The new airline thread

[Bigred]

I realize this question may be highly subjective based on a lot of factors, but is there a pecking order amongst the majors? 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Bigred

[BashiChuni]

3 minutes ago, EvilEagle said:

Agree on the availability date.  A bro of mine was getting out, I told him not to dick around with it; he did.  Delta called and said "congrats your indoc date is XXX day."  "yeah, I was hoping to change that to after YYY day."  "If you want to work at Delta, we'll see you on XXX. Goodbye".

 

He flies for AA now.  

damn! now thats clarity right there thanks!

[HossHarris]

1 hour ago, Bigred said:

I realize this question may be highly subjective based on a lot of factors, but is there a pecking order amongst the majors? 

It usually involves where you want to live as a primary driver. 

[pilot]

2 hours ago, Bigred said:

I realize this question may be highly subjective based on a lot of factors, but is there a pecking order amongst the majors? 

"The best" fluctuates as contracts change. Also part of what is considered "the best" is where your seniority will be for the duration of your expected career, and in what base/equipment/seat. There is no perfect contract at any airline. A contract governs everything from pay, work rules, profit sharing, sick, vacation, trip construction, medical, insurance, scope, hotels, and just about everything else that can affect your pay/QOL/time off.  Regarding seniority, movement is dependent on 2 things: growth and retirements. Only one of those is certain: retirements. Growth can be halted overnight (or be negative if planes are parked overnight if say a 9/11, recession, or fuel price spike happens). Airlines are a for profit company...when planes get parked overnight, pilots are on the street (furloughed). So financial health of a company also matters in that equation, to some degree.

Delta has hired around 5k pilots since 2014. A lot of those are younger guys, and you'll never be senior to them if you are getting in now. UA has hired less than that, and AA has hired even less. Also, AA has hired a lot of Envoy flows who waited 15-18 years to flow, and they will age out sooner than many off the street hires. In other words, a lot of their hires have been older than the guys Delta has hired. The result of that is AA has the most retirements over the next 10-15 years, so movement there will be the most rapid. United is close behind them with retirements. Then comes Delta, then the rest (I think FDX, then UPS). SWA/JB/the others all have a lot fewer retirements. This means slower movement...although likely more growth at JB/Spirit/Frontier which kind of makes up for the lack of retirements, assuming the growth isn't interrupted. Also of note, Delta JVs out a lot of their wide body flying, so AA/UA have a lot more own metal wide body flying, thus more widebodies, thus more lucrative WB jobs in both seats, which will affect relative seniority, even on the NB side. A lot of guys will choose WB FO over NB CA. 

Overall, I'd say Delta's contract is the best, followed by United, then AA. But each has strengths and weaknesses. Delta's profit sharing is insane (16.6% for 2019...extra 2 months of pay). Their sick accrual is also leaps and bounds above everyone else. United has airport reserve (fk that). AA has lots of weak points. But all 3 are in negotiations, and those things are all on the table and could shift. Right now Doug Parker at AA told the pilots they have $150mil to make whatever improvements they want...that's chump change for 15,500 pilots given how far behind their contract is. United has Scott Kirby at the helm hellbent on more/larger RJs. Delta mgmt just filed for mediation, seemingly far apart with DALPA's asks. Right now, the financials of Delta support the most gains (or at least keeping the best contract), followed by UAL, followed by YUGELY debt-ridden AA. Doug says he will pay all that debt down. I'll believe it when I see it...but I doubt he gives AA pilots a contract anywhere near Delta's. But their seniority movement and bases may work better for people who live in say Dallas Charlotte or Miami. 

All 3 have fairly quick upgrades (albeit in less desirable bases), unheard of seniority movement/hiring/retirements, and are all likely going to trade off who "the best" is over the next 10/20/30 years. None has ever stayed "the best" forever.

Southwest and JB have never furloughed, never gone through a bankruptcy, and have always remained profitable, even when the legacies hemorrhaged money, furloughed, went through BK, and all came out of BK with garbage concessionary contracts. 

