The new airline thread

[Agent P]

Spoke with my airline mentor today and described it, he said multiple dudes have done what I am asking to do without issue but to make sure no orders extension, orders end before training is over, leave covers the entire period and have the orders marked as Terminal as I will be ending my tour from FTNGD on these T32 orders.  

My risk mitigation is to have the OG sign the leave request (he's ok with my plan), state in the Remarks section pre-retirement employment training and document coordination & approval in an email if things get weird.  

If shit gets crazy, I'll let go of my double secret probation double dip legally plan and cash the leave out at retirement date, it's just so far all my direct POCs have not shut the door on this.  My orders run out in 3 months with no more requested or expected.

[Smokin]

Not throwing spears, but I've heard many guys say "USERRA requires...." and not be correct.  USERRA is a relatively short document, the rules are really pretty general, and it is a fairly easy read.  If you are military and have another job, just read it yourself instead of relying on internet pilot lawyers.  They won't be out a job if you get fired and they won't be out your two months of BAH, etc if you sell your leave unnecessarily.

Probably 1/3 of most indoc pilots are on terminal leave.  If it is not terminal leave, have a good faith plan for your transition.  Communicate that plan to your commander and the airlines.  They will tell you if they have a problem with it.  Chances are that if it is no kidding a good faith effort to transition without having to drop any mil leave during your indoc or sims, and just use your leave in a suto-terminal manner, you're probably good.  But, just like that reading rainbow guy says, don't take my word for it.  Read it yourself and if you don't think that the leave status will allow outside employment, ask your JAG.  That would be a military requirement; from what I recall from the last time I read it, it doesn't specify anything about types of leave.

 

https://www.justice.gov/crt-military/userra-statute

[Hugo Stiglitz]

On 1/17/2022 at 7:19 PM, Smokin said:

That would be a military requirement; from what I recall from the last time I read it, it doesn't specify anything about types of leave.

You’re not wrong, and of course the other piece of that is the airline policy. My memories are vague on this, but I think either my application or interview invite had some requirement that read along the lines of “military must be fully retired/separated or on terminal leave prior to the class date.” Then at the interview I remember signing something and later was asked to verbally attest to that. So, I have no recommendation about what to do, just a data point to consider how you’d respond.

[TheNewGazmo]

47 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

You’re not wrong, and of course the other piece of that is the airline policy. My memories are vague on this, but I think either my application or interview invite had some requirement that read along the lines of “military must be fully retired/separated or on terminal leave prior to the class date.” Then at the interview I remember signing something and later was asked to verbally attest to that. So, I have no recommendation about what to do, just a data point to consider how you’d respond.

A lot of it is semantics and fortunately, there is a lot of ambiguity to take advantage of when it comes to the military and the airlines.  If your intent is good and you speak with everyone involved on both sides to make sure they're all good with your plan, you will be OK. Looks like you've done that already.

"Terminal Leave" by definition is (AFI 36-3303): "Terminal leave is chargeable leave taken in conjunction with retirement or separation from active duty. Member’s last day of leave coincides with the last day of active duty.". 

If your commander is willing to sign your leave request as being "Terminal", then that is on your commander.  I guess you could say you are "separating active duty".  The ARC has the unique ability to "separate active duty" an infinite number of times.  Maybe you can talk to your FSS and have them cut you a DD-214 for "extra credit".

[Sua Sponte]

AFPC cuts DD-214s for Active Duty.

[Guardian]

You’re not wrong, and of course the other piece of that is the airline policy. My memories are vague on this, but I think either my application or interview invite had some requirement that read along the lines of “military must be fully retired/separated or on terminal leave prior to the class date.” Then at the interview I remember signing something and later was asked to verbally attest to that. So, I have no recommendation about what to do, just a data point to consider how you’d respond.

For what airline?

[Smokin]

Most airlines will ask for something like this.  How forcefully they ask is airline dependent.  It has been a while, so I don't remember the exact verbiage (which is important), but my airline basically asked for either separation orders, terminal leave paperwork, or a letter from the commander.  I did the letter from my commander and they didn't blink.  For me, everything happened so fast that there wasn't time for the normal paperwork process to run its course before my indoc started, so that may have been part of them not saying anything about just getting a memo.

 

Law always trumps airline policy; Delta is learning that the hard way with a current lawsuit that they are almost certainly going to lose and lose big.  But unless you are willing to throw your job on the table and sue the airline like those guys did, the policy might win.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

9 hours ago, Guardian said:

For what airline?

