The new airline thread

[Springer]

On 4/3/2022 at 10:05 PM, HuggyU2 said:

The pilots that got the early retirement were the beneficiaries of this. 
I've yet to meet one that regrets doing it. 

I was offered one at 59 during the NWA/DAL BK/merger crisis and never looked back.  It wasn't fun then and I can't imagine flying/layovers these last two years.  Perhaps double/triple the pay I was making back then makes up for it. 

 

[FourFans]

On 4/3/2022 at 9:48 PM, Prozac said:

It’s gonna be an interesting new contract season as just about every airline is coming up on negotiations over the next couple years.

Except at 5Y.  Sounds like contract thoughts at Atlas are interesting...now that they have a 'new' contract that required immediate LOAs...

Now that I've been able to observe the rest of the industry, I'm very glad I was able to depart that outfit quickly.

Edited April 5, 2022 by FourFans130

[Prozac]

43 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

Except at 5Y.  Sounds like contract thoughts at Atlas are interesting...now that they have a 'new' contract that required immediate LOAs...

Now that I've been able to observe the rest of the industry, I'm very glad I was able to depart that outfit quickly.

I did an ~18 month stint there. I enjoyed the hell out of it….the place has a lot of potential if they’d just implement a few easy fixes. Best advice I ever got was from a former Sq mate who convinced me that any future at any ACMI is sketchy at best. North American and Evergreen were great places to work until they weren’t. My advice to anyone at Atlas or Kalitta who can bail: bail. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

6 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

Except at 5Y.  Sounds like contract thoughts at Atlas are interesting...now that they have a 'new' contract that required immediate LOAs...

Now that I've been able to observe the rest of the industry, I'm very glad I was able to depart that outfit quickly.

On Point totally. “New Contract” has a few no- brainer variables that need to be fixed. We are hoping the rest of the industry gets even better contracts to help bring ours up. Hemorrhaging talent helps our situation immensely as seen in December with the additional LOA’s. Personally, for those who enjoy what we do and have their priorities met we’ll keep on pushing for better additions. The others looking for the polo shirts of the Big 3, etc. I wish them the best on their future endeavors. They need to have what fits their lifestyle/priorities as soon as possible as many of the outfits have been flooded with new hires. Sooner the better to get that seniority number under their belt for quicker upgrades and equipment basing, etc. Jump quick, the rollovers to bigger and better deals will only be delayed if you don’t.

[AirGuardianC141747]

5 hours ago, Prozac said:

I did an ~18 month stint there. I enjoyed the hell out of it….the place has a lot of potential if they’d just implement a few easy fixes. Best advice I ever got was from a former Sq mate who convinced me that any future at any ACMI is sketchy at best. North American and Evergreen were great places to work until they weren’t. My advice to anyone at Atlas or Kalitta who can bail: bail. 

I cannot speak to North American but based on several friends here from Evergreen it was a far cry from being great. Some folks from ATA and Gemini are glad to be here as well. Kalitta is going thru turmoil a bit right now, but ACMI’s as a rule tend to have IBS no doubt. Primary frustration here at Atlas is everyone knows it could be the Best outfit to work for hands down, but that unfortunately will never happen across all scales. It meets and in some cases exceeds some folks priorities but most definitely can be better. It has some of the better work rules of other ACMI’s, gateway is better than most but could be better like home basing. Unfortunately some other gigs have 15-16 day vs our 17 day runs. The 76 guys do enjoy their split schedules though. We have them on the 74 but it’s the commuting that keeps me doing 17 day runs and getting weeks at a time off just something I prefer and I never think about this place until I leave for a trip. Much more tenable if you choose to live overseas, many of our pilots do. Flying is diverse, not as many cookie cutter runs, pax runs if you like those (AMC, NFL charters, etc), international heavy on the 74, 777 predominantly. 76 maybe a third do international. 73 is a startup still and we’ll see how far that goes. 
 

Totally agree, if you’re young you have many options and it’s never been easier than before to choose your final destination. Longevity wise it is great advice to look elsewhere as ACMI hasn’t been known as holding an everlasting future like FedEx/UPS, some LCCs and of course the subsidized Big 3. We will fail by government standards long before the others. Had some Gov cheese thrown our way, don’t know why but the company didn’t give it back is my understanding. Long haul our way is not for everyone, compensation is just OK comparably speaking (higher than most right now, but that is short lived for pandemic reasons). You can make a lot of extra clams but it will cost you some days off during normal times. We have scheduled freight lines, customer specific lines(variable), Pax Charters, AMC, Amazon (not a good profit margin as it looks like our initial aggressiveness towards it has throttled back), plenty of other airline support (FedEx/UPS/NCA, etc), Titan leasing, etc, etc, so it’s extremely diverse for success or to our own detriment but has been working for a few decades now. Nothing is guaranteed in our profession no matter where you are. Just set your goals, choose your priorities and make it happen as best you can. No one knows if their career was the right choice until looking back and I pray your “outlook” is good - 8 Ball.