The pecking order is this: go to who calls first. If 2 or 3 call, go to whichever one has a domicile you want to live at. If you live in a domicile of another airline you want to work at, keep applying there. Commuting to the airline with the best contract is worse than driving to work under the worst contract. 

For anyone considering entering the airline industry, or anyone who is in the airline industry and hasn't read it, I urge you to read "Hard Landing." It gives a nice history of the industry, all the players, and how all the airlines came to be. It gives a good history of who the biggest and best airline has been throughout history. 

In closing, there is a pecking order, but it changes. You won't know where you will end up in that pecking order until you retire. In 20-30 years from now when you retire from the airlines, the landscape will have changed tremendously, as will the pecking order. Best advice: make the best decision for you and your family now, sock money away and live like an FO even when you upgrade, hold on, and enjoy the ride. The only constant in the airlines is change. A lot of the bros getting into the industry in the last 5ish years only know the good times. It will not be good forever. When it isn't good, the pecking order of which airlines are the best tends to change. Delta is printing money right now with unprecedented profitability. But if you got hired there in the early 90s you got furloughed, went through a bankruptcy, lost a pension, took a few pay cuts, and likely never saw the left seat. But if you were hired there 5 years ago, you would be a NB Captain or WB FO today. 

 

TL;DR:

Best contracts: Delta, United, American

Best movement ahead: American, United, Delta

Best financial health: Delta, United, American

Edited January 21, 2020 by pilot

[HuggyU2]

One could argue UAL is an unknown due to Scott Kirby.  The guy is brilliant.  He understands the competition... and my understanding is that he probably has a bit of drive to crush AA for personal reasons.  He also knows a lot of their secrets.  

If he doesn't get sideways with the unions, there is a lot of potential with him.  A lot.  Many think he's the smartest leader in the industry.  

[Danger41]

On 8/6/2019 at 7:14 PM, BADFNZ said:

How early is too early to take mil leave?  Is there such a thing?

I got hired at a major and will start training right when I begin terminal leave.  I also Palace Chased but won't have a chance to in-process with my unit until after airline training.  Would it be frowned upon to finish training, then immediately drop mil leave to head up to my AFRC unit to in-process?  Is there an unwritten limit on how much mil leave I should take in this instance considering I'd still be on IOE and probation?

Went back several pages for this, but wanted to run this scenario by the group.

I am planning to leave AD and go be a Reservist UPT IP. I'm not and never have been qual'd in a white jet so I'd need to do PIT and seasoning (3 months). Basically, I'm planning on 7 months of mil leave. Talking with the bro network, I am planning on doing that after consolidation...good plan? Bad plan? 

My thoughts are to get the line number, indoc, training, and consolidation done but not the first full year of probation. I know that legally you can do it, but I don't want to cause any problems for myself or other mil guys making the switch. Planning this with Delta or United, if that matters. Thoughts?

[EvilEagle]

2 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Went back several pages for this, but wanted to run this scenario by the group.

I am planning to leave AD and go be a Reservist UPT IP. I'm not and never have been qual'd in a white jet so I'd need to do PIT and seasoning (3 months). Basically, I'm planning on 7 months of mil leave. Talking with the bro network, I am planning on doing that after consolidation...good plan? Bad plan? 

My thoughts are to get the line number, indoc, training, and consolidation done but not the first full year of probation. I know that legally you can do it, but I don't want to cause any problems for myself or other mil guys making the switch. Planning this with Delta or United, if that matters. Thoughts?

A lot of guys are doing this now.  The guys I know that work at the mil desks for the airlines think this is the min-run scenario to keep you off the bad-boy list.  Getting off probation fully is the brass ring, but getting through consolidation is where most places won't give you the hairy eye-ball.  To me that makes no sense at all - if you are out more than a couple of months you have to go back through training.  They say training takes 2 years of flying the line to recoup the cost.  Not sure why they would "like it" for people to come out for 100 hours then bounce.  Oh well, just another thing I don't understand about the airline.