SWA

[Royal]

On 1/16/2022 at 7:19 PM, WheelsOff said:

For those that work at AA:

What’s your honest thoughts/opinions on where the company is headed in the long term?

I ask, because of all my bros currently at the different airlines, it’s only several of the ones who work for AA that seem to express any reasonable doubt/concern/hesitation about their company when you talk with them about it. I’d be living in one of their main domiciles and not commuting, close to family, so that’s the big driver for me.

Definitely not trying to stir the pot or fling any poo…read enough of that from all the booger-flickers over on the APC forums… Thanks for sharing any insight!

This is a difficult question to answer and depends on a few things.

As a job compared to other career fields and compared to active duty, it's better than most things out there that would pay a similar wage. Some might disagree, but working 80 hours a week as a investment banker doesn't sound like a good time.

Compared to other airline options, AA is behind. Particularly with regard to scheduling flexibility and quality of life oriented rules. However, that's partially mitigated if you have an AD retirement or have a guard/reserve unit within driving distance. The people that enjoy this career the most are the ones that treat it as a part time gig.

To answer your original question: No one knows what the future holds. All indicators lead me to believe AA will be around for a long time (the fed gov't seems to think so too). If you can live in base, go for it. If it's too awful, quit.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Ratner]

On 1/16/2022 at 9:19 PM, WheelsOff said:

For those that work at AA:

What’s your honest thoughts/opinions on where the company is headed in the long term?

I ask, because of all my bros currently at the different airlines, it’s only several of the ones who work for AA that seem to express any reasonable doubt/concern/hesitation about their company when you talk with them about it. I’d be living in one of their main domiciles and not commuting, close to family, so that’s the big driver for me.

Definitely not trying to stir the pot or fling any poo…read enough of that from all the booger-flickers over on the APC forums… Thanks for sharing any insight!

If working at AA means living in base, and working at the other airlines means commuting, then go AA. 

That goes for all airlines. If you wanna live in Houston, go United. Dallas, AA/SWA. Atlanta, go Delta. For NYC area I would consider Jet Blue. Lots of potential there and good pay now. Anyways, where you want to live is the first metric. 

 

Now, as for AA, it's a dumpster fire. But the airlines all rotate who sucks the most. AA and the other majors are "too big to fail" so you aren't going to end up on the street. You might get furloughed if the world goes to shit again, but that won't be different at the other airlines. 

 

We might merge, and when we do some of the younger pilots at the smaller airline will hit the jackpot. Happened with American West and US Air. If we collapse entirely (too big for that), then you can end up like the TWA pilots who got screwed on seniority integration. And furloughed. But here they are, all working now, and you can find many, many, many similar stories at DAL, UAL, and SWA. 

 

The industry, like many others, is run by Wall Street shysters looking to use a fancy new accounting trick to bump the EPS a couple cents per quarter. So you really can't guess what will happen. But AA is the trailing airline right now, and I'm still doing pretty well. I'll make my next post covering 2021 earnings and work.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Lord Ratner

[Lord Ratner]

On 8/6/2021 at 12:07 PM, Lord Ratner said:

Find out who the contract masters are. They'll be well-known through whatever online forum your pilots use. Read everything they post. Can them with questions. Learn every hustle out there, including the mechanics of how the contract enables the hustle. You want to know every loophole and strategy in depth, *then* decide what type of pilot career you want.

 

I was lucky, my newhire mentor was a union contract compliance volunteer, so I was given a huge head start, but the information is out there.

 

The three primary ways to exploit this knowledge:

- Maximize pay (Raw earnings)

- Maximize Time Off

- Maximize efficiency (pay earned per actual hours flown)

 

I prefer option three. The more flexible you are, the greater you can maximize the option you choose. This summer has been insane for 737 FOs. As a year-four FO I made 31k in May, 23k in June, and 20k in July. Add 16% for the 401k. In those three months I flew a total of about 70 hours, deadheaded for another 30, and went to annual training. That's somewhere around 5 hours of pay for every hour flown.

 

If I chose option 1, I probably could have done ~30k in June and July. Option two is tough when the airline is undermanned. 

 

Live near a domicile, don't take the early upgrade, and know your contract. Each of those rules will immeasurably improve your Quality of Life.

