The new airline thread

[hindsight2020]

On 12/14/2017 at 9:05 PM, Jaded said:

UPT and IFF are great reserve jobs for airline guys too IMO. 

Your gouge is dated I'm afraid. They just handed down non-flying, individual involuntary mobilizations as part of the conditions of employment. I'm not gonna derail the thread with all the implications this has for this specific and non-standard conglomerate of flying units, but suffice to say the impact of not turning this good idea fairy off will be as close a reason as regAF will get to stop loss in the next 12 months. They're about to break the UPT mission on national TV and they don't even know it. 

If this is still too cryptic for the gallery, get a map of the CONUS, mark undergraduate training locations, then have google draw the punchline in purple dick crayola for you. Or go ask an airline TR the nuances of double commuting because your frau won't get caught dead living in neither. And for the newhire types in the room and to keep it in tune with the spirit of the thread: Raise your hand if you're interested in playing russian roulette with that shiny new DL/UA/AA/SW CJO your wife gave you fellatio over last night, because you told her you're done missing all your small kid's life milestones on account of updating powerpoint slides for a living in absentia. Caveat fvcking emptor.

Not a personal dig at you or anyone, but like my old CAF DO used to say: "the thing about SA is, if you don't have it, you won't miss it....". Game is chess, it ain't checkers. If people don't pay attention they'll find themselves right back on regAF asking WTF happened...

[BFM this]

Huh.  Ok.

So, a guaranteed trip for all my friends, or just forewarned is forearmed type thing?

[Lord Ratner]

AA just revised their projections for hiring down from 900 to 750 for 2018.
 
Highly recommend you get educated on the culture and union drama here before putting your app in. 

One counter point that I think might make it worth the gamble is the retirements for AA. If, big if, the union can get it together in the next 10 years, the opportunity for seniority movement crushes the other carriers.

I will say, their hiring process was the friendliest experience I've ever had.

[Buddy Spike]

1 minute ago, Lord Ratner said:

One counter point that I think might make it worth the gamble is the retirements for AA. If, big if, the union can get it together in the next 10 years, the opportunity for seniority movement crushes the other carriers.

I will say, their hiring process was the friendliest experience I've ever had.

Seniority doesn't matter if we keep these work rules - especially with systems like PBS that often ignore seniority for things like coverage days. Delta and UAL are getting much better movement for more pay and better QOL.  

I do agree though. Hiring and training are awesome here. It's a real eye-opener when you hit the line and are subjected to this contract. 

[Lord Ratner]

Seniority doesn't matter if we keep these work rules - especially with systems like PBS that often ignore seniority for things like coverage days. Delta and UAL are getting much better movement for more pay and better QOL.  
I do agree though. Hiring and training are awesome here. It's a real eye-opener when you hit the line and are subjected to this contract. 

Thanks for the info, it's good to have perspective shared

[Buddy Spike]

1 minute ago, Lord Ratner said:

4 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Seniority doesn't matter if we keep these work rules - especially with systems like PBS that often ignore seniority for things like coverage days. Delta and UAL are getting much better movement for more pay and better QOL.  
I do agree though. Hiring and training are awesome here. It's a real eye-opener when you hit the line and are subjected to this contract. 

Thanks for the info, it's good to have perspective shared

In fairness, the real answer is to just standby and see what happens. If the BOD/Carey can come up with a deal that gets improvements outside of Section 6 as promised to be implemented by mid-January, there's hope.

But if those improvements involve any concessions at all, I would strongly recommend going elsewhere. That is a bad sign for the future of this pilot group, regardless of retirements.

 

[Jaded]

1 hour ago, hindsight2020 said:

Your gouge is dated I'm afraid. They just handed down non-flying, individual involuntary mobilizations as part of the conditions of employment.

Wait, what? If that was part of my post AD job offer I would not so politely say no.

Are they activating existing TRs as well?

[hindsight2020]

2 hours ago, BFM this said:

Huh.  Ok.

So, a guaranteed trip for all my friends, or just forewarned is forearmed type thing?

