The new airline thread

[Tank]

15 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

 

Probation at AA is 12 months or 400 hours and a training event (R9).  Typically by second year pay, as an O-4, you're losing money doing mil.  Third year pay isn't even close.  

With the movement and pay the way it is these days, I can't see why anyone would drop long term mil leave after the first year unless you live at your ARC unit and are commuting to your airline gig and just want to stay home/not care about the pay.

 

Or if you’re close to your 20 year retirement and only want to work one job is another motivator to drop long term mil leave.   

Only working 2 weeks out of the month and not having to worry about your AFRC/ANG job during your time off sounds great!

Edited September 10, 2018 by Tank

[Buddy Spike]

Just now, Tank said:

Or if you’re close to your 20 year retirement and only want to work one job is another motivator to drop long term mil leave.   

Only working 2 weeks out of the month and not having to worry about your AFRC/ANG sounds great!

Valid.

I was referring more to the younger O-3/O-4 types getting out at the 10-12 year point referenced above.  For the younger dudes it will be really hard to justify doing a 3+ year AGR after the first year. 

[Sneedro]

3 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

 

Probation at AA is 12 months or 400 hours and a training event (R9).  Typically by second year pay, as an O-4, you're losing money doing mil.  Third year pay isn't even close.  

With the movement and pay the way it is these days, I can't see why anyone would drop long term mil leave after the first year unless you live at your ARC unit and are commuting to your airline gig and just want to stay home/not care about the pay.

 

Delta is 12 months or 400hrs, and 3 CPO new hire meetings.  The last was added because in my hiring timeframe we weren't sitting reserve ever and guys were flying green slips (double pay trips) galore!  Mil pay wasn't even close to what we were making working half the time.  It was awesome, but guys/gals were hitting 400hrs a couple of months in so the company changed it a bit to keep us on probation a bit longer.  I think if I remember it's a meeting every quarter. 

 

As far as those close to hitting a full AD retirement, sure I can understand dropping the mil leave required to get the 20 AD years, but anything more it's exactly like you said, you are losing money and a ton of it!  My second year I dropped a ton of mil (days at a time not long term) trying to fly and stay current and eventually qualified due to mx issues.  Flew 3x in 6+ months because of mx but had dropped a lot of airline trips.  It cost me a massive amount of money that year plus when our profit sharing came that was a double whammy...  Even though I was home every night, the amount of work I was doing compared to at the airlines was ridiculous.  Even my wife was fed up with it.  Now I don't fly for the AF anymore and instead do ground work.  Couldn't be happier!  I fly enough for the airlines and work my mil around it.

[Gazmo]

Yes you can legally do this but every airline is different.  At my airline you will then start your probationary period where you left off (seen it happen which catches some off guard because they thought they would be good to go when they returned).  Aside from maybe deploying or being activated, I made as much on first year pay while I was an ART.  I could still do my TR stuff to make up that part of the reserve pay.  The only difference was I worked maybe half as much.  First year pay can be a kick in the junk off of active duty but coming from an ART job?  Not much difference other than the extra free time you have as an airline guy.
 
Get through the probationary period...then if you want to drop long term mil to avoid "lower" pay or seniority, go for it but understand doing so could be F-ing your buddies as others have said.  Airlines love retired mil dudes so they can say they are military friendly.  With all the shenanigans of people dropping long term mil as soon as they are hired, well I think the airlines are getting annoyed at active reserves because they are trying to harass mil guys more within the restrictions of the law obviously.  I have a lot of buddies still in the military hoping to get hired when they punch.  I am just one of thousands at my airline but I am not going to do stuff that could hurt their chances.  

Things are different in the ART world these days. They are handing out 25% bonuses. That's about $150k per year in ART pay alone at GS-13 Step 6-7. Not unheard of for O-4/5 types to be grossing near $200k with milpay. I am not at all, however, condoning staying an ART over airlines. It still swings the other way by year 2-3 at most companies working less than half as much.

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[Guardian]

Don’t forget all guard ARTs are eligible GS13. You don’t have to be an instructor any longer. Changed 2016. Ngb wide memo. And if you do a comparison sheet when hired you can go straight to GS13 step 7 if you are a senior captain or higher.

[Gazmo]

Don’t forget all guard ARTs are eligible GS13. You don’t have to be an instructor any longer. Changed 2016. Ngb wide memo. And if you do a comparison sheet when hired you can go straight to GS13 step 7 if you are a senior captain or higher.

How things have changed. Years ago they'd hire every new ART as a Step 1 or at least that's what my unit did. The ART program is such an antiquated system.

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[Buddy Spike]

2 minutes ago, Gazmo said:

How things have changed. Years ago they'd hire every new ART as a Step 1 or at least that's what my unit did. The ART program is such an antiquated system.