 

On 2/13/2021 at 3:31 PM, Lord Ratner said:

Counterpoint, there are *lots* of hustles depending on how much you are willing to learn. 

 

I dump my whole schedule before the month starts. Zero hours, zero pay. I then pick up day-of or next day trips as they come up due to sick calls, weather diverts, maintenance, etc. There are all sorts of trips that come up like this, but unlike regularly scheduled trips, these can be *very* inefficient for the company. As an example, I just grabbed a trip leaving tomorrow after dinner. One leg to Tulsa (1:07 hours, includes taxi), overnight, one leg back to DFW (1:25). That's 2:32 hours of on-the-clock time, but 10:30 hours of pay due to our minimum-pay-per-day provisions. 18 hours from the time I get to the airport to the time I'm back in my car driving home. 

 

That's all I fly (mostly). One out, overnight, one back, legs of 2:15 or less. So when I get paid for 90 hours of work per month, I only worked 30-50 of those hours. 

 

Now, you gotta live at the mega base to pull that extreme off, but my point is, you have options. And the biggest point, repeated over and over and over here, is that living in base *vastly* improves those options. 

 

On my third year at AA, during a pandemic, I made (not perfect math):

$179k pay + $23k 401k = $202k

That's for 300 hours of actual flying on a *non-reserve* schedule, meaning I only fly the days I want and the trips I want. Away from home ~8-9 nights a month, no holidays, no Friday/Saturday night trips (unless the wife wants to come along).

 

The more you put into it, the more you get.

I quoted my last summary for comparison purposes. I was hired in March 2018.

 

Here's how 2021 went. I'm a line holder. The alternative would be reserve, which at AA means 18 days per month (in blocks of 3-7) where you are either on a 2-hourish callout (76 hours pay/month) or 12-hour callout (73 hours/month). I get a schedule every month from the bidding software. I then use the trading tools to drop my entire schedule, with some rare trips being "sold" to others (I pay them to take my trip). I then wait for what we call makeup flying, trips leaving today or tomorrow that he company needs to fill dues to sickness, weather events, fatigue calls, delays, etc. 

 

I fly these trips because they usually have a high pay-to-flight-hours ratio, due to contract intricacies that aren't germane to the conversation. My entire goal is to maximize my efficiency. As an example, at AA these trips pay the same

• DFW-OKC-DFW vs DFW-ORD-DFW - Both pay 5:15 hours
• DFW-OKC, overnight, OKC-DFW vs DFW-OKC-DFW-JFK, overnight, JFK-DFW - Both pay 10:30 hours

Anyways, in 2021 I flew 295 hours in the cockpit. I spent another 150 or so riding in the cabin as a passenger (fully paid at the major airlines). Lets call it 450 hours of actual uniformed work.

 

I was paid 1310 hours (this includes vacation and training pay, which are done as work-hours) plus per diem, which worked out to $241k Gross earnings, plus $30.4k of company contributions to my 401k. 

So $270k in my fourth year. Recently the junior captain bid went to someone below me on the seniority list, but I will stay where I am and accrue seniority-in-seat which will allow me to further enhance my pay-to-hours-flown ration by picking up even shorter trips that pay the same as longer trip, as in the examples above. 

Please note though, I am an extreme case. You have to really work the contract and scheduling tools to do what I do, but anyone can if they can tolerate the uncertainty. I spend more days home than most, so when I say uncertainty I mean you don't know what you're doing until the day before at the earliest. 

As a side note, $270k seems like a ridiculous amount of money to me, but I fly with people who make quite a bit more than me, yet still live paycheck to paycheck. Please get yourself financially savvy before you start making eye-watering money. My neighbor, a wide-body captain married to a specialty doctor (total of ~$750k/year), spent years wasting everything. They tell me that Dave Ramsey saved them, and I'm a fan of his work, though I've never needed it. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Lord Ratner

[JoeSchmo]

Long time member, using a throw away account…

The FAA conducted an investigation on me and my crew for a formal pilot deviation (landing without clearance). I was in the wrong, and I fessed up, and called the FAA number when asked. I did not receive a Q-3. 

Will I have to bring up this matter during the airline hiring process? I was told the FAA does not have the name of my crew since the deviation was handled internally through my chain of command. 
 

I 100% intend to tell the truth if asked during the hiring process, but I would feel much better knowing if having a violation/investigation for a PD (pilot deviation) is not a deal breaker for being hired. 
 