 

FWIW, I did the full year - got off probation in about 8 months (@ DAL it's 400 hours of flying or 1 year on the line).  I wanted to be off of probation but I also wanted to know if I'd hate it or not.  That way I'd have 5 years of leave to find something better.  I ended up not hating it at all.  I retire this fall and can't wait to go back.  

[JS]

I got selected for ACSC in res and took off for that only after about 8 months out of training at DAL.  I got a call from the chief pilot congratulating me on selection for command and staff and how it was a big deal to be going to such a prestigious school.  Got back, requaled, finished probation and haven't looked back (nor gotten any other calls or dirty looks about taking leave during my first year). 

[JS]

21 hours ago, pilot said:

"The best" fluctuates as contracts change. Also part of what is considered "the best" is where your seniority will be for the duration of your expected career, and in what base/equipment/seat. There is no perfect contract at any airline. A contract governs everything from pay, work rules, profit sharing, sick, vacation, trip construction, medical, insurance, scope, hotels, and just about everything else that can affect your pay/QOL/time off.  Regarding seniority, movement is dependent on 2 things: growth and retirements. Only one of those is certain: retirements. Growth can be halted overnight (or be negative if planes are parked overnight if say a 9/11, recession, or fuel price spike happens). Airlines are a for profit company...when planes get parked overnight, pilots are on the street (furloughed). So financial health of a company also matters in that equation, to some degree.

Delta has hired around 5k pilots since 2014. A lot of those are younger guys, and you'll never be senior to them if you are getting in now. UA has hired less than that, and AA has hired even less. Also, AA has hired a lot of Envoy flows who waited 15-18 years to flow, and they will age out sooner than many off the street hires. In other words, a lot of their hires have been older than the guys Delta has hired. The result of that is AA has the most retirements over the next 10-15 years, so movement there will be the most rapid. United is close behind them with retirements. Then comes Delta, then the rest (I think FDX, then UPS). SWA/JB/the others all have a lot fewer retirements. This means slower movement...although likely more growth at JB/Spirit/Frontier which kind of makes up for the lack of retirements, assuming the growth isn't interrupted. Also of note, Delta JVs out a lot of their wide body flying, so AA/UA have a lot more own metal wide body flying, thus more widebodies, thus more lucrative WB jobs in both seats, which will affect relative seniority, even on the NB side. A lot of guys will choose WB FO over NB CA. 

Overall, I'd say Delta's contract is the best, followed by United, then AA. But each has strengths and weaknesses. Delta's profit sharing is insane (16.6% for 2019...extra 2 months of pay). Their sick accrual is also leaps and bounds above everyone else. United has airport reserve (fk that). AA has lots of weak points. But all 3 are in negotiations, and those things are all on the table and could shift. Right now Doug Parker at AA told the pilots they have $150mil to make whatever improvements they want...that's chump change for 15,500 pilots given how far behind their contract is. United has Scott Kirby at the helm hellbent on more/larger RJs. Delta mgmt just filed for mediation, seemingly far apart with DALPA's asks. Right now, the financials of Delta support the most gains (or at least keeping the best contract), followed by UAL, followed by YUGELY debt-ridden AA. Doug says he will pay all that debt down. I'll believe it when I see it...but I doubt he gives AA pilots a contract anywhere near Delta's. But their seniority movement and bases may work better for people who live in say Dallas Charlotte or Miami. 

All 3 have fairly quick upgrades (albeit in less desirable bases), unheard of seniority movement/hiring/retirements, and are all likely going to trade off who "the best" is over the next 10/20/30 years. None has ever stayed "the best" forever.

Southwest and JB have never furloughed, never gone through a bankruptcy, and have always remained profitable, even when the legacies hemorrhaged money, furloughed, went through BK, and all came out of BK with garbage concessionary contracts. 

The pecking order is this: go to who calls first. If 2 or 3 call, go to whichever one has a domicile you want to live at. If you live in a domicile of another airline you want to work at, keep applying there. Commuting to the airline with the best contract is worse than driving to work under the worst contract. 

For anyone considering entering the airline industry, or anyone who is in the airline industry and hasn't read it, I urge you to read "Hard Landing." It gives a nice history of the industry, all the players, and how all the airlines came to be. It gives a good history of who the biggest and best airline has been throughout history. 

