The new airline thread

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

2 hours ago, ImNotARobot said:

That’s a good attitude. The job is an apex predator. It needs no introduction.

This HR goatrope makes it look like amateur hour. Stay the course man, and good luck.

Definitely didn't mean that in a screw-my-bros sort of way, if that's how it came across.  I've been chasing this job aggressively for going on two years now and would be glad if those who lacked tenacity to deal with inconveniences like a temporarily broken app system or maybe saw FDX as a hedge for another job elsewhere would step aside and give others the opportunity.

[ImNotARobot]

Definitely didn't mean that in a screw-my-bros sort of way, if that's how it came across.  I've been chasing this job aggressively for going on two years now and would be glad if those who lacked tenacity to deal with inconveniences like a temporarily broken app system or maybe saw FDX as a hedge for another job elsewhere would step aside and give others the opportunity.

My lack of sensing tone on the internet aside...I did not perceive you as being a d!ck. My good luck wishes to you and all is genuine.

I updated 6 apps for 2.5 years in the black vacuum of the airline app websites. I watched younger less qualed dudes getting called, hired, and starting dream careers.

I chose to live vicariously through their triumph instead of being a whiny b!tch. It was the only sane choice. I helped guys were I could, and it was reciprocated when able.

All I mean is...good luck. Once you break through the HR electron war, the job on the other side is TOTALLY 100% WORTH IT.

[soupafly06]

Thanks for the advice so far guys.  Unfortunately for me I’m a pipeline RPA bubba so no hours of any sort count for me except for what I claw out through civilian flying.  I’m also a bit long in the tooth for trying the UPT path so it Looks like the best bet is getting the commercial and CFI done and then grinding out the hours while I can.  I think I may look in to see if I could still apply for a restricted ATP assuming I met all other criteria though, didn’t see any language forbidding it and it never hurts to ask.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

1 hour ago, soupafly06 said:

Thanks for the advice so far guys.  Unfortunately for me I’m a pipeline RPA bubba so no hours of any sort count for me except for what I claw out through civilian flying.  I’m also a bit long in the tooth for trying the UPT path so it Looks like the best bet is getting the commercial and CFI done and then grinding out the hours while I can.  I think I may look in to see if I could still apply for a restricted ATP assuming I met all other criteria though, didn’t see any language forbidding it and it never hurts to ask.

Regionals are a grind for sure, but if you end up at a decent one it's bearable.  Beats flying droids from a shipping container in the middle of nowhere.

[WheelsOff]

I’ve got about 3 years left on my commitment. Previous heavy jet IP and current UPT IP, around 1100 PIC and 2300TT. Looking at some potential guard/reserve options and making the jump to airlines. Am considering trying to crossflow to a new (crew) MWS as a potential 3rd assignment (or in the guard/reserves as a PC option). 

My question is, does it raise any sort of red flags with the majors if they see a dude with decent time in different aircraft, but not quite as much overall PIC time? (I assume I would upgrade to AC a little faster than a younger/less experienced guy, but I’d still only be logging SIC for a period of time). 

I know things will look different in 3 years than they do now at the airlines, but just curious what current airline guys think...

[nunya]

As long as you can answer any Why questions, it will not matter.  I had lots of breadth, less depth, and they let me sneak in.  They did ask about my bouncing around so much, so I told them how cool it was to fly all these different airplanes doing different missions.  They smiled, nodded, and moved on.

[GoodSplash9]

13 hours ago, Napoleon_Tanerite said:

Regionals are a grind for sure, but if you end up at a decent one it's bearable.  Beats flying droids from a shipping container in the middle of nowhere.

I guess I agree with you (hoping to build my hours in the guard or reserve), but there are definitely a lot of $200k+ stateside drone jobs.

[MooseAg03]

I guess I agree with you (hoping to build my hours in the guard or reserve), but there are definitely a lot of $200k+ stateside drone jobs.

Where you’ll work a lot more hours to make that pay.


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[xaarman]

11 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

I’ve got about 3 years left on my commitment. Previous heavy jet IP and current UPT IP, around 1100 PIC and 2300TT. Looking at some potential guard/reserve options and making the jump to airlines. Am considering trying to crossflow to a new (crew) MWS as a potential 3rd assignment (or in the guard/reserves as a PC option). 

My question is, does it raise any sort of red flags with the majors if they see a dude with decent time in different aircraft, but not quite as much overall PIC time? (I assume I would upgrade to AC a little faster than a younger/less experienced guy, but I’d still only be logging SIC for a period of time). 

I know things will look different in 3 years than they do now at the airlines, but just curious what current airline guys think...

Both my interviewers were civilian guys and I’m pretty sure all they saw was “oh another military dude.” Wasn’t asked a single thing.

 

Also I know not all my months will be like this, but if you live locally and bid reserve, there are ways to minimize work. That Chicago snow storm really screwed me. 10 months on property, and I alternate between a line and reserve at my choice. Do not commute!