I apologize for the sob story, but figured this forum would have some insight. 

[Lord Ratner]

On 1/21/2022 at 8:00 PM, JoeSchmo said:

Long time member, using a throw away account…

The FAA conducted an investigation on me and my crew for a formal pilot deviation (landing without clearance). I was in the wrong, and I fessed up, and called the FAA number when asked. I did not receive a Q-3. 

Will I have to bring up this matter during the airline hiring process? I was told the FAA does not have the name of my crew since the deviation was handled internally through my chain of command. 
 

I 100% intend to tell the truth if asked during the hiring process, but I would feel much better knowing if having a violation/investigation for a PD (pilot deviation) is not a deal breaker for being hired. 
 

I apologize for the sob story, but figured this forum would have some insight. 

It'll be a great thing to talk about in an interview. What did you learn, how did it make you a better pilot, etc.

[WheelsOff]

On 1/21/2022 at 9:00 PM, JoeSchmo said:

Long time member, using a throw away account…

The FAA conducted an investigation on me and my crew for a formal pilot deviation (landing without clearance). I was in the wrong, and I fessed up, and called the FAA number when asked. I did not receive a Q-3. 

Will I have to bring up this matter during the airline hiring process? I was told the FAA does not have the name of my crew since the deviation was handled internally through my chain of command. 
 

I 100% intend to tell the truth if asked during the hiring process, but I would feel much better knowing if having a violation/investigation for a PD (pilot deviation) is not a deal breaker for being hired. 
 

I apologize for the sob story, but figured this forum would have some insight. 

Honest question, why didn’t you pass the number to your DO instead and let them handle it? Water under the bridge now, but for any of the young pups reading, you know you can do that right? That’s the nice part about being a mil pilot when something like that happens…

 

[Guardian]

FAA doesn’t give you wings. Hence they can’t take them away. FAA has no right to know who you are when operating military aircraft. Never identify yourself to the FAA.

[Hacker]

On 1/21/2022 at 6:00 PM, JoeSchmo said:

I 100% intend to tell the truth if asked during the hiring process, but I would feel much better knowing if having a violation/investigation for a PD (pilot deviation) is not a deal breaker for being hired.

No, not a deal breaker in any way. More people than you think have black marks in their record and are getting hired at the airlines.

Be completely forthright and factual about it on your applications and in your interview.

In the interview, all they want to hear is, "my bad", and what you learned from it. Don't offer excuses or explanations.

[mp5g]

3 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

Honest question, why didn’t you pass the number to your DO instead and let them handle it? Water under the bridge now, but for any of the young pups reading, you know you can do that right? That’s the nice part about being a mil pilot when something like that happens…

 

Agreed. Most recent 11-202v3 guidance is a good thing to keep in mind:

1.8. Violations. A violation (pilot deviation) may result when a USAF aircraft deviates from a flight rule. FAA air traffic control (ATC) deviation reports involving USAF aircraft are processed by the Air Force Representative to the FAA (AFREP) in accordance with Department of the Air Force Manual (DAFMAN) 13-201, Airspace Management. USAF ATC deviation reports involving USAF aircraft are processed in accordance with AFI 91-202, The U.S. Air Force Mishap Prevention Program. Violations that occur in the airspace of foreign nations are processed in accordance with the procedures of that nation.
     1.8.1. If a unit or pilot is notified by an air traffic controller or AFREP of a possible pilot deviation, the unit or pilot shall preserve any available evidence for a minimum of 180 days and contact the AFREP prior to disposal. (T-1)
     1.8.2. For any communications involving any alleged violation, utilize aircraft call-sign only and do not release any aircrew member information to non-USAF agencies without the permission of the AFREP in coordination with the MAJCOM/A3 or AF/A3O. (T-1)

[JoeSchmo]

8 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

Honest question, why didn’t you pass the number to your DO instead and let them handle it? Water under the bridge now, but for any of the young pups reading, you know you can do that right? That’s the nice part about being a mil pilot when something like that happens…

 

To be honest, I didn’t know any better. I knew at a mimimim to never disclose any names. 