It's a bit of a distinction without difference if you lose your CJO over it, wouldn't you think?

But no, not all your friends at the same time. Just one friend at a time, which is worse frankly imo.

At any rate, if you're seriously interested in understanding what I'm talking about, google "institutional USAF reserves". It's pretty self-critiquing at that point, when you then start talking about navy reserve style invol mob IA within these special coded units.

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

Wait, what? If that was part of my post AD job offer I would not so politely say no.

Are they activating existing TRs as well?

Got your attention right quick didn't it? Yeah dude, existing TRs as well. Everybody is vulnerable, this isn't the breakfast buffet.  Would you commute to UPT to be vulnerable to 180 day (+41 = 221 freebie for transit) non-flying CENTCOM IAs as a TR airline guy, or even as an AGR with an AFI "deployed in-place" charter back when you signed on the line? Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question.....

 

ETA: The Air Force has lost its fucking mind. I'm just describing the water at this point, I'm not really surprised by anything anymore.

Edited December 18, 2017 by hindsight2020

[Buddy Spike]

It's basically what the Navy Reserve already does.  Good luck with that.

 

[Sneedro]

5 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

In the wake of all of the Christmas drop fiasco, APA had unprecedented leverage. Instead of capitalizing on it, APA president Carey acted unilaterally and secured a deal that only benefits a small number (200% for people who pick up "Designated trips"... meaning two people could be on the same trip and one could be flying his PBS bid for straight pay while the other gets 200%).

 

As a Delta guy I don't know anymore about the AA Christmas fiasco other than I had a good laugh at management's expense when I heard about it.  So, while I give props to the pilots for doing what they did, if that is the agreement with management, how do they still cover the trips?  I mean, if it's "designated trip" and pays 2x ok I can see that getting picked up.  If it isn't 2x pay, why aren't guys saying thanks but no thanks still leaving them uncovered?  I heard a lot of dudes/dudettes dropped their entire month so I am sure some of it has to do with people not wanting to go a month no pay maybe, but still how does that agreement force pilots to cover the trip?  Am I missing something?

 

Ok, back to watching Delta implode over a little snow and power outage (ok a big power outage)!

 

[Buddy Spike]

10 hours ago, Sneedro said:

As a Delta guy I don't know anymore about the AA Christmas fiasco other than I had a good laugh at management's expense when I heard about it.  So, while I give props to the pilots for doing what they did, if that is the agreement with management, how do they still cover the trips?  I mean, if it's "designated trip" and pays 2x ok I can see that getting picked up.  If it isn't 2x pay, why aren't guys saying thanks but no thanks still leaving them uncovered?  I heard a lot of dudes/dudettes dropped their entire month so I am sure some of it has to do with people not wanting to go a month no pay maybe, but still how does that agreement force pilots to cover the trip?  Am I missing something?

 

Ok, back to watching Delta implode over a little snow and power outage (ok a big power outage)!

 

It doesn't force pilots to do anything (although the agreement forced our union to ask and reminds pilots to please cover trips).

Some guys won't pick up trips no matter how much the company offers because they never get Christmas off. 

Most trips in open time for specific dates are 200% (and the list is growing), however, the problem is that those who weren't able to drop (west coast bases especially) didn't get 200% trips. As I mentioned earlier, some guys could be flying 200% while the guy sitting next to them is flying straight pay. It's a terrible agreement.

 

[Sneedro]

5 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

Most trips in open time for specific dates are 200% (and the list is growing), however, the problem is that those who weren't able to drop (west coast bases especially) didn't get 200% trips. As I mentioned earlier, some guys could be flying 200% while the guy sitting next to them is flying straight pay. It's a terrible agreement.

 

Ahhhh ok that was the part I was missing...I had forgotten about the west coast guys/gals couldn't drop their stuff.  I agree that even at Delta, no matter how much the company throws at people some won't fly no matter what over Christmas.  Money cannot buy everything!  Now on the flip side, if the company offered a crisp $20 bill for any pilot who flies over Christmas there would also be some tripping over themselves trying to pick stuff up because as most know pilots are cheap...that's probably the worst part about our union, cheap pilots willing to accept anything and everything if it comes with a pay raise.  Sad...hopefully you guys hold out and send a message to management and the union.  