In closing, there is a pecking order, but it changes. You won't know where you will end up in that pecking order until you retire. In 20-30 years from now when you retire from the airlines, the landscape will have changed tremendously, as will the pecking order. Best advice: make the best decision for you and your family now, sock money away and live like an FO even when you upgrade, hold on, and enjoy the ride. The only constant in the airlines is change. A lot of the bros getting into the industry in the last 5ish years only know the good times. It will not be good forever. When it isn't good, the pecking order of which airlines are the best tends to change. Delta is printing money right now with unprecedented profitability. But if you got hired there in the early 90s you got furloughed, went through a bankruptcy, lost a pension, took a few pay cuts, and likely never saw the left seat. But if you were hired there 5 years ago, you would be a NB Captain or WB FO today. 

 

TL;DR:

Best contracts: Delta, United, American

Best movement ahead: American, United, Delta

Best financial health: Delta, United, American

Really good, comprehensive summary.  I have heard bits and pieces of what you said above, but that's a great report.  I have had more than one jumpseater shoot the shit with me about the above issues, and yes, it depends on the contract, relative movement, etc.  Seems the SW guys (and cargo FedEx/UPS) guys are real happy with their lives and their company.  I had a few United guys complement Delta on how well Delta actually wants to run an airline. 

So, yeah, I personally would prioritize if the company had a base near home (the wife's home, that is).  Non-commuting is a life changer.  2nd, I would try for an "old" company with the quickest retirements coming - AA, then United.  Third I would look at some of the other things like pay, QOL, etc. 

[SocialD]

11 hours ago, JS said:

I got selected for ACSC in res and took off for that only after about 8 months out of training at DAL.  I got a call from the chief pilot congratulating me on selection for command and staff and how it was a big deal to be going to such a prestigious school.  Got back, requaled, finished probation and haven't looked back (nor gotten any other calls or dirty looks about taking leave during my first year). 

 

 

But seriously, glad you had a good experience.  I've never had any issues other than just trying to get the mil leave lady to understand my combo of orders/pay cards when returning from a deployment.  My first time out was for a deployment at 8 months on property but I was off probation.  Just got a call asking if I understood how the whole process worked and they pointed out where to look when I returned.  

Edited January 22, 2020 by SocialD

[Karl Hungus]

17 hours ago, JS said:

I got selected for ACSC in res and took off for that only after about 8 months out of training at DAL.

I turned down IDE in residence in order to separate from AD a few years ago... I can’t imagine taking the pay and QoL cut necessary to drop mil leave, move my family to cesspool Montgomery, AL for a year, and attend a fake indoctrination school after a couple years at my airline job.  It would be a serious decline in both compensation and time off.

Was it difficult to take the program seriously?

[JS]

I thought it was a decent program, then again, I'm kind of book nerdy like that and enjoy discussing war and politics with other smart people. 

I went in 2015 before we had our contract and while I was on first-year pay working weekends and holidays.  It was more than a little bump in both pay and QOL to go to ACSC vs endure first 1 and year 1.5 pay and seniority for me.  Also, it helped that i lived somewhat locally to Montgomery and didn't have to move the family the family there. 

Now, I would not even contemplate war college or anything long like that because it would definitely be a cut in pay and QOL at this point.  But ACSC worked for me at the time. 

[HuggyU2]

On 1/22/2020 at 1:54 PM, Karl Hungus said:

I turned down IDE in residence in order to separate from AD a few years ago... I can’t imagine taking the pay and QoL cut necessary to drop mil leave, move my family to cesspool Montgomery, AL for a year,...

If it is necessary to get to a military retirement... especially one where you don’t have to wait until 60 years old to collect... I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it. 
I find my retirement to be very valuable 

[Karl Hungus]

20 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

If it is necessary to get to a military retirement... especially one where you don’t have to wait until 60 years old to collect... I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it. 
I find my retirement to be very valuable 

Sure.  Plenty of ways to get an AD retirement.  Some, like going to ACSC in Montgomery, aren’t at all appealing.  