[SocialD]

On 1/21/2022 at 11:25 AM, Lord Ratner said:

Here's how 2021 went. I'm a line holder. The alternative would be reserve, which at AA means 18 days per month (in blocks of 3-7) where you are either on a 2-hourish callout (76 hours pay/month) or 12-hour callout (73 hours/month). I get a schedule every month from the bidding software. I then use the trading tools to drop my entire schedule, with some rare trips being "sold" to others (I pay them to take my trip). I then wait for what we call makeup flying, trips leaving today or tomorrow that he company needs to fill dues to sickness, weather events, fatigue calls, delays, etc. 

 

I fly these trips because they usually have a high pay-to-flight-hours ratio, due to contract intricacies that aren't germane to the conversation. My entire goal is to maximize my efficiency. As an example, at AA these trips pay the same

• DFW-OKC-DFW vs DFW-ORD-DFW - Both pay 5:15 hours
• DFW-OKC, overnight, OKC-DFW vs DFW-OKC-DFW-JFK, overnight, JFK-DFW - Both pay 10:30 hours

Anyways, in 2021 I flew 295 hours in the cockpit. I spent another 150 or so riding in the cabin as a passenger (fully paid at the major airlines). Lets call it 450 hours of actual uniformed work.

...

Please note though, I am an extreme case. You have to really work the contract and scheduling tools to do what I do, but anyone can if they can tolerate the uncertainty. I spend more days home than most, so when I say uncertainty I mean you don't know what you're doing until the day before at the earliest. 

 

 

Awesome post man and I'm super jealous of that hustle.  Unfortunately that generally works the best in fortress hubs like DFW.  As an example, at DAL, we have guys that do that every month down in ATL.  This is why we have triple digit seniority guys as 717 Captains in ATL, and why the top 717 FOs down there could easily hold 757 Captain in ATL (or WB Capt elsewhere).  I'm in the top 10% of my category and I generally can't accomplish this most months in my base.  If my family weren't all so close, I'd seriously consider moving to ATL to be able to do this...and because I hate snow/winter (as I watch to snow pour down outside) lol.  Those dudes live a dang good life, spend LOTS of time at home and very few nights in a hotel.

 

 

On 1/21/2022 at 11:25 AM, Lord Ratner said:

As a side note, $270k seems like a ridiculous amount of money to me, but I fly with people who make quite a bit more than me, yet still live paycheck to paycheck. Please get yourself financially savvy before you start making eye-watering money. My neighbor, a wide-body captain married to a specialty doctor (total of ~$750k/year), spent years wasting everything. They tell me that Dave Ramsey saved them, and I'm a fan of his work, though I've never needed it. 

 

 

It's mind boggling.  I've flown with guys on the WB who "needed" to get 85+ hours a month to meet their budget.  They were the ones who looked at me sideways when I told them I dropped my entire schedule...they're just too scared of coming up short to attempt it.  To each their own, but that would stress me out big time.  Dudes would do themselves a favor by viewing min guarantee as the baseline for their budget.  I generally treat anything above that as found money, to fund vacations, buy toys and stay debt free.

[Lord Ratner]

7 minutes ago, SocialD said:

 

 

Awesome post man and I'm super jealous of that hustle.  Unfortunately that generally works the best in fortress hubs like DFW.  As an example, at DAL, we have guys that do that every month down in ATL.  This is why we have triple digit seniority guys as 717 Captains in ATL, and why the top 717 FOs down there could easily hold 757 Captain in ATL (or WB Capt elsewhere).  I'm in the top 10% of my category and I generally can't accomplish this most months in my base.  If my family weren't all so close, I'd seriously consider moving to ATL to be able to do this...and because I hate snow/winter (as I watch to snow pour down outside) lol.  Those dudes live a dang good life, spend LOTS of time at home and very few nights in a hotel.

 

 

 

 

It's mind boggling.  I've flown with guys on the WB who "needed" to get 85+ hours a month to meet their budget.  They were the ones who looked at me sideways when I told them I dropped my entire schedule...they're just too scared of coming up short to attempt it.  To each their own, but that would stress me out big time.  Dudes would do themselves a favor by viewing min guarantee as the baseline for their budget.  I generally treat anything above that as found money, to fund vacations, buy toys and stay debt free.

Absolutely. This has been my message to military dudes and dudettes, and most particularly my message to their spouses. You may think you know why you want to live somewhere, but you might not be considering the totality of what that decision will entail.

 

My wife has absolutely no family in DFW, except for of course me. And living in one of the mega hubs has allowed me to run this hustle, which means not only am I home more, I'm home on more of the days that I want to be home. All the while making much more money for much less work than I would as a commuter, or even at a smaller hub.