 

Edit:  Hopefully the pilots who took advantage of the glitch or whatever it was hold out until there is an agreement that any and ALL trips over the designated timeframe are 200% even for those west coasters who couldn't drop anything.  Force management to come begging and throwing money at both coasts.  Not that it will solve everything, I know I wouldn't be flying not matter what, but it might get some interest.  Could be a painful December for AA...

Edited December 18, 2017 by Sneedro

[baileynme]

Sounds like something PYB would do. Could he be back?

Too lazy to search right now but isn’t that two? Careful friends, one more time and we’ll have beetlejuiced ourselves.

[FUSEPLUG]

 

On another note... SWA app window opened this morning.  Numbers from the training center have been 750 to upwards of 1000 for 2018.  I think the lower is the most recent estimate.  As always, subject to change.

Edited December 20, 2017 by FUSEPLUG

[BashiChuni]

On 12/17/2017 at 4:25 PM, hindsight2020 said:

They're about to break the UPT mission on national TV and they don't even know it. 

 

ah but haven't you heard!? they are going to take a high school grad and 6 months later <BOOM> F-35 wingman!!!!!!

and do it with AI/SIMS so no IPs needed!!!!

 

[SocialD]

On 12/17/2017 at 6:36 PM, Buddy Spike said:

Seniority doesn't matter if we keep these work rules - especially with systems like PBS that often ignore seniority for things like coverage days. Delta and UAL are getting much better movement for more pay and better QOL.  

As someone who has bid under line of time (albeit briefly) and now PBS, I would take PBS every time.  I have found it far superior to LOT wrt to the individual scheduling.  When I was at AAL, I basically had to pick between a number of equally shitty short call reserve lines.  Under PBS, I have much more control over days off, and the number of on call days in a block.  Coverage does suck but is a necessary evil, and can be kept under control wth some contract language.  I'm not sure of AALs PBS, but our coverage does honor seniority.  Sometimes it doesn't seem that way, but it's usually a result of an underlying conflict (FAR117, etc..).  A decent portion of my QOL you mention (for DAL), is based on having PBS.  The huge downside for pilots, is it's efficiency.  This means, without proper contract language, fewer pilots on the seniority list.                   

Other than that, I agree that AAL has a long way to go wrt QOL issues.  

[Buddy Spike]

1 minute ago, SocialD said:

As someone who has bid under line of time (albeit briefly) and now PBS, I would take PBS every time.  I have found it far superior to LOT wrt to the individual scheduling.  When I was at AAL, I basically had to pick between a number of equally shitty short call reserve lines.  Under PBS, I have much more control over days off, and the number of on call days in a block.  Coverage does suck but is a necessary evil, and can be kept under control wth some contract language.  I'm not sure of AALs PBS, but our coverage does honor seniority.  Sometimes it doesn't seem that way, but it's usually a result of an underlying conflict (FAR117, etc..).  A decent portion of my QOL you mention (for DAL), is based on having PBS.  The huge downside for pilots, is it's efficiency.  This means, without proper contract language, fewer pilots on the seniority list.                   

Other than that, I agree that AAL has a long way to go wrt QOL issues.  

It's not necessarily PBS as a system. It's OUR PBS system. As with everything else, they went with the lowest bidder and problems abound. December was our first month getting awards on time since September. It's a running joke around here. 

[MDDieselPilot]

22 hours ago, FUSEPLUG said:

On another note... SWA app window opened this morning.  Numbers from the training center have been 750 to upwards of 1000 for 2018.  I think the lower is the most recent estimate.  As always, subject to change.

 

Good luck to anyone applying..

 

I'll stay in my shitty rowboat of being stuck AD for the long haul.. late to UPT, current in a shit non-flying assignment with few options back to the flying world.. Feels like all the good airline jobs are getting snagged.  I'm sure when I retire I'll at least be able to get a flight attendant job somewhere.  Anyone like their coffee extra strong?

