The new airline thread

[BFM this]

12 minutes ago, FLEA said:

Curious what people's thoughts are on what I should do; advice, etc...

Making some assumptions that the airline industry will have a solid bounce back by the time I'm eligible to get out in 3 years at 13.5 years of service. 

I'm really worried about my PIC time. I've done MQ-9s and staff. I'm on my 3rd MWS now and restarting as a copilot. I have 100 AC hours from my first MWS but I feel like I'm unlikely to finish the tour where I'm at adding more anymore than 100 to that. A lot of the career websites for airlines say that 500 PIC hours in a multi engine turbine is preferred but I'm not seeing myself coming close. Especially since getting PIC time as an AC is difficult since the minute you throw an instructor on board for training you lose the a code. Supposing a hiring environment in 3 years similar to the one last year what would you do? Apply anyway? Or should I start looking into other things? Staying in the AF is not an option for me. Nor is working for the federal government in any capacity.

I value free time more than money but need to make at least as much as I'm making in the AF to sustain QOL. Just curious what other oppurtunity people might see in this situation from their angle.

 

In 3y the regionals will be back to picking up .mil with R-ATP mins.  If you can sprint to an EP qual, you could potentially go straight to a major.

[Guardian]

Curious what people's thoughts are on what I should do; advice, etc...
Making some assumptions that the airline industry will have a solid bounce back by the time I'm eligible to get out in 3 years at 13.5 years of service. 
I'm really worried about my PIC time. I've done MQ-9s and staff. I'm on my 3rd MWS now and restarting as a copilot. I have 100 AC hours from my first MWS but I feel like I'm unlikely to finish the tour where I'm at adding more anymore than 100 to that. A lot of the career websites for airlines say that 500 PIC hours in a multi engine turbine is preferred but I'm not seeing myself coming close. Especially since getting PIC time as an AC is difficult since the minute you throw an instructor on board for training you lose the a code. Supposing a hiring environment in 3 years similar to the one last year what would you do? Apply anyway? Or should I start looking into other things? Staying in the AF is not an option for me. Nor is working for the federal government in any capacity.
I value free time more than money but need to make at least as much as I'm making in the AF to sustain QOL. Just curious what other oppurtunity people might see in this situation from their angle.
 

Regionals or a white jet at pilot training for another tour. Both come with 2-3 years to gain that valuable PIC time or 2-3 year commitment to AF. I would choose the one with higher quality of life. Or guard/reserves.

[nunya]

T-1 then palace chase to T-1 reservist until a major calls.  

[AirGuardianC141747]

Good advice on how to get the credentials to be looked at. Between now and then find a Guard/Reserve unit and start building ties as you transition into the commercial world. Why = you will have a backup income if/when the industry goes South yet again as it has been cyclic. Even folks who had 3-5 years of seniority with a major have been worried if the numbers below them will keep them safe from furlough. Whether or not that becomes fact, the warm fuzzy of alternate income does help. 
 

*If you can stomach the military side when in the Guard/Reserve (different animal, but still military) you may want to consider building active duty points on orders for them/you. Surpassing the 15 yr point of accrued AD points and having already landed your preferred airline (Line Number), most of the airline folks who have ran back to full time gigs (AGR, etc.) during this virus will be vacating such opportunities and you have a good shot at finishing out with an immediate full retirement. 13.5 years is a tough decision to throw away while in good standing. That monthly income in the hand and benefits is hard to beat, but full freedom maybe your best choice and is totally up to you.

[FLEA]

4 hours ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

Good advice on how to get the credentials to be looked at. Between now and then find a Guard/Reserve unit and start building ties as you transition into the commercial world. Why = you will have a backup income if/when the industry goes South yet again as it has been cyclic. Even folks who had 3-5 years of seniority with a major have been worried if the numbers below them will keep them safe from furlough. Whether or not that becomes fact, the warm fuzzy of alternate income does help. 
 

*If you can stomach the military side when in the Guard/Reserve (different animal, but still military) you may want to consider building active duty points on orders for them/you. Surpassing the 15 yr point of accrued AD points and having already landed your preferred airline (Line Number), most of the airline folks who have ran back to full time gigs (AGR, etc.) during this virus will be vacating such opportunities and you have a good shot at finishing out with an immediate full retirement. 13.5 years is a tough decision to throw away while in good standing. That monthly income in the hand and benefits is hard to beat, but full freedom maybe your best choice and is totally up to you.