[AirGuardianC141747]

Just my take purely for me and my wife. ACMI - Beauty IN the Beast. Bottom Line Up Front: To be fair, if it weren’t for paid tickets and hotels and I didn’t have a pension, etc. I would have left long ago. Unless living in base, half of your pressure/work is getting to your job. I could bail right now only because of the many friends at FedEx/UPS, but I have lived in the Far East, went to High School in Japan (fluent speaker) and have family there as well as in Europe. No other company gains me access on a regular basis to both regions and  international travel (even during virus max ignorance, it’s getting better) is a huge priority and I enjoy it. Already lived in 13 states, visited 30 others and if I ever travel beyond 65 it will be in an RV or renovated school bus (lived in HI, routinely in AK so it will be easy) to the remaining seven or other noteworthy Americana. We are a great stepping stone to other goals while you wait, but I have more than a decade of seniority what little control it gives me and have figured out what little nuances in the contract pay forward a long way. We are not as regimented/controlled as others and operationally things we do here (not safety related) would most certainly get a pink slip elsewhere. I actually come to work happy and leave it behind thankfully - it gets long no doubt. Don’t have a strong household working relationship with the better half, have young kids, despise long haul hours in a tin can, mediocre airline food, prefer McDonalds/KFC during layovers, love the monkey suit, want FA’s, abhor change (schedule wise/has calmed down quite a bit) and of course demand an industry leading or even on par contract in a few areas, do not come here. 
 

*I do suspect more cheddar will be thrown our way as others start leap-frogging each other’s contracts. It’s just reality. Couldn’t believe LTD was offered however that turns out and a 2% DC was given to us. Many were disgruntled at the mere 2% compared to 15-16% DC or more at other carriers. I don’t think they realize that it’s the foot in the door and now there’s a crack of light no matter how small. We definitely require more. At least the 100% match on your 10% contribution has solidified. Profit sharing doubled in size compared to last year, but that can be adjusted so be aware. At least we are seeing some of the same types of verbiage in other contracts being used in ours. Bail if you need too, stay only if you like it - always a flying adventure compared to any other civilian operation and a grandiose scale of travel. Everyone’s priorities are different so choose wisely!
 

Edited April 6, 2022 by AirGuardianC141747

[Prozac]

On 4/6/2022 at 12:14 AM, AirGuardianC141747 said:

Just my take purely for me and my wife. ACMI - Beauty IN the Beast. Bottom Line Up Front: To be fair, if it weren’t for paid tickets and hotels and I didn’t have a pension, etc. I would have left long ago. Unless living in base, half of your pressure/work is getting to your job. I could bail right now only because of the many friends at FedEx/UPS, but I have lived in the Far East, went to High School in Japan (fluent speaker) and have family there as well as in Europe. No other company gains me access on a regular basis to both regions and  international travel (even during virus max ignorance, it’s getting better) is a huge priority and I enjoy it. Already lived in 13 states, visited 30 others and if I ever travel beyond 65 it will be in an RV or renovated school bus (lived in HI, routinely in AK so it will be easy) to the remaining seven or other noteworthy Americana. We are a great stepping stone to other goals while you wait, but I have more than a decade of seniority what little control it gives me and have figured out what little nuances in the contract pay forward a long way. We are not as regimented/controlled as others and operationally things we do here (not safety related) would most certainly get a pink slip elsewhere. I actually come to work happy and leave it behind thankfully - it gets long no doubt. Don’t have a strong household working relationship with the better half, have young kids, despise long haul hours in a tin can, mediocre airline food, prefer McDonalds/KFC during layovers, love the monkey suit, want FA’s, abhor change (schedule wise/has calmed down quite a bit) and of course demand an industry leading or even on par contract in a few areas, do not come here. 
 

*I do suspect more cheddar will be thrown our way as others start leap-frogging each other’s contracts. It’s just reality. Couldn’t believe LTD was offered however that turns out and a 2% DC was given to us. Many were disgruntled at the mere 2% compared to 15-16% DC or more at other carriers. I don’t think they realize that it’s the foot in the door and now there’s a crack of light no matter how small. We definitely require more. At least the 100% match on your 10% contribution has solidified. Profit sharing doubled in size compared to last year, but that can be adjusted so be aware. At least we are seeing some of the same types of verbiage in other contracts being used in ours. Bail if you need too, stay only if you like it - always a flying adventure compared to any other civilian operation and a grandiose scale of travel. Everyone’s priorities are different so choose wisely!
 