Sounds like it worked out for JS.  I’m guessing the proximity to his/her family and the lack of moving made it palatable.  

[Karl Hungus]

1 hour ago, joe1234 said:

re: the pecking order---

So, Delta makes a lot of money domestically, has a well run airline that tops the list for customer satisfaction, and their pilots make tons of cash in profit sharing. It's a great place to pick up trips on days off for extra pay, and so forth. What's missing in that is top-end scope. Normally, other airlines like United or American have language in their contracts that say if they own a significant share in another airline that operates in and out of the United States, their mainline pilots are entitled to fly those routes.

Delta has no such restrictions and has used the cash they've been sitting on to buy 49% stakes in foreign airlines. And then, they park their own widebodies and use those foreign airlines to take over the route. They're still banking the profit from route because of their ownership stake, but don't have to utilize their own pilots.

Delta's true widebody fleet is about 6% of their total making at or near the top payrate. AAL 10.5% UAL 12.5% SWA 0.0000% (sorry had to take a shot lol). Of course, FedEX and UPS are going to have the highest percentages because they're cargo.

I just thought that would be something to take into consideration if flying widebody international is ever your intended destination.

All true re: Delta.  In Delta’s defense, they have strong work rules in regards to manning their widebody international flying.  Routes that require 4 pilots are done with 2 CAs and 2 FOs, whereas it’s done with 1 CA and 3 FOs at others.  Creates more widebody captain positions than you’d otherwise expect from the relative lack of widebody aircraft.  Delta (management) hates this.

Management tried to include a provision in the last contract allowing it to paint the 49% owned JVs in Delta colors, with a tiny “operated by AeroMexico /Virgin /Dmitri’sVodkaAir/ etc” on the side.  If Delta could get away with it, it would outsource everything and just be a holding company and an online ticket broker.  

Everything is cyclical.  Go to an airline that lets you drive to work and hope for the best.

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, joe1234 said:

So, Delta makes a lot of money domestically, has a well run airline that tops the list for customer satisfaction, and their pilots make tons of cash in profit sharing. It's a great place to pick up trips on days off for extra pay, and so forth. What's missing in that is top-end scope. Normally, other airlines like United or American have language in their contracts that say if they own a significant share in another airline that operates in and out of the United States, their mainline pilots are entitled to fly those routes.

Delta has no such restrictions and has used the cash they've been sitting on to buy 49% stakes in foreign airlines. And then, they park their own widebodies and use those foreign airlines to take over the route. They're still banking the profit from route because of their ownership stake, but don't have to utilize their own pilots.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you about shortcomings in our scope, but some of this is a bit misleading.  It's important for prospective candidates to understand the numbers.   I'll also preface this with the fact that we'll likely never be the widebody airline that is UAL.  Also, when looking at the numbers, UAL has about 2k fewer pilots and AAL has roughly the same number of pilots.

Our parking of jets is mostly the 747s (which everyone is parking) and some of our ERs.  While we are plenty short on WB airframes, we're still adding 350s and 330s to the fleet.   A decent amount of our ER flying is moving up to our 330s which is a good thing.   Despite our "lack" of scope and "parking" of aircraft, I've held the 330 for 4.5 of the 6 years I've worked for Delta....yes I'm aware UAL has a 1st year guys on the 777.  We also have 1st year guys in the left seat....there is a reason for both.

 

Quote

Delta's true widebody fleet is about 6% of their total making at or near the top payrate. AAL 10.5% UAL 12.5% SWA 0.0000% (sorry had to take a shot lol). Of course, FedEX and UPS are going to have the highest percentages because they're cargo.

 

Your numbers wrt our "top rate," leaves out the fact that we don't band like UAL and AAL, so our 330/764 pilots are not included in that number.  For some reason, many at DAL are adamantly against banding our 330/764 with the 777/350.   But for reference my 330 rate at DAL is 209/211, my rate at UAL would be 219 and AAL would be 213.  Sure it's a few bucks less an hour, but it's disingenuous to leave them out of the numbers.