Extraordinarily tough. If I stay longer I will promote and burn quite a few guard/reserve possibilities. If I get out guard/reserve is easier but I have little civilian oppurtunity to float me until the majors. Regionals will be tough with kids simply because the pay cut. I don't have the financial stability to float that for more than 6 months to a year.

I think I'm definitely set on getting out because the reality is AD lifestyle is slowly eroding my family to a place that I don't like where it's going. But I'm starting to think Airlines aren't the best option. I just wish I had some sort of credentials that actually meant something anywhere else. Unfortunately, Amazon and Google aren't really impressed by my ACSC in correspondence certificate.

Thanks to those that have responded. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by FLEA

[nunya]

6 hours ago, FLEA said:

I just wish I had some sort of credentials that actually meant something anywhere else.

Get LinkedIn premium for a year (free for veterans, probably current mil, too) and do LinkedIn Learning.  Earn your PMP, Green Belt, A+ and several other credentials for the cost of the test. Look at jobs and see what skills they want and find a certification that proves you have those skills.  You’re probably more capable than most civilian applicants but good luck proving it with your resume.  
 
AF has an e-learning app on the portal with many of the same topics but LI Premium has better delivery. 

[Guardian]

Extraordinarily tough. If I stay longer I will promote and burn quite a few guard/reserve possibilities. If I get out guard/reserve is easier but I have little civilian oppurtunity to float me until the majors. Regionals will be tough with kids simply because the pay cut. I don't have the financial stability to float that for more than 6 months to a year.
I think I'm definitely set on getting out because the reality is AD lifestyle is slowly eroding my family to a place that I don't like where it's going. But I'm starting to think Airlines aren't the best option. I just wish I had some sort of credentials that actually meant something anywhere else. Unfortunately, Amazon and Google aren't really impressed by my ACSC in correspondence certificate.
Thanks to those that have responded. 

GI Bill? Go back to college?

[Danger41]

If you are looking for a career change that needs further education, consider the Pat Tillman foundation. Great opportunity and awesome networking. Very competitive but you sound like you have a very good resume.

https://pattillmanfoundation.org

[jazzdude]

As stupid as pme can be, it's still formal leadership training, and is something that many people on the outside don't get the opportunity to do (leadership/team building training)

There's a lot of soft skills, training, education, and experiences we gain both as pilots and as officers that are marketable, but you've got to sell it.

[hindsight2020]

Sounds like a euphemism for "soft skills" sophistry. Not that's anything wrong with "fake it til you make it" middle manager cannon fodder; somebody gotta keep the cheap blazer stores afloat. 😄

As to PME, agree to disagree. I'd never put that shit on my CV. Not to say there's not a lot of waste and grift in Big Ed at the collegiate level. After all, part of the origin story of my username is in fact my running away from academia. But in general, the level of academic rigor is absolutely embarrassing for PME; again I say that with the bias of having completed graduate STEM education before I ever set foot in the military. Going through ACSC right now, this shit is irredeemable. Reminds me of the RAND and McKinsey and Co frauds I had to deal with during grad school on the non-STEM side. All hat no cattle cohort of pseudo-intellectualism.

[Sua Sponte]

6 hours ago, nunya said:

Get LinkedIn premium for a year (free for veterans, probably current mil, too) and do LinkedIn Learning.  Earn your PMP, Green Belt, A+ and several other credentials for the cost of the test. Look at jobs and see what skills they want and find a certification that proves you have those skills.  You’re probably more capable than most civilian applicants but good luck proving it with your resume.  
 
AF has an e-learning app on the portal with many of the same topics but LI Premium has better delivery. 

Make sure your clearance is good. You’ll get offered positions in that you’re not experienced in solely based on you having a current clearance. Especially true with a TS/SCI. 

I also recently found out you can rehack your year of LinkedIn Premium after it expires.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Sua Sponte

[Sua Sponte]

There’s also other ways to get the VA to pay for school, for longer than the G.I. Bill. I’m in the VA’s Voc Rehab (Chapter 31) and they back paid me for money I personally spent on school, paid for my undergrad, and currently paying for my graduate program at Georgetown. They also pay me E-5 BAH.
 