Point taken & agree that one’s chosen airline is highly situationally dependent. Hope I didn’t come across as insinuating anyone who stays at 5Y is making bad life choices. I have several good friends still there & it is the best place for them personally. But for the average joe, under 40, all other variables being equal, I think a move to a major is a no brainer in most cases. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

11 hours ago, Prozac said:

Point taken & agree that one’s chosen airline is highly situationally dependent. Hope I didn’t come across as insinuating anyone who stays at 5Y is making bad life choices. I have several good friends still there & it is the best place for them personally. But for the average joe, under 40, all other variables being equal, I think a move to a major is a no brainer in most cases. 

No worries, it was never taken that way. This lifestyle is basically a niche in the industry. Well compensated (not extremely well), interesting and fun flying job/hobby touring the world on very decent schedule (not the duration, but it is less compressed). You are undoubtedly correct, the majority of the world has great responsibility and $$$ creates freedom and security; therefore, it is prudent/logical to plan/prepare your family’s future with the best investment/opportunity. The driving factor is to chase the most coin for the least amount of effort. Over time Big 3/Purple/Brown have provided these attributes hands down and are the most stable in this cyclic industry. Nothing is solid, but they are the best bets.
 

*Like the premier question from a High School counselor decades upon decades ago: “If you had a million $ (Use $5 Million today), what would your occupation be if you must choose one?”

My Answer - Flying Pirate - I would still be here (specifically) only because it meets my needs/wants, I get bored too easily and this provides enough adventure to stay awake. Honestly, with $5 Mil I would do something else if I couldn’t do this vagabond flying pirate gig. If you can, fulfill your priorities not someone else’s - everyone needs to find their niche! You only have OneLife, make good choices - make them count!

Edited April 8, 2022 by AirGuardianC141747

[StrikeOut312]

Anybody on here fly for Omega Air Refueling? I'd like to compare to the pax & cargo options out there.

[bfargin]

If you sky bus drivers weren't sitting up in the cockpit spanking hank you might get paid starting at boarding too. We all know what you commercial guys and gals do up there before the plane is boarded and doors secured, absolutely nothing!

 

https://news.yahoo.com/delta-begin-paying-flight-attendants-163906902.html

[bfargin]

Oh yeah, before any of you overpaid self-loving douchebags get your panties in a wad, s/

[di1630]

https://www.abc15.com/news/national/the-airline-pilot-shortage-is-real-and-will-cost-all-of-us?fbclid=IwAR1B80h_4PK-867ASer17CLgL2aXJeFT6e1pq0CeWOsnnv4X0SKcB1Ap5s8

[disgruntledemployee]

If every single one of you is getting an offer or more from the big guys like AA, UAL, DAL, SWA, FedEx, or UPS, as soon as you post your app, then I would agree that there is probably a pilot shortage. 

Remember, United's Kirby (quoted in the link) said this at an investor meeting... to investors.  So when he does something, like buy another flight school, create another regional flow, start bus service (motor coach, not FiFi) on short routes, the investors say, eh, makes sense, pilot shortage. 

The real shortage is probably at the regionals.  Between wages, archaic flows, etc., and the higher potential to jump up to the major off the bat, yeah, I can see them struggling to fill seats.

Funny anecdotally, recently met some new hires and some came from just about every other major out there. 

It's a very good time to fill out that app and say no to the bonus.

[AirGuardianC141747]

5 hours ago, bfargin said:

If you sky bus drivers weren't sitting up in the cockpit spanking hank you might get paid starting at boarding too. We all know what you commercial guys and gals do up there before the plane is boarded and doors secured, absolutely nothing!

 

Actually some of us are checking the catering. Ok, scarfing some sandwiches down. Release them brakes folks.

[TheNewGazmo]

6 hours ago, disgruntledemployee said:

If every single one of you is getting an offer or more from the big guys like AA, UAL, DAL, SWA, FedEx, or UPS, as soon as you post your app, then I would agree that there is probably a pilot shortage. 

Remember, United's Kirby (quoted in the link) said this at an investor meeting... to investors.  So when he does something, like buy another flight school, create another regional flow, start bus service (motor coach, not FiFi) on short routes, the investors say, eh, makes sense, pilot shortage. 

The real shortage is probably at the regionals.  Between wages, archaic flows, etc., and the higher potential to jump up to the major off the bat, yeah, I can see them struggling to fill seats.

Funny anecdotally, recently met some new hires and some came from just about every other major out there. 

It's a very good time to fill out that app and say no to the bonus.

There may not be a "shortage" of applicants, but I did hear through the grape vine from someone who knows someone in pilot recruiting of one of the "big guys" that they are seeing less and less "qualified" applicants.

[brabus]

DAL just hired a 23 yr old. He seemed like a good dude who has his shit together way more than I did at 23. So this isn’t to say he’s not “qualified,” but rather to say if they’re hiring 23 yr olds with just over a year at a regional, then many of you are well in the running for jobs at majors. 