 

That's not to say everyone has to do what I do; I remember how many friends getting out were moving to where their wife's family lived. Understandable. After 10 to 20 years of getting jerked around by the military so your husband/wife can do awesome things with awesome people in awesome airplanes while you sat at home, it's completely reasonable to want to make a major decision for once like where to live.

 

But the airlines are a strange and stupid career, and they are most heavily influenced by where you live. So everybody choosing not to live at a primary hub for whatever airline they work for needs to very strongly consider the implications.

 

I think we take for granted that the airlines allow you to live anywhere. Telecommuting for other jobs has similarly detrimental effects on your career outlook and earnings. 

 

If you look at all of the factors and determine that earning less and working more is a price you're willing to pay to live somewhere else, then by all means, I'm happy for you. But for my wife and I, as we get ready to have kids, we decided it would be better for me to be home more often than for our kids to have more time with the rest of the family.

 

As for the money stuff, I think the rest of the world is waking up quite suddenly to the financial reality of the last 2 years of pandemic fuckery... It's going to be fascinating and terrifying to watch the Fed juggle inflation and the associated social unrest it causes, with their true and unstated primary purpose, propping up the stock market.

 

The market is eating shit on the potential of going from unfathomably low interest rates (0-.25%) to mildly less unfathomably low interest rates (1-1.25%). Last time we had an inflation panic, it followed the government expanding the monetary supply by around 13%. It took interest rates of 20% and two recessions to beat that inflation back down. This time the government expanded the monetary supply by around 25%... Buckle up.

 

How does that relate to the airlines? Pilots always lose in recessions. Spend accordingly.

[BADFNZ]

Supposedly the record for TFP (hours, kinda) in a month was smashed last month at SWA.  Dude somehow earned 500 TFP bidding on everything he was legal for in Open Time, and since all OT trips were double pay last month, he earned roughly $123,000.  He could basically take the next 11 months off and earn as much as a 12-year Major does in a year.  Good luck to those sticking around!

[Newb]

On 1/21/2022 at 11:25 AM, Lord Ratner said:

 

I quoted my last summary for comparison purposes. I was hired in March 2018.

 

Here's how 2021 went. I'm a line holder. The alternative would be reserve, which at AA means 18 days per month (in blocks of 3-7) where you are either on a 2-hourish callout (76 hours pay/month) or 12-hour callout (73 hours/month). I get a schedule every month from the bidding software. I then use the trading tools to drop my entire schedule, with some rare trips being "sold" to others (I pay them to take my trip). I then wait for what we call makeup flying, trips leaving today or tomorrow that he company needs to fill dues to sickness, weather events, fatigue calls, delays, etc. 

 

I fly these trips because they usually have a high pay-to-flight-hours ratio, due to contract intricacies that aren't germane to the conversation. My entire goal is to maximize my efficiency. As an example, at AA these trips pay the same

• DFW-OKC-DFW vs DFW-ORD-DFW - Both pay 5:15 hours
• DFW-OKC, overnight, OKC-DFW vs DFW-OKC-DFW-JFK, overnight, JFK-DFW - Both pay 10:30 hours

Anyways, in 2021 I flew 295 hours in the cockpit. I spent another 150 or so riding in the cabin as a passenger (fully paid at the major airlines). Lets call it 450 hours of actual uniformed work.

 

I was paid 1310 hours (this includes vacation and training pay, which are done as work-hours) plus per diem, which worked out to $241k Gross earnings, plus $30.4k of company contributions to my 401k. 

So $270k in my fourth year. Recently the junior captain bid went to someone below me on the seniority list, but I will stay where I am and accrue seniority-in-seat which will allow me to further enhance my pay-to-hours-flown ration by picking up even shorter trips that pay the same as longer trip, as in the examples above. 

Please note though, I am an extreme case. You have to really work the contract and scheduling tools to do what I do, but anyone can if they can tolerate the uncertainty. I spend more days home than most, so when I say uncertainty I mean you don't know what you're doing until the day before at the earliest. 

As a side note, $270k seems like a ridiculous amount of money to me, but I fly with people who make quite a bit more than me, yet still live paycheck to paycheck. Please get yourself financially savvy before you start making eye-watering money. My neighbor, a wide-body captain married to a specialty doctor (total of ~$750k/year), spent years wasting everything. They tell me that Dave Ramsey saved them, and I'm a fan of his work, though I've never needed it. 