You can get approved for the program even after your G.I. Bill is exhausted, transferred, etc. the VA considers it an “employment” program, not an “education” program such as the G.I. Bill. Some people have used it to go to law school, medical school, pilot training, etc.

[jazzdude]

Sounds like a euphemism for "soft skills" sophistry. Not that's anything wrong with "fake it til you make it" middle manager cannon fodder; somebody gotta keep the cheap blazer stores afloat.
As to PME, agree to disagree. I'd never put that shit on my CV. Not to say there's not a lot of waste and grift in Big Ed at the collegiate level. After all, part of the origin story of my username is in fact my running away from academia. But in general, the level of academic rigor is absolutely embarrassing for PME; again I say that with the bias of having completed graduate STEM education before I ever set foot in the military. Going through ACSC right now, this shit is irredeemable. Reminds me of the RAND and McKinsey and Co frauds I had to deal with during grad school on the non-STEM side. All hat no cattle cohort of pseudo-intellectualism.

There's lots of stupid skills we take for granted like knowing how to give a good briefing. I've been to several acquisitions courses, and briefing/giving a presentation has always been a DLO. Lots of smart engineers (civilians) in those classes, but man, nobody taught them how to get in front of a group and talk. That's not too say I haven't met engineers that can't brief, but its something a lot of people struggle with.

And you can get college credit for SOS and ACSC... So it counts just as much as the sweet TUI or U of Phoenix masters degree so many AF pilots got. Plus I wonder how many people getting the aero matters from Riddle used SOS to get credits toward their degree? I get the academic rigor feels (is) a lot lower than my engineering undergrad and engineering masters and grad certificate, but it still counts for something. Probably more useful for those middle management jobs you mentioned. Won't make my resume, but if it's an online application with all the space I want (like usajobs or airline apps), it'll be on there.

Lots we take for granted because it's expected from us early on. Especially in the middle manager realm.

It's just about selling what you bring to the table for a potential employer.

[FLEA]

Thanks everyone. Lots of good advice on here. I'm sure something will work out. 

[JS]

Few years ago at a staff job....an Army guy was telling me that an AF officer was complaining that he was not formally trained in "planning."  The Army guys' take was that every graduate of any commissioned officer program is certified in planning and leadership.  Something to think about. 

[DSG]

6 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

Sounds like a euphemism for "soft skills" sophistry. Not that's anything wrong with "fake it til you make it" middle manager cannon fodder; somebody gotta keep the cheap blazer stores afloat. 😄

As to PME, agree to disagree. I'd never put that shit on my CV. Not to say there's not a lot of waste and grift in Big Ed at the collegiate level. After all, part of the origin story of my username is in fact my running away from academia. But in general, the level of academic rigor is absolutely embarrassing for PME; again I say that with the bias of having completed graduate STEM education before I ever set foot in the military. Going through ACSC right now, this shit is irredeemable. Reminds me of the RAND and McKinsey and Co frauds I had to deal with during grad school on the non-STEM side. All hat no cattle cohort of pseudo-intellectualism.

The social sciences (let alone consultancies) are very compromised as a practical fact, but I don't hold that they're inherently "pseudo-intellectual."  The humanities are even more out of their tree these days, yet it's a soulless outlook indeed that thinks philosophy, history, and literature have no value.  There's a middle path between valuing only those subjects that produce measurable economic output and imaging your basket weaving degree marks you as cognitively superior.  But as usual, I seem to be in the minority.

[hindsight2020]

13 minutes ago, Downstream Guppie said:

The social sciences (let alone consultancies) are very compromised as a practical fact, but I don't hold that they're inherently "pseudo-intellectual."  The humanities are even more out of their tree these days, yet it's a soulless outlook indeed that thinks philosophy, history, and literature have no value.  There's a middle path between valuing only those subjects that produce measurable economic output and imaging your basket weaving degree marks you as cognitively superior.  But as usual, I seem to be in the minority.

Except I didn't make that false dichotomy, you did. The point of my post wasn't about STEM vs social and humanities. My point was that "soft-skill" peddlers of all shades, are chock full of pseudo-intellectuals wrt middle management labor market. The Country is riddled with bullshit jobs. LinkedIn is but one exemplification of that dynamic.

