The new airline thread

[HuggyU2]

How do you (and would you?) mandate mask usage on a 5 hours transcon?

How about a 15 hour flight to Sydney?  

Can you remove the mask for 15 minutes so you can eat?  What about the beverage service?  Can people hang their nose over the mask?  What kind of material does the mask have to be, or what thickness?  

I skeptical that there is a common sense way to implement this, and I admit am against the idea of yet another Federal rule imposed on the masses... one that I believe is as ineffective as the TSA.  

Edited May 20, 2020 by HuggyU2

[pcola]

Lots of countries have mandatory mask wearing policies. We don’t want to be like them.


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[FourFans]

How is it that I haven't heard a single COA involving COVID antibody testing, yet I can get tested for free by donating blood.  Seems like we're missing the simplest answer for a large part of the aviation population.  If I can carry paperwork proving I have COVID antibodies, shouldn't I be good?  We already do the same thing for vaccinations.  This ain't rocket surgery.

Facts, not fear.

FF

[nsplayr]

It's not clear that testing positive for coronavirus antibodies conveys immunity for COVID-19, or if it does for how long. Seems like the consensus is that it probably does for some period of time but more work needs to be done and more time needs to pass since it is a novel virus. Agreed that hopefully additional antibody testing is part of a broader strategy for how we re-open safely, but I don't expect some kind of iron-clad "immunity card" or bracelet or whatever like there was in the movie Contagion to make one-eyed guys (sts) Kings in the land of the blind.

[Prozac]

5 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

How do you (and would you?) mandate mask usage on a 5 hours transcon?

How about a 15 hour flight to Sydney?  

Can you remove the mask for 15 minutes so you can eat?  What about the beverage service?  Can people hang their nose over the mask?  What kind of material does the mask have to be, or what thickness?  

I skeptical that there is a common sense way to implement this, and I admit am against the idea of yet another Federal rule imposed on the masses... one that I believe is as ineffective as the TSA.  

Same way you mandate pants usage. Sure, you can drop trou if you really want to make a statement but be prepared for some dirty looks from your fellow pax and probably an invite to not fly on that airline anymore. Yes, you can take the mask off to eat/drink. Then you put it back on. Doesn’t seem so difficult. We can argue efficacy all we want but you won’t convince me that a face covering won’t at least prevent a few people from getting sick after seeing how many people will hack their lungs up without even bothering to cover their face with their hand. Wearing a mask seems pretty easy and un-intrusive to me and I’m baffled that this is the hill so many want to defend to the death. Yeah, yeah, slippery slopes and all that. It’s a public health crisis. Just wear a freaking mask for a few months.  

[SurelySerious]

50 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

It's not clear that testing positive for coronavirus antibodies conveys immunity for COVID-19, or if it does for how long. Seems like the consensus is that it probably does for some period of time but more work needs to be done and more time needs to pass since it is a novel virus. Agreed that hopefully additional antibody testing is part of a broader strategy for how we re-open safely, but I don't expect some kind of iron-clad "immunity card" or bracelet or whatever like there was in the movie Contagion to make one-eyed guys (sts) Kings in the land of the blind.

So if having anti bodies doesn’t necessarily help, why are we waiting on a vaccine?

[BashiChuni]

masks are such bullshit

"but it couldn't hurt"

lots of things "couldnt hurt" but we dont fucking do them.

its about power and control now, NOT public health.

[JBueno]

Right now, it seems like masks are what customers want. Even if it’s smoke and mirrors, whatever. If it means they come back faster, great. Hang it up next to the tie when the door is closed.

[nsplayr]

2 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

So if having anti bodies doesn’t necessarily help, why are we waiting on a vaccine?

It's not that antibodies don't help, they do. Like you said, that's the basis of most vaccines. It's just that science is hard and it takes time to figure things out with enough peer-reviewed certainty to make policy based on them. What level of antibody response is necessary to confer immunity? How long does that immunity last? Do antibodies developed from exposure to slightly different coronaviruses work against SARS-COV-2? Great questions, I'll let the scientists find the answers.

