeping, not ball-checking.

Yes.

[jazzdude]

Way behind in total salary (maybe), but are you accounting for the amount of insurance required of private doctors? It can be enormous from what I understand, whereas the cost to someone accepting any of those bonuses equals precisely $0.00. You account for $200-300K of med school debt, are you doing the math on $0.00 of med school debt to a mil doc? Difference between these positive and negative numbers begins to add up pretty quickly.
We always talk about bringing doctors "in". Do doctors need to be in the military? Does a base located in city X "need" a whole ing hospital? Why don't we just outsource our healthcare to the civilian sector and pay market price? I grant that there are certain specialities that the military needs for reason X, but we do not need the medical infrastructure that we currently have set up to be able to accomplish our mission. There is an awesome (sarcasm) thread on the CAF Fighter Facebook page that is basically just a swinging dick contest between doctors and 11Fs. The point missing from the whole thing is that there is a separate 'sub-economy' in the USAF wherein pilots > doctors: because mission. So it doesn't matter what the USAF pays doctors relative to pilots. If this was a janitor's union, and our mission was sweeping the hallways of junior high schools, no one would care if some of the "help" who checked janitor's balls (who had tons of expensive education) wanted more pay or "deserved" more pay. The mission is hall-sweeping, not ball-checking.
Yes.

I didn't zero sum the math myself, but my brother who is finishing up med school now did. It comes down to opportunity costs. Doing the military thing is a guaranteed job, with an opportunity for a pension, and no malpractice insurance, but you get paid much less than what you can get on the outside. Or you can go out and take a little risk in the civilian market and make some really good money. Or another strategy some doctors take is just min run their loan payments, live it up, and die with debt. A doctor that just finished up their residency and thinking about joining the military is like a military pilot at the end of their initial commitment: you could stay in/join the military, but financially, it makes sense to go get hired by a major airline/work in a civilian hospital, but there's always that chance you might not get hired. Then again, you won't have to deploy, or move if you don't want to.

All that to say, there no real comparison between doctor and pilot bonuses. Each gets paid what the military thinks is fair, and yet both groups are still undermanned. Saying we (pilots) should get a 100k/yr bonus because the doctors do is dumb. We should be paid enough to make the jump to the civilian world not as enticing as it is now. Then again, would $100k/yr bonus keep more pilots in if the AF doesn't address toxic leadership, doing more with less, and culture problems?

Outsource medicine? What if the local doctors don't want to take new patients, or don't think Tricare pays them enough? What if the only hospital in town goes bankrupt? How many AMEs are out there to do flight surgeon stuff? How about getting doctors to go down range? If people aren't fit for duty, the unit mission suffers. If you want to outsource dependent care, sure, I can see a case for that.

I'm tired of pilots thinking we're the only ones that matter in the AF. Yes, our service needs pilots to accomplish it's core mission, but we can't do it alone. Yes, we deserve to be paid better to help with retention. But we also deserve support functions that can actually support us, so we can focus on flying. The underlying problem is we are not manned or funded to do the things our nation asks of us, but we are too afraid to say we are at (or really past) our breaking point. On top of that, we self impose the ridiculous OPR/PRF system that wastes innumerable man hours- that's self inflicted. We created a culture where failure is not an option, so people will go out great lengths to cover up problems rather than identifying them and solving them, instead of using failures as learning points to make ourselves better.

We can't contract everything out and keep cutting our support functions; we've been doing that for years and we are paying for it now. Finance sucks because they've consolidated to save on manning. Having our own medical capabilities means they should better understand the environment we work in, but we can't attract enough medical personnel. Contract mx sucks. It took Vance a year to get its runway repaired through a government contract, while Stillwater airport 45 min away did theirs at about the same time in 3 months. Why not get rid of the MAF and contract it all out? Contractors already fly some Army airdrops in theater, why not expand it to all airdrops? There's contract ISR already too, so let's get rid of that as well. I'm sure we could find a contractor willing to do light attack. Where do we draw the line at for what must be done by active duty? But hey, just give the pilots a big bonus, and all the AF's problems will be fixed. Scratch that, just give the fighter guys a big bonus, everyone else can be contracted out. I got mine, screw everyone else, sucks to be you.

[ViperMan]

17 hours ago, jazzdude said:

All that to say, there no real comparison between doctor and pilot bonuses. Each gets paid what the military thinks is fair, and yet both groups are still undermanned. Saying we (pilots) should get a 100k/yr bonus because the doctors do is dumb. We should be paid enough to make the jump to the civilian world not as enticing as it is now. Then again, would $100k/yr bonus keep more pilots in if the AF doesn't address toxic leadership, doing more with less, and culture problems?

Outsource medicine? What if the local doctors don't want to take new patients, or don't think Tricare pays them enough? What if the only hospital in town goes bankrupt? How many AMEs are out there to do flight surgeon stuff? How about getting doctors to go down range? If people aren't fit for duty, the unit mission suffers. If you want to outsource dependent care, sure, I can see a case for that.