 

[DSG]

I don't disagree at all -- I was just digressing.  I was speaking in more general terms of the pro-STEM/anti-"liberal arts" current in certain quarters, not arguing with you particularly. 

I'm familiar with the "bullshit jobs" hypothesis.  I think if anything he understates their prevalence.  Most probably wouldn't consider software developers to fall under this category, for example.  But if they spend their days tweaking frivolous mobile apps in an effort to trick users into giving up their data and clicking on ads, I'd say they more than qualify, much-vaunted STEM background notwithstanding.

[pbar]

1 hour ago, hindsight2020 said:

Except I didn't make that false dichotomy, you did. The point of my post wasn't about STEM vs social and humanities. My point was that "soft-skill" peddlers of all shades, are chock full of pseudo-intellectuals wrt middle management labor market. The Country is riddled with bullshit jobs. LinkedIn is but one exemplification of that dynamic.

Interesting video but the irony of a college professor talking about BS jobs....

[WheelsOff]

Thread successfully derailed. Move your comments about PME/shit nobody cares about elsewhere. Let’s focus on the topic that really matters here!

[AirGuardianC141747]

16 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

Thread successfully derailed. Move your comments about PME/shit nobody cares about elsewhere. Let’s focus on the topic that really matters here!

Nice! This thread went full tilt. To finalize and further perpetuate the lifestyle. When things get better/great again (anyone’s guess), there is no PME, no OPRs, no multiple sideline requirements, responsibilities unrelated extra duty unless you actually volunteer for them like FAA certified Designated Examiner, Line Check Airman, Sim Check Airman, Sim Instructor/Operator, Ground School Instructor which lets be honest  - these sound like opportunities that actually pertain to your chosen profession with increased monetary benefit for most. Even when given the opportunity for Captain, it’s your choice to proceed for more clams - it’s just waiting your turn based on seniority. Even Quarterly CBTs requirements gets you paid for most groups. Wow, paid extra to do your CBTs what a crazy idea. When your off duty, your off duty and I never think about my work just home work, errands, home life, extracurricular activities, family time, whatever it is your into. If/when they call you it’s not for deployment - it’s to get them out of a jam and they compensate you with a big chunk of clams more for your time, but that’s only if you choose to accept it or answer your phone which I don’t. More senior the better of course, but you all understand it based on previous information given. It’s a pretty good deal and nothing’s perfect. Prior to COVID19 most airlines increase your pay by 60K, 70K, 80K and several over a 100K when you jump from FO to Capt. While you see the outright pay scales - many times it’s the soft pay behind the scenes that can benefit you even more dependent upon the carrier. Lifestyle vs pay is a constant choice/crossroad/conundrum you will meet and many stay FO for better schedules, time off, control of their life and there are varied opportunities as a senior FO picking up open time (overtime) at many carriers to close the Captain pay gap. Here’s a personal example: Many Captains rib me about electing to stay FO for several years now and giving up 65K or more. Unless he’s one of the Senior Original Gangstas I simply reply - Whenever have you been #1 at your base Good Sir??? They all understand at that point. Top 10% at any base is usually pretty good and others have it even better depending on the base schedules. It’s all how you want to live your life. If I needed more clams I could spring for it but enjoy my time off personally and haven’t missed a Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Years or any other holiday, birthday or anniversary I have chosen for many years. While in the military I can’t remember how many times all the holidays or special days took place on another date due to being on another continent. Yes I am quite senior at my outfit, but an FO I flew in today with who has been with us for 4 years now said the same. It varies everywhere/situation dependent. To be honest I speak from a different perspective having a mil retirement, etc. which helps me exceed our particular Capt pay, but once again it’s pressure free and I am very fortunate no doubt. If you can attain a full retirement or other consistent means of financial backup I urge you to do it. Definitely not a life for everyone and it’s still challenging at times being away, but my wife sees that I am nearly stress free and enjoy showing up to work and never talk about work when at home. Heck, I get more sleep at work lately (home upgrades, immense amount of landscaping/chopping trees down = not smart I know) and she’s stuck with it all like most of you know all too well. If/when I pull the plug, or my outfit were to collapse, be bought out, etc., at least the retirement provides a softer landing...