Same goes for the masks. Honestly I think it was a pretty big own-goal was when the CDC said people don't need masks early on. Several other countries who have really suppressed the virus encouraged masks early and often. And I know why the CDC did it, US healthcare workers didn't have nearly enough already and they didn't want an even bigger crush on the demand side, but IMHO masks (when coupled with many of the things we did go) absolutely would have helped prevent lots of illness & death had everyone thrown them on in March.

I've been wearing a cloth mask/neck gaiter out in public anywhere where I'm within 6-9 feet of another person since March 15th and it's honestly the least all of us can do. People who want to re-open the country quickly and smartly and get back to normal sooner (which is most of us!) should be lining up to wear and encourage other people to wear masks.

The emerging consensus is not, "but it couldn't hurt;' it's that masks help. The CDC explicitly says so now which I mean, better late than never I guess. To what exact degree masks reduce transmission, it's hard to say with certainty, but just like warmer weather and being outdoors vs indoors, face coverings seem to meaningfully help stem the transmission of the virus.

Humans > viruses; let's do the things we all can do to beat this thing so we can continue living long and prospering.

Edit to add: This is all more appropriate for the COVID-19 thread: let's not Godwin's Law this otherwise valuable thread about the airlines.

Edited May 21, 2020 by nsplayr

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

masks are such bullshit

"but it couldn't hurt"

lots of things "couldnt hurt" but we dont fucking do them.

its about power and control now, NOT public health.

Pure Tyranny! 

 

[HuggyU2]

Prozac, 

Wearing pants is like masks?  

I guess we are not going to agree on this.  

Also keep in mind that any federal oversight will have to be enforced by... you guessed it... the Flight Attendants.  Like they don't have enough crap to deal with.  

[pawnman]

I view it much the same way as the baker who didn't want to make cakes for gay weddings.  I think it's stupid (both the baker and the masks).  I also think businesses have the right to set their own policies.  So if they want me to wrap a piece of t-shirt over my mouth to make people feel better, I will.  I won't even complain about it.

I know what the CDC says now.  I also know what they said back in March.  So for me personally, I feel like they've burned a lot of credibility.

Logically, I'm just not sure that after being told not to touch your face, making people wear a mask that's going to collect all my exhaled spit and whatever viruses I have in a concentrated form, that I'm going to end up fiddling with endlessly before putting my hands on various surfaces and products, doesn't seem like it's especially helpful.

But...I don't have the "freedom boner" other people seem to regarding not wearing them.  And I swear, I want to slap the next person who compares wearing a mask to the Nazis making the Jews where the Star of David...the whole point was to single them out and make them separate from the rest of the population.  Which is what you're doing when 95% of the population is wearing a mask and you aren't.

[Prozac]

Anyone been to Asia recently? S Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc: all very low rates of infection/deaths. Guess what? EVERYBODY wears a mask in those places. Might not do anything to keep YOU from picking up a virus, but certainly limits the distance that a sneeze or cough will cover, thereby limiting spread. In other words, it ain’t about you. Entirely foreign concept in the United States I know. Seems like a pretty small sacrifice. Plus it has the added benefit of making you un- trackable by face recognition software. So how does that equate to more government control? 90 plus thousand people are dead from this thing. It continues to spread in many areas, yet we need to restart the economy or risk even greater catastrophe. Effective/ineffective doesn’t really matter. Masks will help people have the confidence to go to work/school/restaurants/travel/etc. You anti mask freedom fightin’ patriots really want to be the reason the economy doesn’t restart?

[SocialD]

Circle back to summer 2019, who were pretty much the only people wearing masks back then?  They all wore masks before this and the shit still got out!