 

Edit: half those days were deadheads only

Edited December 3, 2018 by xaarman

[Bigred]

23 hours ago, soupafly06 said:

Thanks for the advice so far guys.  Unfortunately for me I’m a pipeline RPA bubba so no hours of any sort count for me except for what I claw out through civilian flying.  I’m also a bit long in the tooth for trying the UPT path so it Looks like the best bet is getting the commercial and CFI done and then grinding out the hours while I can.  I think I may look in to see if I could still apply for a restricted ATP assuming I met all other criteria though, didn’t see any language forbidding it and it never hurts to ask.

You may be tracking this, but if you don't have any mil time other than RPAs, you're gonna need 1,500 hours. The 750 is only for mil flight time. 

[okawner]

Dumb question but need the info...
My wife is an ER nurse working a fairly demanding schedule that is made a month plus ahead of time. If I jump the sinking AD ship and somehow land an airline gig how far out are the schedules posted? Just trying to figure the future out.

United FO schedules posted on the 17th for the following bid period which starts on the 1st +/- (usually -) 1- 3 days so not alot of advance notice

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[Bergman]

3 hours ago, okawner said:

United FO schedules posted on the 17th for the following bid period which starts on the 1st +/- (usually -) 1- 3 days so not alot of advance notice

True but the bid closes around the 10-11th, right?  If you have enough seniority you’ll have a good idea of what days you’ll get off (sts) before the schedule is released.

[JeremiahWeed]

On 11/30/2018 at 11:47 PM, AlphaMikeFoxtrot said:

If I jump the sinking AD ship and somehow land an airline gig how far out are the schedules posted? Just trying to figure the future out.

If this will be a show-stopper for you, then I'd steer clear of FedEx.  There's been a pretty significant shift in the makeup of our schedules.  The junior-most pilots now typically get secondary lines instead of reserve lines.  Secondary lines now comprise around 20% or more of the total schedules available.  The very junior secondaries will still have reserve, so they're not avoiding it - they just get it another way.  But the main thing is that secondary line schedules aren't published until 5 days before the month starts.  Wednesday night you get your schedule and you could be leaving that coming Monday for your first trip (maybe Sunday if you commute and need to leave early).

[nunya]

1 hour ago, JeremiahWeed said:

5 days before the month starts. 

Wow.  That's crap.  There's lots in your contract I'd love to have, but not that!  

Edited December 4, 2018 by nunya

[xaarman]

AA is published on the 16th at noon Central. 

[SocialD]

3 hours ago, JeremiahWeed said:

But the main thing is that secondary line schedules aren't published until 5 days before the month starts.  Wednesday night you get your schedule and you could be leaving that coming Monday for your first trip (maybe Sunday if you commute and need to leave early).

Wow...dudes over here absolutely lose their minds when schedules aren't published by the 15th (2 days earlier than contractually required).  I'd be ok with it if it meant having some of the contractual items that allow for your secondary lines.

[Jon - Trident Home Loans]

Southwest publishes on the 10th. You can then start trading/giving away trips with other pilots and picking up new trips to improve your schedule. You can also trade trips with the company starting on the 25th. Most people don’t fly the schedule they receive on the 10th, but it’s up to you. There is a lot of scheduling flexibility in our contract.


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[okawner]

True but the bid closes around the 10-11th, right?  If you have enough seniority you’ll have a good idea of what days you’ll get off (sts) before the schedule is released.

Well it opens on the 6th and bid packs are available prior to that (not sure how much prior as I'm a line donor) so if you want to look at it that way then, sure, you know your schedule farther out. But not really.

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[JeremiahWeed]

11 hours ago, SocialD said:

Wow...dudes over here absolutely lose their minds when schedules aren't published by the 15th (2 days earlier than contractually required).  I'd be ok with it if it meant having some of the contractual items that allow for your secondary lines.

Agreed.  The fact that we have a secondary process means we don't have PBS which is worth far more to most of our pilots than some having to get their schedules late. 

FedEx doesn't use a strict calendar month - rather, 28 and 35 day cycles (Monday to Monday) that may result in the month in question containing a few days of an adjacent month or months.  This December is a 5-week month and goes from 26 Nov to 30 Dec.  So, it's not possible to say we get our schedules on the "15th of each month" or any other specific date.  Lineholders, including reserve lines, (about 80% of pilots in any particular seat) get their schedules 19 days before the start of the month, so I guess that would be the pax equivalent of getting them on the 11th or 12th of the month.  The "cats and dogs" process that occurs due to conflicts are resolved over the next week with the last of those notifications happening 13 days out.  The final one is the secondaries which I already mentioned.

Obviously some people's lifestyles require early information about their schedules, like our OP.  They would most likely avoid our secondary lines if they have the option.  I'm in the top 40% of my seat and I still bid secondary lines routinely.  I can live with the late notification because I get a huge bump in seniority in exchange.  I'm usually in the top 5 of secondary lines which gives me a very good shot at getting what I want, when I want it and much higher quality trips than if I simply bid a line.  I guess maybe that's why I'm okay with the late notification.  Knowing I'll get what I want probably makes not knowing exactly what that is a bit easier to handle than someone at the middle or back of the secondary pack rolling the dice and have zero clue until 5 days prior. 