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Years ago they were insisting on hiring lieutenants as GS-9s.  (AFRC Baby ART program)

[SocialD]

18 minutes ago, Buddy Spike said:

Years ago they were insisting on hiring lieutenants as GS-9s.  (AFRC Baby ART program)

LOL, I remember hearing about that program when an AFRC buddy said they wanted him to go GS-9.  At the same time, the Guard wanted me to go GS-12 step 1 or pound sand, which was a significant pay cut itself...can't imagine what GS-9 was like.  So I said fuck it, if I'm going to take a pay cut I'll go to a regional so I can build time faster.  Now they're handing out GS-13 (sometimes with a few steps) to brand new flight leads.  With the bonus, mil pay and a few alerts here and there, these dudes are pulling in some good cash.  Still not worth it to spend a majority of your time behind a desk pissed off that the network is down, yet again, while trying to email off that .xls/.ppt you've been working on all morning...all while flying as much as a part-timers.  Last month I made more in a 3 day trip than I would have as an AGR (or GS-13) for an entire month.  

[brabus]

17 hours ago, Gazmo said:

How things have changed. Years ago they'd hire every new ART as a Step 1 or at least that's what my unit did. The ART program is such an antiquated system.

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Still how my state does it. HRO also denies step increases even though the dudes up for them work 10 times harder than all of HRO combined. And they don't understand why all the ARTs are bailing...idiots.

[Gazmo]

Still how my state does it. HRO also denies step increases even though the dudes up for them work 10 times harder than all of HRO combined. And they don't understand why all the ARTs are bailing...idiots.

They've had the chance to make the ART program better. Take the standard 30% pilot bonus out of locality. Add a standard pilot bonus after locality (doesn't have to be 30% but I would say at least 15% of base pay). Then add retention bonuses on top of that. Let technicians use TRICARE Reserve Select. Let us double dip the first day of orders like we used to. Give us a 2% to 1 retirement like ATC instead of 1 to 1. Lower the FERs contribution for Federal Employees back down to something closer to what it used to be (.8 vs. 4.4%).... those are just a few items to start with.

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[brabus]

Better yet, just shitcan all ART positions and make them AGR.  That + bonus is about the only way the ARC is going to have any chance at stemming the bleeding of full timers, at least for the time that the airlines are hiring...which is supposedly 10+ years.  But government standard, they are significantly lagging the fight and will do too little, too late.

Edited September 12, 2018 by brabus

[Scooter14]

Better yet, just shitcan all ART positions and make them AGR.  That + bonus is about the only way the ARC is going to have any chance at stemming the bleeding of full timers, at least for the time that the airlines are hiring...which is supposedly 10+ years.  But government standard, they are significantly lagging the fight and will do too little, too late.

...about 5 years too late. That’s about when we started to hemorrhage our experience. We replaced almost all our IP/EPs with 1Lts. Great pilots, just not IP/EPs.

Over half would have stayed if they could have been AGRs. Oh well, there’s no getting them back now.

[Gazmo]

 ...about 5 years too late. That’s about when we started to hemorrhage our experience. We replaced almost all our IP/EPs with 1Lts. Great pilots, just not IP/EPs.

 

Over half would have stayed if they could have been AGRs. Oh well, there’s no getting them back now.

 

Exactly. This is the perfect (shit) storm with no real good option to stop it at this point. Their only hope is to get some AGR positions to hand to airline guys who already have a line number who wouldn't mind a temporary full-time gig to be "home every night" for 3 or 4 years to get their 20 (if they are close). We don't have many of people in that position though..  

I don't think the AGR gig is going to be the best thing since sliced bread when they are the last men standing and they're getting slammed with all the work.

 

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[nunya]

The ART is a CSO, the AGR already has a line number, and the AD guy wishes he did.    😂

[nunya]

Ok, I'll give you a real answer, at least to the best of my somewhat dated knowledge.

ART: Air Reserve Technician in the Reserves, or just Technician in the Guard.  Salaried GS-XX (with comp time, etc) for the bulk of their paycheck; part-time military member for the other part of their paycheck.  Es are usually GS-6-9; Os are usually 12-13, although I've lost track with the latest and greatest attempts to attract/retain people.  Typically fulfills the basic squadron functions from ARMS to Airfield Ops to DOV to DOT.  My last OG was a Technician.  They are civilians in uniform M-F 0730-1630, not counting gym time, lunch time, etc.  😉  They transform into military personnel (E-3, O-4, etc) after hours if they fly that night, sit SOF, whatever.  In that status, they get paid the same as the part-timers: 1x 4hr block is a period.  Their status on any given day is way more complex than I have time for here.  Sometimes they can fly in civilian status, sometimes they can't.  Sometimes they take mil leave, sometimes they take leave without pay, sometimes they're flying after their ART day ends.  Doesn't matter unless you're filling out the 781 or you're one of them.  Can't get Tricare unlike every other part-time military service member, has an expensive federal pension plan, and can legally work some crazy long days.  Typically must be a part-time military member to hold the ART job, although there are a few Technician only people floating around.  They can work until 50-something as a GS, then they can retire and end up with a federal FERS pension and their DOD Guard/Reserve pension.  