Having recently compiled all the data from AAL and UAL buddies, I figured I'd share.  It's tough to really nail down the UAL numbers since they band their 75/76 to their 764 fleet and neither AAL or DAL do.  But a few UAL 75/76 buddies gave me their best guess, based on the number of 764s in their fleet/trips in the bid packet (ie...not all their 75/76 pilots are always getting paid that rate), so take it for what it's worth. 

UAL ~31%, AAL ~20% and DAL ~20% (only 7-8% at the 350/777 rate).  That said we have a few more WB Captains (including 330/764) than AAL and about 50 shy of UAL.  The reason for that is we do our long haul flying with 2 CA/2 FO, while UAL/AAL mostly do 1 CA/3 FO.  Clearly they beat us big time in the WB FO department.  Another factor that helps us along is that both UAL and AAL utilize their WBs on domestic route much more than we do, so that brings down the crew ration a bit.  Having left AAL, my "crystal ball" time to WB Captain is pretty much the same at DAL and AAL.

Again, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it's important to know the true numbers, rather than the standard cockpit rhetoric.  As Karl said...go to the one that lets you drive to work.  

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by SocialD

[Dapper Dan Man]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2020/01/22/american-airlines-philadelphia-pilots-call-for-ceos-removal/

Any folks at AAL have some insight to offer?


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[Hacker]

Don't forget that at UPS *everyone* is on the widebody pay scale and at FedEx about 69% of pilots are on widebody pay.

[xaarman]

On 1/24/2020 at 6:20 PM, Dapper Dan Man said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2020/01/22/american-airlines-philadelphia-pilots-call-for-ceos-removal/

Any folks at AAL have some insight to offer?


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

It's complicated. 

It's important to know the background of AA. It's a four headed beast of Legacy AA, TWA, America West, and US Airways. Everyone has been screwed over in some form.

US Airways and America West merged in the early 2000s. The Nicalau Award, infamous in aviation and airline history, was extremely controversial. It said that the two pilot lists will be blended in the same relative seniority, so if you were 30% on the old list, you'd be 30% on the new list. However, US Airways was a very old airline, and AWA was a very young airline. Therefore, you'd have pilots who had been on property 5 years, being put over pilots who have been on property 20 years. As you've heard, seniority is everything. 

The unions refused to ratify the arbitration decision, and instead concentrated their hate and distrust between each other. This lasted for almost 10 years. With no ability to ratify a new collective bargaining agreement, neither union could move forward and it got nasty as each one blamed the other for their woes. For the line pilots, it mainly meant frozen pay rates and work rules for a decade. Management played off this and rode the cheap labor for years, as the airlines operated as two separate companies under one paint job.

TWA was on the brink of complete liquidation. Not a normal bankruptcy where you renegotiate debt, but at the point where the metal was going to be scrapped to satisfy the debts. Instead, AA bought them, but the pilots list was simply stapled to the bottom of the AA seniority list. One guy I talked to lost 12 years of seniority overnight. So they were pissed.

Legacy AA had something called the B Scale. In order to get a new contract, a contract was signed where for the first 5 (?) years, you were paid less than the A scale guys. No difference in equipment operated or work rules, but you'll get paid less so the pilots already on property could get paid more. "You'll be senior someday" mentality. Then came all the bankruptcies, frozen A funds (pensions pilots were banking on) and pay cuts.

The moral of the story? EVERYONE on property got screwed over in some form. Some pilots cannot get over the past.

So why do Pilots hate Doug Parker? Is it deserved? Yes and no. Keep in mind, he was CEO of America West and rode the CEO wave to the top of AA. 

Some pilots here are so bitter, they want the world to burn. They have been on the wrong side of the airline industry for 30-40 years. They've lost houses, their domiciles closed, been through multiple divorces, owe(d) child support and alimony, did not have the military, and have always had an awful relationship with management. There are no saving this pilot group, you can never make them happy. 