[Hugo Stiglitz]

6 hours ago, TheNewGazmo said:

There may not be a "shortage" of applicants, but I did hear through the grape vine from someone who knows someone in pilot recruiting of one of the "big guys" that they are seeing less and less "qualified" applicants.

A classmate of mine is on the SWA hiring team. Lots of things SWA can be doing better, but hiring criteria has generally been on point. Haven’t flown with a douche during my (almost) 5 years here. The hiring guys attribute that to 2 main factors: an overarching philosophy of “who would you want to fly a four day trip with?” and ultimate pilot control of who gets hired in the form of a decision board of chief pilots and line pilot inputs.

Anyways, according to my buddy the number of qualified applicants dropped over 20% between hiring windows earlier this year. The team had to adjust their philosophy to “who COULD you fly a four day trip with?” Also the extra time it takes to hold a decision board means even more candidates are bailing after getting their on-the-spot CJOs from OALs. Add to that the perpetual uphill battle of only offering unsexy flying in an unsexy airplane and suffice to say my buddy’s extremely pessimistic about the candidate pool by the end of the year. Side note: for any of you non-douches reading, do I have a job opportunity for you!

[TheNewGazmo]

Side note: for any of you non-douches reading, do I have a job opportunity for you!

I am sure all self-proclaimed non-douches are eagerly waiting.

[FUSEPLUG]

59 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Anyways, according to my buddy the number of qualified applicants dropped over 20% between hiring windows earlier this year. The team had to adjust their philosophy to “who COULD you fly a four day trip with?” Also the extra time it takes to hold a decision board means even more candidates are bailing after getting their on-the-spot CJOs from OALs. Add to that the perpetual uphill battle of only offering unsexy flying in an unsexy airplane and suffice to say my buddy’s extremely pessimistic about the candidate pool by the end of the year. Side note: for any of you non-douches reading, do I have a job opportunity for you!

And rumor on the line is that we could only fill 1/3 of a class of 30 that started on last Tuesday.  Ouch!

[mcbush]

16 hours ago, disgruntledemployee said:

If every single one of you is getting an offer or more from the big guys like AA, UAL, DAL, SWA, FedEx, or UPS, as soon as you post your app, then I would agree that there is probably a pilot shortage. 

Can't speak for everyone, but here's one data point for you. Recently started terminal after ten years of flying the line on the C-17. Good resume but absolutely nothing special/unique/better than your average guy. Applied to AA, UAL, DAL, and SWA and was offered interviews at each almost instantly. Never heard from FDX/UPS because I already had a job at my #1 pick before I could finish their apps. Started class a couple weeks ago, life is good.

 

16 hours ago, disgruntledemployee said:

It's a very good time to fill out that app and say no to the bonus.

Couldn't agree more!

Edited April 27, 2022 by mcbush

[Sua Sponte]

On 4/18/2022 at 11:18 AM, StrikeOut312 said:

Anybody on here fly for Omega Air Refueling? I'd like to compare to the pax & cargo options out there.

Friend of mine is their Chief Boom.

[SocialD]

On 4/27/2022 at 1:10 AM, disgruntledemployee said:

If every single one of you is getting an offer or more from the big guys like AA, UAL, DAL, SWA, FedEx, or UPS, as soon as you post your app, then I would agree that there is probably a pilot shortage. 

 

When 20% of my squadron gets hired within the last 6 months, I'd say the shortage is here.  Almost all of them received invites within days of hitting submit.  The only ones that didn't get multiple invites/CJOs were the ones that only applied to DAL.  One has been at AAL for two years and got interview invites at DAL/FDX/UPS, and is now at DAL after turning down the FDX/UPS invites...that shit is bonkers.  My a squadron is now 65% airline guys and I think we have 4 more who are looking to hit submit in the next few months.  I suspect they'll get invites quickly after submitting.  That would put us at 76% airline...less than a decade ago, we were maybe at 25%.  We're living in crazy times.  

[HuggyU2]

Still... I'm seeing some really experienced and quality military pilots not getting called.  

Yet seeing new hire classes with a lot of pilots under the age of 26.  

[SurelySerious]

Still... I'm seeing some really experienced and quality military pilots not getting called.  
Yet seeing new hire classes with a lot of pilots under the age of 26.  

Have they done a pro app review? As you’re aware, can catch errors one wouldn’t realize they had that could keep even the otherwise best applicant from getting a call.

[SocialD]

45 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

Still... I'm seeing some really experienced and quality military pilots not getting called.  

Yet seeing new hire classes with a lot of pilots under the age of 26.  

 

 

Is their bro network reviewing their apps or are they having them professionally review?  That's the first place I'd be looking.  Do they have a recent "blemish" on their records.  I know a few with DUIs called, but their DUIs were over a decade old when they were in their late teens/early 20s.  I can't imagine why they wouldn't be getting calls right now.