[BashiChuni]

ah prozac see that's where you're wrong.

in the united states it IS about the individual.

individual choice/personal responsibility/personal freedom to do what you want

if you don't feel safe around people without masks then YOU should stay home/not fly/not go to sporting events. in case you haven't noticed my man the whole reason for the lockdown (flatten the curve) has been accomplished.

standing by for another made up bull shit goal to justify 30 million people out of work.

Edited May 21, 2020 by BashiChuni

[Prozac]

5 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

ah prozac see that's where you're wrong.

in the united states it IS about the individual.

individual choice/personal responsibility/personal freedom to do what you want

if you don't feel safe around people without masks then YOU should stay home/not fly/not go to sporting events. in case you haven't noticed my man the whole reason for the lockdown (flatten the curve) has been accomplished.

standing by for another made up bull shit goal to justify 30 million people out of work.

Beg to differ. Americans have a history of givIng up “freedoms” for the greater good. I’m old enough to remember when seatbelt use became universal. You don’t hear too many people today arguing against seatbelts, but the debate at the time was somewhat similar to what’s going on today. “Why does the government care how I keep myself safe in my own vehicle?” etc. Well, as it turns out, society as a whole is better off when there aren’t needless deaths and emergency room visits. So guess what? You lost your ‘Murican birthright to choose to go unbelted and somehow we managed to avoid becoming a police state. Banning public smoking would be a more recent example of the same concept. If your individual actions have a negative impact on the public as a whole, you shouldn’t be surprised to see those actions curtailed in some way shape or form. Putting on a seatbelt, not smoking in public, and yes, wearing a mask during a pandemic has everything to do with being a polite, civic minded human being and nothing to do with your government going rogue. 
 

As far as justification for putting people out of work, don’t throw me in with that camp. I happen to agree with your assessment that we’ve flattened the curve and it’s time to go back to work. I won’t naively argue there aren’t some looking to further their particular goals on the back of a hobbled economy, but I might suggest there are far fewer “libs” espousing that rhetoric than OAN would have you believe. It ain’t just republicans out of work and hurting and the VAST majority of Americans are wishing things would get going sooner rather than later. Maybe my idea of logical thought is different than yours but I see widespread mask usage as KEY to providing the public the confidence to do just that. Regardless of what any politician says, nothing is going to really “reopen” without a public willing to put themselves into bars, restaurants, shops, and airliners (the original topic of this thread). So even if you believe masks are ineffective (and you’d be wrong), isn’t it worth a little “theatre” if it gets people back into public spaces and the economy up and running?

[Prozac]

18 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Edit:

Oh and by the way, even Foxnews says wear a damn mask: 

https://www.foxnews.com/health/wearing-face-mask-reduce-coronavirus-transmission-75-percent-study-shows

Re-edit: Double post. Self administered Q3 and additional baseops.net training completed. 

[Hacker]

12 hours ago, Prozac said:

Americans have a history of givIng up “freedoms” for the greater good.

This is the most terrible justification in the entire philosophical pantheon.

[Sua Sponte]

1 hour ago, Hacker said:

This is the most terrible justification in the entire philosophical pantheon.

Really? Last I checked people give up individual freedoms all the time for the “greater good” by joining the military. 

[brickhistory]

Sure is a good gig if you manage to be in the group who decides what that greater good is without the citizenry voting to decide that fairly important question.

Would suck to be on the outs with that group.

Edited May 22, 2020 by brickhistory

[Prozac]

Notice how “freedoms” is in quotation marks? This is because I wouldn’t place seatbelts, no smoking laws, or masks In the same category as voting, gun rights, or free speech. “Well where do you draw the line?” you say. Don’t know but it sure as shit ain’t at masks. Care to make an argument on how wearing a mask infringes on your unalienable rights as an American? 

[brickhistory]

I don't want to.  That, according to my understanding of being possessed of the gift of American citizenship is enough of a reason.

Mainly because I despise being told that I must according to the whims of buearucrats (sp?).  Our administrative state is UFB.