Then we have our contract. The 2013 contract was written to include programs that didn't exist yet. Long story short is they turned off some stuff that was made obsolete in the contract, the replacement sucked, the pilot group wanted it back, the company said OK but we can't program all the stuff in the new contract. Pilot group said we don't care, and thus everything was put on hold to re-activate programs that had been de-integrated and shut down. A scheduling mistake in 2017 solidified the non-implementation, as the pilot group got HUGE work rule changes in agreement for dropping all grievances against the non implementation of the contract. BUT management has implemented items that help them, but none that help the pilot group. 

So, now we're in my personal opinion. Should DP be fired? From a leadership point of view, he's lost most, if not every work group.  Ed Bastian and DAL have figured out labor relations. Oscar Munoz has figured out how to do it at UAL. AA seems behind the times, sticking with labor and negotiating tactics that the worst of the industry invented. They preach a "new American" but hired the same company negotiator that has been at the center point of all the awful combative labor relations (Jerry Glass.) So you have a bitter pilot group, and a management philosophy of more of the same.  So the CEO talks a good talk, but actions are pointing towards another long, nasty "same ol same ol" company culture. Nobody believes we're going to overtake UAL or DAL with Doug in charge. Motivation isn't low, it's more like do your job and go home. There's no real reason to go the extra mile, or go above and beyond. And it seems like management is OK with that. 

So again, should DP be fired? Probably, but only if we can guarantee his replacement is better. And then the new guy needs to clean house of the middle management that still operates like it's in the early 90s. 

Overall, I do like it here. They've treated me well. I live in base, bid reserve, and worked 5 days this month, for 76 hours of pay. I've been on property for 2 years and can hold Captain later this year. But I do union work in Contract Compliance and new hire mentor, so I see a lot of the management-first solutions often, especially in Crew Scheduling.

Edited January 28, 2020 by xaarman

[baileynme]

It's complicated. 
It's important to know the background of AA. It's a four headed beast of Legacy AA, TWA, America West, and US Airways. Everyone has been screwed over in some form.
US Airways and America West merged in the early 2000s. The Nicalau Award, infamous in aviation and airline history, was extremely controversial. It said that the two pilot lists will be blended in the same relative seniority, so if you were 30% on the old list, you'd be 30% on the new list. However, US Airways was a very old airline, and AWA was a very young airline. Therefore, you'd have pilots who had been on property 5 years, being put over pilots who have been on property 20 years. As you've heard, seniority is everything. 
The unions refused to ratify the arbitration decision, and instead concentrated their hate and distrust between each other. This lasted for almost 10 years. With no ability to ratify a new collective bargaining agreement, neither union could move forward and it got nasty as each one blamed the other for their woes. For the line pilots, it mainly meant frozen pay rates and work rules for a decade. Management played off this and rode the cheap labor for years, as the airlines operated as two separate companies under one paint job.
TWA was on the brink of complete liquidation. Not a normal bankruptcy where you renegotiate debt, but at the point where the metal was going to be scrapped to satisfy the debts. Instead, AA bought them, but the pilots list was simply stapled to the bottom of the AA seniority list. One guy I talked to lost 12 years of seniority overnight. So they were pissed.
Legacy AA had something called the B Scale. In order to get a new contract, a contract was signed where for the first 5 (?) years, you were paid less than the A scale guys. No difference in equipment operated or work rules, but you'll get paid less so the pilots already on property could get paid more. "You'll be senior someday" mentality. Then came all the bankruptcies, frozen A funds (pensions pilots were banking on) and pay cuts.
The moral of the story? EVERYONE on property got screwed over in some form. Some pilots cannot get over the past.
So why do Pilots hate Doug Parker? Is it deserved? Yes and no. Keep in mind, he was CEO of America West and rode the CEO wave to the top of AA. 
Some pilots here are so bitter, they want the world to burn. They have been on the wrong side of the airline industry for 30-40 years. They've lost houses, their domiciles closed, been through multiple divorces, owe(d) child support and alimony, and have always had an awful relationship with management. There are no saving this pilot group, you can never make them happy. 
Then we have our contract. The 2013 contract was written to include programs that didn't exist yet. Long story short is they turned off some stuff that was made obsolete in the contract, the replacement sucked, the pilot group wanted it back, the company said OK but we can't program all the stuff in the new contract. Pilot group said we don't care, and thus everything was put on hold to re-activate programs that had been de-integrated and shut down. A scheduling mistake in 2017 solidified the non-implementation, as the pilot group got HUGE work rule changes in agreement for dropping all grievances against the non implementation of the contract. BUT management has implemented items that help them, but none that help the pilot group. 
So, now we're in my personal opinion. Should DP be fired? From a leadership point of view, he's lost most, if not every work group.  Ed Bastian and DAL have figured out labor relations. Oscar Munoz has figured out how to do it at UAL. AA seems behind the times, sticking with labor and negotiating tactics that the worst of the industry invented. They preach a "new American" but hired the same company negotiator that has been at the center point of all the awful combative labor relations (Jerry Glass.) So you have a bitter pilot group, and a management philosophy of more of the same.  So the CEO talks a good talk, but actions are pointing towards another long, nasty "same ol same ol" company culture. Nobody believes we're going to overtake UAL or DAL with Doug in charge. Motivation isn't low, it's more like do your job and go home. There's no real reason to go the extra mile, or go above and beyond. And it seems like management is OK with that. 
So again, should DP be fired? Probably, but only if we can guarantee his replacement is better. And then the new guy needs to clean house of the middle management that still operates like it's in the early 90s. 
Overall, I do like it here. They've treated me well. I live in base, bid reserve, and worked 5 days this month, for 76 hours of pay. I've been on property for 2 years and can hold Captain later this year. But I do union work in Contract Compliance and new hire mentor, so I see a lot of the management-first solutions often, especially in Crew Scheduling.