Can you share how many nights you spent away from home in 2021?

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, Newb said:

Can you share how many nights you spent away from home in 2021?

Sure. In the list, each item number is for the corresponding month in 2021.

Some context:

Example:    1. 90 Hours / 8 nights / +2 Covid

First number is my hours of pay. The low end for a reserve pilot is 73. Normal for a line holder just flying their schedule is 78-90. For a normal line holder you would expect 16 days of work with 8-13 nights away from home to reach 90 hours, but it depends on trip composition. If you fly 15 turns (single day out-and-back) you can make 90+ hours with no nights away. That's usually for the senior pilots, or those who do what I do.

Second number is actual nights I was away from home

Third number is the modifier based on extenuating circumstances. For June and July we were given 48 hours post vaccination quarantine. Any trips that touched that 48 hours were dropped with pay. I positioned a 4-day trip to touch the beginning of the window and another 4-day to touch the end, per shot. So the third number represents a realistic number of nights away from home if I had flown to get those hours

 

1. 95 Hours     / 1 Night    /  +7 furlough return
2. 78 Hours     / 7 Nights  /
3. 87 Hours     / 5 Nights  / +3 10-day quarantine 
4. 96 Hours    /  9 Nights  / 
5. 178 Hours   /  9 Nights  /
6. 133 Hours   / 5  Nights / +3 vaccine drops
7. 112 Hours   /  1 Nights  / +4 vaccine drops
8. 103 Hours  /  4 Nights  /
9. 91 Hours    /  5 Nights  / +1 vacation
10. 89 Hours   /  4 Nights  / +2 vacation
11. 136 Hours /  7 Nights  /
12. 101 Hours  / 9 Nights  /

 

 

 

[viper154]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

Sure. In the list, each item number is for the corresponding month in 2021.

Some context:

Example:    1. 90 Hours / 8 nights / +2 Covid

First number is my hours of pay. The low end for a reserve pilot is 73. Normal for a line holder just flying their schedule is 78-90. For a normal line holder you would expect 16 days of work with 8-13 nights away from home to reach 90 hours, but it depends on trip composition. If you fly 15 turns (single day out-and-back) you can make 90+ hours with no nights away. That's usually for the senior pilots, or those who do what I do.

Second number is actual nights I was away from home

Third number is the modifier based on extenuating circumstances. For June and July we were given 48 hours post vaccination quarantine. Any trips that touched that 48 hours were dropped with pay. I positioned a 4-day trip to touch the beginning of the window and another 4-day to touch the end, per shot. So the third number represents a realistic number of nights away from home if I had flown to get those hours

 

1. 95 Hours     / 1 Night    /  +7 furlough return
2. 78 Hours     / 7 Nights  /
3. 87 Hours     / 5 Nights  / +3 10-day quarantine 
4. 96 Hours    /  9 Nights  / 
5. 178 Hours   /  9 Nights  /
6. 133 Hours   / 5  Nights / +3 vaccine drops
7. 112 Hours   /  1 Nights  / +4 vaccine drops
8. 103 Hours  /  4 Nights  /
9. 91 Hours    /  5 Nights  / +1 vacation
10. 89 Hours   /  4 Nights  / +2 vacation
11. 136 Hours /  7 Nights  /
12. 101 Hours  / 9 Nights  /

 

 

 

 

On 1/21/2022 at 10:25 AM, Lord Ratner said:

 

I quoted my last summary for comparison purposes. I was hired in March 2018.

 

Here's how 2021 went. I'm a line holder. The alternative would be reserve, which at AA means 18 days per month (in blocks of 3-7) where you are either on a 2-hourish callout (76 hours pay/month) or 12-hour callout (73 hours/month). I get a schedule every month from the bidding software. I then use the trading tools to drop my entire schedule, with some rare trips being "sold" to others (I pay them to take my trip). I then wait for what we call makeup flying, trips leaving today or tomorrow that he company needs to fill dues to sickness, weather events, fatigue calls, delays, etc. 