Our duly elected federal representatives and executive branch have not passed nor enacted a law done IAW our Constitutional system.

Therefore, I don't have to.

States may vary IF they've passed a valid law IAW their state charter/constitution AND, if needed, the Supreme Court decides in the state's favor.

 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Asia only wears masks when needed. Less than 10% prior to Kung Flu. It always has been and always will be out of respect for others and common sense when they were sickish vs now they all wear them. When in the U.S. have you ever seen anyone with a mask for the same purpose, gang banging or carjacking you does not count. I don’t know which is right, but American Airlines was packing them in like sardines most with masks except for the mountain folk family (honestly, they probably didn’t know what was going on looking back at it). I chose Delta from Chicago today leaving 6 AM vs UA and definitely not American. Why = Delta, ALL pax with masks and center seats unfilled maintaining 60% fill rate only. Loaded back to front and deplaned row by row with constant intercom chatter “maintain social distancing.” Which is right, don’t know - but I see the strategy. AA $ up front vs Widget is building consumer confidence initially. Also, Bars in a few states (Alaska as an example) booming - we’ll see on the blooming/spike. Either way, time to get busy working.

I was in Japan, Guam, Korea x2, and passed thru Shanghai and back to the U.S. these past 2 weeks. Authorities were discussing a quarantine in Korea for me since I flew into Korea commercially and was to operate next day out. It’s hit or miss on who you get at immigration. After back and forth for 2 hours in the back room I got our handler to book a room at the “Airport Transit Hotel” foregoing my nice digs downtown. Safer bet and hung out with the grumpy FedEx guys locked inside the Airport hotel. Room had no window, tight quarters, etc. good for short layer overs. FedEx “madness” makes total sense if they get stuck beyond 24-30 hrs. One guy was there for 4 days, at least he gets paid more for being in a decent cell and not like the other FedExer in a Singapore cell.

*Note: Heard from an Air Wisconsin (AW)crew member today at the Airport that lead United fella said RJ 50 seaters will be retired. AW has the 50 seaters for UA so they were not happy and fully justified, felt bad for them and the other line/personnel cuts out there. Just info from them, others can give further verification.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747

[BashiChuni]

honest question: why do you think not having someone in the center seat is magically protecting you more?

talk about a bunch of crap.

symbolism to make people feel "safer". good grief.

[AirGuardianC141747]

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

honest question: why do you think not having someone in the center seat is magically protecting you more?

talk about a bunch of crap.

symbolism to make people feel "safer". good grief.

Remember if you recall correctly I said “Don’t know if it’s right” and frankly don’t care. Masks definitely, since humans suck at hygiene en masse. Just giving you reasoning behind Delta’s move to convince the masses or cattle if you will. Maybe better on AA for herd immunity, whatever. My reasoning for Delta to be more specific is I don’t get a center seat AND plenty of room in economy which was not fairly obvious my apologies as a frequent flyer. Oh yeah and I forgot to mention I never check in bags for obvious reasons especially in my line of work; therefore, loading from the back, 60% fill rate = far less struggle regarding overhead storage. I am riding this gravy train and Delta gets our Company $ and I’ll take the miles as much as possible. Mentioning your “symbolism,” nothing new if you haven’t noticed, this whole society these past 20 years plus is “to make people feel “safer” - very well put! But once again, that’s seems to be a parallel strategy historically. Now, if they had add Avocado sandwiches, and even safer spaces (Emirates top rated individual cabin class) sign me up for $49 not a penny more.

9/11 - more TSA screening, flashy hands up screening machines, flight deck door vaults - all tangible events and makes sense and while pax bitch and moan, they began flying again. Virus issues - tougher to convince it seems when you can’t see the enemy. Time will tell, but social distancing has it’s advantages for me right now. 
 

*Chicago and Atlanta not so much ghost towns any more. ATL seemed to be almost a third as busy as it was before Feb/Mar. Looking much better.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747