AGR: Full time, salaried, military member.  They're never a GS-anything, always a 1 on the 781.  They get Tricare.  They accrue years just like the active dude.  They can PCS and go to school in res, but that varies between Guard/Reserve and I'm sure local norms.  Certainly not the same PCS lifestyle as AD.  My last ops squadron had ZERO AGR pilots.  WG/CC had given all the AGR spots to MSG/MDG/etc.  I've heard FWs have more AGRs for their alert missions.  AGRs count against Congressional end strength, which is why it's not as easy as it should be to convert all ARTs to AGRs.  They can retire at 20 years with check-of-the-month and Tricare just like the AD dude.  They have a binding ADSC-like contract that historically has been easy to curtail.  WOM is that might be getting harder as there are fewer guys lined up to take that AGR position.  Administratively very similar to AD, but culturally as different as the unit they're in.  

AD: What can I say?  Salaried, Tricare, will PCS, will deploy a lot, will probably try to go to Guard or Reserve at the end of their ADSC.  

All 3 are hemorrhaging people.  None of the 3 can compete on salary or time off work with the airlines.  Obviously if you want to live in NOLA and go fast, LAANG is a better fit than commuting to the MD-80 in DFW.  

Edited September 13, 2018 by nunya

[ImNotARobot]

Ok, I'll give you a real answer, at least to the best of my somewhat dated knowledge.
ART: Air Reserve Technician in the Reserves, or just Technician in the Guard.  Salaried GS-XX (with comp time, etc) for the bulk of their paycheck; part-time military member for the other part of their paycheck.  Es are usually GS-6-9; Os are usually 12-13, although I've lost track with the latest and greatest attempts to attract/retain people.  Typically fulfills the basic squadron functions from ARMS to Airfield Ops to DOV to DOT.  My last OG was a Technician.  They are civilians in uniform M-F 0730-1630, not counting gym time, lunch time, etc.    They transform into military personnel (E-3, O-4, etc) after hours if they fly that night, sit SOF, whatever.  In that status, they get paid the same as the part-timers: 1x 4hr block is a period.  Their status on any given day is way more complex than I have time for here.  Sometimes they can fly in civilian status, sometimes they can't.  Sometimes they take mil leave, sometimes they take leave without pay, sometimes they're flying after their ART day ends.  Doesn't matter unless you're filling out the 781 or you're one of them.  Can't get Tricare unlike every other part-time military service member, has an expensive federal pension plan, and can legally work some crazy long days.  Typically must be a part-time military member to hold the ART job, although there are a few Technician only people floating around.  They can work until 50-something as a GS, then they can retire and end up with a federal FERS pension and their DOD Guard/Reserve pension.  
AGR: Full time, salaried, military member.  They're never a GS-anything, always a 1 on the 781.  They get Tricare.  They accrue years just like the active dude.  They can PCS and go to school in res, but that varies between Guard/Reserve and I'm sure local norms.  Certainly not the same PCS lifestyle as AD.  My last ops squadron had ZERO AGR pilots.  WG/CC had given all the AGR spots to MSG/MDG/etc.  I've heard FWs have more AGRs for their alert missions.  AGRs count against Congressional end strength, which is why it's not as easy as it should be to convert all ARTs to AGRs.  They can retire at 20 years with check-of-the-month and Tricare just like the AD dude.  They have a binding ADSC-like contract that historically has been easy to curtail.  WOM is that might be getting harder as there are fewer guys lined up to take that AGR position.  Administratively very similar to AD, but culturally as different as the unit they're in.  
AD: What can I say?  Salaried, Tricare, will PCS, will deploy a lot, will probably try to go to Guard or Reserve at the end of their ADSC.  
All 3 are hemorrhaging people.  None of the 3 can compete on salary or time off work with the airlines.  Obviously if you want to live in NOLA and go fast, LAANG is a better fit than commuting to the MD-80 in DFW.  

Well said.

[Sneedro]

On 9/11/2018 at 9:28 PM, SocialD said:

Still not worth it to spend a majority of your time behind a desk pissed off that the network is down, yet again, while trying to email off that .xls/.ppt you've been working on all morning...all while flying as much as a part-timers.  Last month I made more in a 3 day trip than I would have as an AGR (or GS-13) for an entire month.  

Nailed it!