 

I fly these trips because they usually have a high pay-to-flight-hours ratio, due to contract intricacies that aren't germane to the conversation. My entire goal is to maximize my efficiency. As an example, at AA these trips pay the same

• DFW-OKC-DFW vs DFW-ORD-DFW - Both pay 5:15 hours
• DFW-OKC, overnight, OKC-DFW vs DFW-OKC-DFW-JFK, overnight, JFK-DFW - Both pay 10:30 hours

Anyways, in 2021 I flew 295 hours in the cockpit. I spent another 150 or so riding in the cabin as a passenger (fully paid at the major airlines). Lets call it 450 hours of actual uniformed work.

 

I was paid 1310 hours (this includes vacation and training pay, which are done as work-hours) plus per diem, which worked out to $241k Gross earnings, plus $30.4k of company contributions to my 401k. 

So $270k in my fourth year. Recently the junior captain bid went to someone below me on the seniority list, but I will stay where I am and accrue seniority-in-seat which will allow me to further enhance my pay-to-hours-flown ration by picking up even shorter trips that pay the same as longer trip, as in the examples above. 

Please note though, I am an extreme case. You have to really work the contract and scheduling tools to do what I do, but anyone can if they can tolerate the uncertainty. I spend more days home than most, so when I say uncertainty I mean you don't know what you're doing until the day before at the earliest. 

As a side note, $270k seems like a ridiculous amount of money to me, but I fly with people who make quite a bit more than me, yet still live paycheck to paycheck. Please get yourself financially savvy before you start making eye-watering money. My neighbor, a wide-body captain married to a specialty doctor (total of ~$750k/year), spent years wasting everything. They tell me that Dave Ramsey saved them, and I'm a fan of his work, though I've never needed it. 

How much time per month are you spending in the scheduling software working the system, does it take some time to make this advantageous or is this a simple 20-30 minutes sipping a cold one or two? 
 

apologies for the ignorance, I am just getting to the point it’s time to start exploring post AF options, and my scheduling back ground involves pucks/white boards and hoping pex won’t crash. 

 

[Lord Ratner]

30 minutes ago, viper154 said:

 

How much time per month are you spending in the scheduling software working the system, does it take some time to make this advantageous or is this a simple 20-30 minutes sipping a cold one or two? 
 

apologies for the ignorance, I am just getting to the point it’s time to start exploring post AF options, and my scheduling back ground involves pucks/white boards and hoping pex won’t crash. 

 

All of our scheduling stuff is done on calendar days

Work for dropping next months schedule:

9th: put in preferences for next month. Takes a hour the first time, then every month about 10 minutes to copy the template and make some small tweaks.

18th: next month schedule is loaded, spend 10 minutes (max) putting trips into the pilot "trading board"

22nd: Load next months trips into trading software. Runs every day at 0800 and 2000 starting in the 23rd of the prior month. Usually will have to reload the trades before each run from the 23rd until all the trips are gone, usually by the 28th. 5-10 minutes each iteration.

24th: "free for all" training system opens for the next month at 1000. Spend about 10 mins at 0900 loading trades into an optional service that automatically executes trading commands. This gets my undivided attention from 1000-1030. Then I'll look at it a few times a day until my trips are gone, usually by the 28th.

 

Work for picking up flying. I do this on the day-of and day-before any day that I am willing/wanting to fly:

 

Before 1000, look at the open trips for tomorrow, add to ballot if desired. Rarely desired. 5 minutes

When I get an alert that a new trip has dropped into "open time," look at my phone to assess the trip. 15 seconds if I don't want it, 1-2 minutes if I do. This happens between 10-100 times a day. I do this because I am very picky about the flights I will accept. If you are willing to be less choosey you can load criteria into the website once a day and just let it ride. 

 

So I look at my phone a lot every day, but I was doing that anyways.

 

Honestly, the hard part isn't the time, though ironically that's what most pilots recoil at. Pilots want predictability and stability. Get the schedule and don't think about it. That's certainly an option.

 

The hard part is risk tolerance. What if there's no trips to fly? What if you can't drop to zero? What if the senior pilots take the trips? What if I don't get paid? 

 

No pain, no gain. The bigger the hub, the better the options. The closer you live to the airport, the better. Flying weekends means better trips if you're junior since the senior pilots want weekday stuff. The more flexible you are the better. 

 

If I was willing to fly more and be away from home more I could have made $350k I think. Instead I was home a lot, flew very few hours and made $270k.

 

But be honest with yourself about your risk tolerance. Statistically speaking you will not do what I do. And if you don't, it's still an amazing job with great pay and lots of time off.