I'm tired of pilots thinking we're the only ones that matter in the AF. Yes, our service needs pilots to accomplish it's core mission, but we can't do it alone. Yes, we deserve to be paid better to help with retention. But we also deserve support functions that can actually support us, so we can focus on flying. The underlying problem is we are not manned or funded to do the things our nation asks of us, but we are too afraid to say we are at (or really past) our breaking point. On top of that, we self impose the ridiculous OPR/PRF system that wastes innumerable man hours- that's self inflicted. We created a culture where failure is not an option, so people will go out great lengths to cover up problems rather than identifying them and solving them, instead of using failures as learning points to make ourselves better.

We can't contract everything out and keep cutting our support functions; we've been doing that for years and we are paying for it now. Finance sucks because they've consolidated to save on manning. Having our own medical capabilities means they should better understand the environment we work in, but we can't attract enough medical personnel. Contract mx sucks. It took Vance a year to get its runway repaired through a government contract, while Stillwater airport 45 min away did theirs at about the same time in 3 months. Why not get rid of the MAF and contract it all out? Contractors already fly some Army airdrops in theater, why not expand it to all airdrops? There's contract ISR already too, so let's get rid of that as well. I'm sure we could find a contractor willing to do light attack. Where do we draw the line at for what must be done by active duty? But hey, just give the pilots a big bonus, and all the AF's problems will be fixed. Scratch that, just give the fighter guys a big bonus, everyone else can be contracted out. I got mine, screw everyone else, sucks to be you.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but we definitely view the problem in different terms. I don't think that every hospital in the USAF should be deprecated, and I didn't intend to imply that. But, you can't seriously tell me that we NEED a base hospital at Luke AFB (Phoenix, AZ), hospitals in Dallas, San Antonio, Washington D.C., Salt Lake City, all the redundant and overlapping medical facilities the Navy has in San Diego and elsewhere in garden, costal locations with millions of civilians around. Holloman AFB? Sure. Cannon AFB? Sure. There is valid need for certain locations to have necessary support functions where there is no realistic alternative. My point is that we have EXCESS capacity that could easily be farmed out. Tricare doesn't pay enough? Blah, they can fix that with a flick of a pen.

No one (or few) here thinks that pilots alone could accomplish the mission themselves in a vacuum. The point I was making was to say exactly what you said in your post: that it is stupid to compare doctors to pilots in the AF. What's a pilot worth to Microsoft? How bout a Computer Programmer? I'm sure the relative value of each person changes when you swap context, and that is the bottom line: the USAF needs pilots a HELL of a lot more than they need doctors - ANY doctors. Money talks.

As far as finance goes, we could do a lot to streamline and simplify their jobs using technology, etc. I don't for one second buy that they aren't capable because they are understaffed. They need to work smarter, not harder. The AF loves to resist change though, and while I'm full of great suggestions for how they can fix themselves, that's not the point of this post.

[jazzdude]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but we definitely view the problem in different terms. I don't think that every hospital in the USAF should be deprecated, and I didn't intend to imply that. But, you can't seriously tell me that we NEED a base hospital at Luke AFB (Phoenix, AZ), hospitals in Dallas, San Antonio, Washington D.C., Salt Lake City, all the redundant and overlapping medical facilities the Navy has in San Diego and elsewhere in garden, costal locations with millions of civilians around. Holloman AFB? Sure. Cannon AFB? Sure. There is valid need for certain locations to have necessary support functions where there is no realistic alternative. My point is that we have EXCESS capacity that could easily be farmed out. Tricare doesn't pay enough? Blah, they can fix that with a flick of a pen.
No one (or few) here thinks that pilots alone could accomplish the mission themselves in a vacuum. The point I was making was to say exactly what you said in your post: that it is stupid to compare doctors to pilots in the AF. What's a pilot worth to Microsoft? How bout a Computer Programmer? I'm sure the relative value of each person changes when you swap context, and that is the bottom line: the USAF needs pilots a HELL of a lot more than they need doctors - ANY doctors. Money talks.
As far as finance goes, we could do a lot to streamline and simplify their jobs using technology, etc. I don't for one second buy that they aren't capable because they are understaffed. They need to work smarter, not harder. The AF loves to resist change though, and while I'm full of great suggestions for how they can fix themselves, that's not the point of this post.

No worries, like you said, I don't think we're that far apart on opinion, just looking at the issue from different viewpoints. :cheers:

[RTB]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

But, you can't seriously tell me that we NEED a base hospital at Luke AFB (Phoenix, AZ), hospitals in Dallas, San Antonio, Washington D.C., Salt Lake City, all the redundant and overlapping medical facilities the Navy has in San Diego and elsewhere in garden, costal locations with millions of civilians around. Holloman AFB? Sure. Cannon AFB? Sure. There is valid need for certain locations to have necessary support functions where there is no realistic alternative.

Can you imagine how hard it would be to keep Docs if their only options for assignments were Cannon, Holloman or Osan?