[SocialD]

8 hours ago, BeerMan said:

Thanks!

If you're looking for the pay tables.  Pilots are paid at the 2181 (aircraft operator) rate.  Click here and scroll all the way down to the bottom of the Occupation drop down.  Then click on 0558 (0558A = Alaska, 0558H = Hawaii, 0558P = anywhere else NOT CONUS).  Historically, wingman/FL started out at GS-12 step 1 and IPs started out at GS-13 step 1.  As I mentioned in my previous post, they're now giving brand new flight leads GS-13 step 1 (with a tech bonus).  If someone came off active duty with more quals (FAC-A/WO/etc..), and wanted a technician spot, some squadrons have been successful in bringing them in at a much higher step.  Not certain, but I think we secured at GS-13 step 6 or 7 for a guy before.  Each base/state is different so ymmv.  

If I remember correctly you moved up in steps via the following...1 year for steps 1-3, 2 years for steps 4-6, 3 years 7-9.  That said, there are ways to step dudes up faster, but your leadership has to be willing to do that and there are some limitations on how often it can be done.  From what I've seen with the this, is it can vary wildly depending on squadron leadership and state HRO.  It used to be that our leadership rarely ever "quick stepped" (not sure of the proper term), but another Viper squadron in the state did it as a standard practice.  

As a technician you also get 48 UTAs, 36 AFTPs and 15 days of AT orders a year.  These pay cards are worth 1/30th of your base pay + flight pay.  If your squadron has an alert det you can also work that for some extra pay days.  With all these extras, I think our techs are easily able to make an extra 35-50k+ on top of their base GS-13 pay.  We do 4 day work weeks so that makes it easier for techs to make extra $$$.  Also, our home station alert offers unique opportunities to make extra as well...without ending up like Fresno lol.  

If I were are young guy under the new retirement system and I could snag a GS-13 early,  I would consider that over an AGR.  With a step or two, the mil pay, current bonus and double dipping, you could easily be making over 150k as a young Captain.  This becomes an easy decision if you plan on going to the airlines soon anyway.  I'll take the extra cash now over a few extra retirement points (or whatever they get under the new system) for when I turn 60.  If I were a guy coming of AD under the old system then I'd clearly want an AGR.  Just remember that the taxman cometh with civ vs mil pay.   

I should caveat this entire post with the fact that in my 17 years in the ANG, I've been in pretty much every status you can be in BESIDES technician.   I have just learned A LOT about it over the years and have seen it work for some.   

   

[brabus]

Depends on the state, but I'd take AGR every day, even as a young guy unless you're getting hired as a 13 step 3+ with bonus. It takes about step 7 with full bonus to equal AD Maj pay unless your location is getting awesome locality rates. And then even if your take home pay is matched to AD, you still are dealing with all the bullshit of the GS system. 

[Scooter14]

....even if your take home pay is matched to AD, you still are dealing with all the bullshit of the GS system. 

This.

[Gazmo]

Who loves ATAAPS?!

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[xaarman]

On 9/9/2018 at 1:57 AM, HuggyU2 said:

Would you clarify this?  

You cannot fly for hire between indoc and training?  Or ever?  

Not sure I saw this answered, but here is the verbiage in the contract:

--

N. Professional Flying Service

This Agreement contemplates that pilots shall devote their entire professional flying service to the Company, except that nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to prevent any pilot from affiliating with the military service of the United States.

--

Lawyer as you will.

[HuggyU2]

Which airline?  

Dies their FOM address it to?  If so, Does it expand the options?

[SocialD]

On 9/15/2018 at 12:53 PM, brabus said:

Depends on the state, but I'd take AGR every day, even as a young guy unless you're getting hired as a 13 step 3+ with bonus. It takes about step 7 with full bonus to equal AD Maj pay unless your location is getting awesome locality rates. And then even if your take home pay is matched to AD, you still are dealing with all the bullshit of the GS system. 

As a Maj coming off AD, AGR is a no-brainer and you're right it would highly depend upon the squadron.  I'm talking a younger guys who just finished the FLUG in an alert squadron.  We have Captains that still have 4 years until their ADSC expires (thus no AGR bonus for a while) who are making 60-70k more as a GS than they would as an AGR.  They will work on a Friday (non workday for us) here and there and sit a 3ish alerts a month (AGRs sit 4-7/month).  Even with that they only work an extra day or 2 more than most AGRs and sleep in their own beds more than our AGRs (ref...alert).    

 I used to be the biggest hater of technician status.  However, the 25% bonus and alert are game changers.  If I'm a young guy who thinks they're going to go to the airline anyway I'm going technician, cash is King!

Edited September 17, 2018 by SocialD

[nunya]

31 minutes ago, SocialD said:

cash is King!

Is that the corollary to "FUPM?"