As someone that just started, thanks. I could see the animosity, ambivalence, and hopefulness and struggled to understand the whys from each side. This is a great 10k foot summary. Overall I'm excited to be at AA but coming from AD my opinion is probably probably skewed.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Baseops Network mobile app

[xaarman]

2 hours ago, baileynme said:

As someone that just started, thanks. I could see the animosity, ambivalence, and hopefulness and struggled to understand the whys from each side. This is a great 10k foot summary. Overall I'm excited to be at AA but coming from AD my opinion is probably probably skewed.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Baseops Network mobile app
 

I was worried about going on a tangent and not answering the question, but after everything I posted, I still do enjoy working here. It is worlds better than Active Duty. I have more time than I know what to do with. And you (not you personally) can either get really spun up about the drama, or you can completely ignore when the door shuts and you drive home. That's the best part about this job. 

The new pilots are motivated and excited for change. The old pilots are retiring in droves. We have 676 pilots retiring in 2020 and that doesn't include anyone who goes early. It only goes up from there. I would have nowhere near the seniority gain at UAL/DAL - I can spend 20 years as a WB CA here at AA. If you live local, our reserve system is the best in the business. Miami flying is the best in the system. Finally, I firmly believe this airline will look completely different in 5 years, much more in 10, 20 or 30 years.

Send me a PM if you want, I'm happy to help with any questions you may have along the way.

Edited January 28, 2020 by xaarman

[Stoker]

46 minutes ago, xaarman said:

Miami flying is the best in the system.

Care to elaborate? Flying for AA there eventually is my goal, but I have heard negative things about the flying there.

[xaarman]

What negative things have you heard? It's Caribbean island hopping.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by xaarman

[WheelsOff]

2 hours ago, xaarman said:

Finally, I firmly believe this airline will look completely different in 5 years, much more in 10, 20 or 30 years.

Just curious if you wouldn’t mind elaborating on your optimism for the company for the rest of us?

This article paints a scary picture of AA’s future:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4319350-american-airlines-is-in-perpetual-state-of-uncontrolled-descent

Not trying to be a naysayer...I want AA to succeed. It’s one of my top picks due to domicile locations where family lives. Just get nervous when I read articles that paint a dark sky...

[HuggyU2]

3 hours ago, xaarman said:

Miami flying is the best in the system. 

As with many things "airline", beauty is in the eye of the beholder.