/crying myself a river

[Hacker]

1 hour ago, SocialD said:

As someone who has bid under line of time (albeit briefly) and now PBS, I would take PBS every time.

At my airline, allowing PBS to arrive on property to replace line bidding would destroy the real benefit of our vacation system.  PBS would simply efficiently schedule a reduced-block set of trips around the footprint of my vacation days/hours.

Screw that.  Efficiency benefits the company, not me or my bank account.

PBS is ass.

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, Hacker said:

At my airline, allowing PBS to arrive on property to replace line bidding would destroy the real benefit of our vacation system.  PBS would simply efficiently schedule a reduced-block set of trips around the footprint of my vacation days/hours.

Screw that.  Efficiency benefits the company, not me or my bank account.

PBS is ass.

The pilots hold the power of allowing PBS on property or not, and what you're talking about is contract language and computer code.    What if PBS built your line (how YOU wanted...not the company), THEN as the final step, added in vacation and dropped everything it touched?  Would PBS still be ass?  Under LOT, the company builds the trips and the lines of time...under PBS the company builds the trips and the pilot builds the line.

On reserve, I have found PBS to be great.  At 93% in my seat, I was able to get all weekends off in Jan, and was able to limit my on call days to 4 day blocks.  Given that the shortest trips are 3 days, but a majority are >4 days (and they're not easily broken up), I have ensured there is just a short window they can use me in each block.  This was definitely not possible under LOT, unless you were SUPER senior and even then, under AALs lines I saw, there was nothing like this.  

Edited December 21, 2017 by SocialD

[baileynme]

Sounds like something PYB would do. Could he be back?

That’s three, here’s goes nothing.

[Hacker]

On 12/21/2017 at 11:54 AM, SocialD said:

What if PBS built your line (how YOU wanted...not the company), THEN as the final step, added in vacation and dropped everything it touched?  Would PBS still be ass?

Yes.

Line bidding allows you to know before hand exactly how the contract language will allow you to manipulate your vacation days (sliding/moving days, among other things) against known days off and known trips that will be impacted. 

PBS doesn't allow you to do that, even if implemented the way you say.  It would still be "surprise!" with whatever schedule PBS puked out for you based on dozens of seniority factors that are tough/impossible to predict, rather than the single seniority factor that determines what you can hold while line bidding (and which it is substantially easier to predict).

I liked PBS when I was at the regionals for most of the reasons you do...but mostly because I'd never worked anywhere that gave me anything to compare it to.  Now that I've worked under both, give me line bidding forever and PBS can lick my taint.

[xaarman]

Can someone explain the new changes at AA?

What is Average Calendar Day? How is it different then Minimum calendar day?

What is the big picture effect here, besides more $$?

 

[SocialD]

20 hours ago, Hacker said:

Yes....

Fair enough, I had the exact opposite experience.  Whatever works.  

[Buddy Spike]

13 hours ago, xaarman said:

Can someone explain the new changes at AA?

What is Average Calendar Day? How is it different then Minimum calendar day?

What is the big picture effect here, besides more $$?

 

Average calendar day at AA means we'll get 5:15 x number of days per trip.  You could therefore have a 7 hour day on day one, 2 hour day on day two, 2 hr on day three, and another 7 hour day on day four and get paid 21 hrs. The trip just has to average 5:15/day.

With min calendar day, the minimum per day is 5 hrs and 15 min. So in the above example, you'd get paid 7 hrs on day 1, 5:15 days 2 and 3, and 7 hrs on day four. Min is much better than average (SWA and FDX have this figured out).

The end result will be longer pairings (more 4 days and 5 days), less commutable trips, and more flying (the optimizer will make it more efficient).  BUT, you should work fewer days per month for the same credit. Won't affect our reserves at all, except that they'll hit 73/76 hours sooner.  Also requires more manning. 

Both are obviously better than our 1/1 (1 leg, sit 30 hours, 1 leg home) that only pays 11 hrs for three days, but it'll involve more work.