Here near Sydney Australia today by the beach for 55hrs. By product of COVID19 = Ocean view suites available for us til 31 Aug. It’s pretty much cake normally, but it’s the icing at times that makes things easier. Traveling around now vs after projected retirement when my body isn’t quite up to par is priceless. It’s not as challenging/rewarding as flying during my military career, but I was so bored last night and wanted to brush up on what little skills I had that I hand flew the departure out of Hawaii all the way up to cruise altitude (100 Kilos shy of Max weight) squirrelly sucker at our weight passing FL250, then droned on for the next 9.5 hours to basically Winter in Sydney. 19C or about 66F. I like Winter here and then off to mid 90s in Thailand next. Wonder if they’ll take my temp there too?

Edited June 13, 2020 by AirGuardianC141747

[Gazmo]

It's all gonna come back folks. Doom and gloom gets the best of us, but air travel is coming back and I think it will come back strong. This was definitely a pretty big and unexpected speedbump that will probably cause Big Blue to get cocky again, but the hiring wave will return. Maybe not this year, but it won't be a 9/11 type event where some of us waited over a decade to get hired by a Legacy. People are done with this $hit. They're ready to get out and go to Disney World. Airfare is cheaper than ever. As long as we can fend off a second wave of COVID in the Fall, we'll push into the winter with a vaccine on the horizon.

[AirGuardianC141747]

Totally agree it will rebound. It will take time and every state, country or territory is doing their own crisis management in their own way. Once everything settles down and stabilizes universally.  Maybe we can smack this thing down quicker as there have been spikes already in multiple states as of late and these waves die down eventually. 2020 hindsight will hopefully provide much needed insight to mitigation procedures/lessons learned that work well. We can’t afford another impact like this. Passed thru Hawaii yesterday which was back to “stay inside” not quite lockdown again due to another minor spike after they recently held a parade. They were at zero for a bit and everything was opening back up until an average of 9 new cases everyday reared its head. Most hotels were shutdown when we arrived and ours was primarily aircrew populated. This pic of the Marriott across the street was eerie like all the hotels surrounding us. Not even balcony chairs were left out. Lifeless for now just waiting for bathing suits to be drying out on the balconies once again.

[go_cubbies22]

I’ve asked a similar question looking for advice and inputs before but obviously things have changed in the last few months.  I’m a Lt Col at 15 years and my ADSC expires in December.  Pre-COVID, I was planning on putting in my paperwork this summer to separate in December for the airlines.  This is also my bonus year and I have until the end of July to either not take it, take 3 years, or take the 5 years.  My STRD is December 2005 so I’m semi worried about a 365 at some point.  Am I crazy to think about signing the bonus or should I just stay a free agent and hope for a rebound in airline hiring? It would definitely be a bummer to end up serving the whole 20 because I never got hired and not have received the extra money but being a free agent and having options also sounds nice.  Appreciate any advice. 

[cragspider]

46 minutes ago, go_cubbies22 said:

I’ve asked a similar question looking for advice and inputs before but obviously things have changed in the last few months.  I’m a Lt Col at 15 years and my ADSC expires in December.  Pre-COVID, I was planning on putting in my paperwork this summer to separate in December for the airlines.  This is also my bonus year and I have until the end of July to either not take it, take 3 years, or take the 5 years.  My STRD is December 2005 so I’m semi worried about a 365 at some point.  Am I crazy to think about signing the bonus or should I just stay a free agent and hope for a rebound in airline hiring? It would definitely be a bummer to end up serving the whole 20 because I never got hired and not have received the extra money but being a free agent and having options also sounds nice.  Appreciate any advice. 

I’m in a similar boat, I’ve got 5 left to retire and 2 on my latest PCS. But talking to my buds in the airlines they are/ have taken a pay cut since they lost their jets, or going to be looking at furlough come oct. Even talking with a good bud right no he agrees sticking it out for the check of the month and medical is worth it for the safety blanket if and when something like this happens again. As for taking the bonus, can’t pass up free ish money.  But you can’t turn down the 365, but if you where a free agent and got it at the 18 year point you’d be in a tough spot.  I’d say stick it out take the money and either pay off things with it or set up a nice nest egg for when you need it.  But that’s just my .02.