Which was the whole point of my caution to the OP - not scheduling 101 for FedEx, but I took the time to type it now, so here it is.

Edited December 4, 2018 by JeremiahWeed

[Lord Ratner]

PBS is great. The only guys at AA who don't like it are mostly the same ones who refused to learn it.

[xaarman]

^ what he said:

actual conversation with a CA:

CA: I hate PBS and the optimizer. It makes me work 4 on 3 off and I always get min time 11 hour layovers. 

Me: You're 30% in seniority, you can do line bidding and get most of the sequences you want. I brought my GF to my 28 hour layover at a Miami Beach hotel.

CA: I’m too lazy to look through all the bid sequence 

Me: You can set standing bid preferences in PBS so you can set it and forget it. 

CA: I don’t know how to do that

Me: The company has CBTs they pay you extra to do 

CA: I’m too lazy to do that

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ some people just want to be miserable.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by xaarman

[Buddy Spike]

14 hours ago, xaarman said:

AA is published on the 16th at noon Central. 

*most of the time.

[Buddy Spike]

21 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

PBS is great. The only guys at AA who don't like it are mostly the same ones who refused to learn it.

The coverage days are crap and there aren't enough layers.  We could've picked better software.

[Lord Ratner]

The coverage days are crap and there aren't enough layers.  We could've picked better software.

Agreed. Though the ability to select exact sequences doesn't exist in other products. I'd like to see 12ish layers. I'm not optimistic about coverage days getting fixed.

Still better than line bidding

[JeremiahWeed]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

PBS is great. The only guys at AA who don't like it are mostly the same ones who refused to learn it.

Everyone has an opinion, so here's a differing one.  It can be a good system but your statements are way too general.  There's much more that goes into being able to say "PBS is great".  Someone just breaking into the airline biz needs to understand that.  Knowing what I know now, if I had a choice of two identical airlines - one PBS and one line bidding, I'd steer away from PBS every time.

Ask any UAL pilot what their first iteration of PBS was like and I doubt you'll find any who were junior who say it was "great".  The top half of the list bid for what they wanted which typically involved a balance of days off and work.  This resulted in an abundance of flying left to assign by the time they got to the bottom half of the pilots.  So, junior pilots were maxed out every month flying 90 hours of hard time.  To make matter worse, since most flying was assigned, there was very little open time so trip trading was close to impossible.  I imagine it's gotten better there, but that's completely up to the negotiating power of the pilot group.

The bottom line is anyone working under PBS doesn't have a choice, so the only option is to make it as good as possible.  That falls on smart pilots negotiating the rules, a good software program to follow those rules and the ability to continually update and improve when appropriate.  If you have those, then as you said, it can be great.  However, PBS will be manpower negative by virtue of the efficiency it brings.  Less pilots at an airline is rarely a good thing.  That efficiency will typically result in less open time and reduce the ability for people to massage their schedules.  In the unicorn, ice cream and blowjob world, no one under PBS would need to massage their schedules because everyone gets what they want.  The reality is, that everyone gets what their seniority can hold - far more strictly than under a line bidding system.  My situation is a perfect example.  Under PBS, I get what my 40% seniority can hold - period dot.  Under line bidding, I can go that route if I want to put minimal effort into my schedule.  However, I also have the option to bid conflicts or a secondary line and use the necessary follow on bidding process used to fill uncovered trips to effectively increase my seniority and access trips I couldn't get under PBS.  Senior pilots get what they want under either system, so their opinions on which one they prefer matter far less.  Ask the real junior guys what they like.  Some know nothing different, so they may not have an answer.  The bottom line is, with line bidding, there are more options available for the junior pilots to create a schedule that suits them than simply relying on what their seniority can hold via PBS.

Trip design and typical schedules at FedEx aren't the same as the pax world, so that may be another reason why it wouldn't work very well here.  When it comes to vacation, there's no way that a PBS system can generate the same results as the one at FedEx using line bidding.  PBS would decimate our vacation system.  I can take the 4 weeks of vacation per year I have now, put them in 4 different months and take all 4 of those months off with full pay.  Do that with PBS.  No pilot at FedEx who truly understands all the implications would ever vote for a PBS system.  That's not out of ignorance or not bothering to learn the system.  The only way it would come to be there is the same way it came to be at many of the airlines that use it now.  It was forced on them during bankruptcy negotiations.   If pax guys have been able to take those lemons and make lemonade, good for them.  I'm happy PBS is working for them.  I effectively use a version of it when I bid for my secondary lines since the process is similar.  Take a pot of uncovered trips, put in for specific trips or general "here's what I want and/or when I want to work" and you get what you can hold.  Everyone doing that at FedEx would completely suck.

Edited December 4, 2018 by JeremiahWeed