The new airline thread

[Danger41]

Update 2: Anti-skid went out so delayed to fix that but then a storm hit and we’re stuck on the ramp until we can actually fix something.

Mods, feel free to start a new thread of Danger41’s slow descent into psychosis.

[TheNewGazmo]

Update 2: Anti-skid went out so delayed to fix that but then a storm hit and we’re stuck on the ramp until we can actually fix something.
Mods, feel free to start a new thread of Danger41’s slow descent into psychosis.

When I got hired with the airlines, it took everything in me to not let my "military-TypeA-try to fix everything" mentality get the best of me. Just let it ride... you get paid by the minute.

[nunya]

42 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

I mean, the airlines could pay for more staff.

While I wouldn’t turn down more money, money won’t fix this.  The training pipelines are busting at the seams right now.  The planned schedules are a complete pipe dream. Dudes and dudettes are flying their asses off for premium pay. Once a crew times out, all the money in the world can’t move the airplane.  Only a time machine to April 2020 to prevent the overreaction and spite could fix your delay to Denver. 

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, SurelySerious said:

nowadays the CEOs really don’t give a shit about customer service, just about share prices and cutting costs.

This is a growing sickness in our system. The ability to produce an excellent product or provide a great service seems to die with the founder. Then whoever the shareholder-elected board installs to run the company bleeds it dry one CEO at a time until a shell is left. Each pays themselves in stock options, takes on corporate debt to buy back shares and boost the price a few pennies, then quietly leaves a hundred million bucks richer while the stock works it's way down to zero. 

 

And when the consequences of their shitty management finally manifest, they are either long gone or pulling the handle on the golden parachute. Just look at Boeing.

 

Capitalism is being raped by the modern financial system while everyone else argues over bathrooms and abortions. The Democrats have declared war on meritocracy and individualism, both prerequisites to a capitalist system, so that leaves the Republicans to save us. I'm doubtful. Tucker Carlson gets it, but he's a bit quick to embrace a conspiracy and his foreign policy views aren't playing out well either.

 

Who will be our hero?

[SurelySerious]

While I wouldn’t turn down more money, money won’t fix this.  The training pipelines are busting at the seams right now.  The planned schedules are a complete pipe dream. Dudes and dudettes are flying their asses off for premium pay. Once a crew times out, all the money in the world can’t move the airplane.  Only a time machine to April 2020 to prevent the overreaction and spite could fix your delay to Denver. 

Yeah, I meant staff the airline better at all facets like ramp/gate/FA and pilots obvis. You’re right, with the pilot staffing and training level they’re at, all the money won’t fix it. Just time to get trainees through.

[Royal]

7 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Capitalism is being raped by the modern financial system while everyone else argues over bathrooms and abortions.

This is an extremely significant point; the airlines have become a government subsidized cartel, and the normal market forces that would typically clear out the dead weight are no longer in the system. The irony is that the RLA likely exacerbates the issue by not allowing any work actions.

[Danger41]

Final travel update: Made it to Denver after 9 (!) delays due purely to personnel reasons. Arrived home 13 hours after fragged. Both flights also didn’t have a gate to go to so we spent another hour sitting just outside the gate. And then my checked bag got lost. 
 

Other than that, no issues.

[HuggyU2]

14 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

... pulling the handle on the golden parachute. Just look at Boeing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737-max-ceo-severance/boeings-ousted-ceo-departs-with-62-million-even-without-severance-pay-idUSKBN1Z92DQ
 

Disgusting. 

[tac airlifter]

4 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Final travel update: Made it to Denver after 9 (!) delays due purely to personnel reasons. Arrived home 13 hours after fragged. Both flights also didn’t have a gate to go to so we spent another hour sitting just outside the gate. And then my checked bag got lost. 
 

Other than that, no issues.

 

[SocialD]

4 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Final travel update: Made it to Denver after 9 (!) delays due purely to personnel reasons. Arrived home 13 hours after fragged. Both flights also didn’t have a gate to go to so we spent another hour sitting just outside the gate. And then my checked bag got lost. 
 

Other than that, no issues.

 

 

Time to spare, go by air!  Sadly, I'm not surprised at your experience and wouldn't expect it to have been all that much better at any one of the other carriers.  I cautioned all my friends and family that I wouldn't be planning on counting on the airlines to get me anywhere on-time this summer...absolute shit show out there right now.  I think management is hugely relying on the pilots "get shit done" attitudes and trying to use the "imagine it's your family back there," shtick for us to make the operation flow.  While there are plenty to fall for that, many are starting to fly the contract...

 

 

1 hour ago, HuggyU2 said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737-max-ceo-severance/boeings-ousted-ceo-departs-with-62-million-even-without-severance-pay-idUSKBN1Z92DQ
 

Disgusting. 

 

 

I expect nothing less from them.  What do they have to gain by doing a good job when they know they'll walk out the door with a golden parachute either way?  

Edited July 15, 2022 by SocialD

[HeyEng]

This is an interesting video, in a nutshell the video claims that airlines have essentially become banks (due to things like loyalty programs) and actuall flying passengers around is a secondary business.

 

[Sua Sponte]

Makes sense since both banks and airlines are some of the first industries to ask for bailouts once the economy starts getting shitty.

[SocialD]

Another good video on the matter.  Not sure if this has been posted on here before.  

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by SocialD

[FDNYOldGuy]

Adding another Wendover video (cause they're really well done and they become a wormhole I've fallen down more than a few times) about fuel prices likely not going anywhere. If this video is correct we, the airlines and pax (or drivers in general), will have to factor in high fuel costs for the foreseeable. Not sure how that all dances with a (likely) economic slowdown/reduced travel, inability to lower ticket prices without being red for fuel costs, etc., but it could be something big in the calculus for potential hiring.

It also makes sense when looking at the fact oil was, inflation-adjusted, north of $180/bbl in June 2008, yet prices were not this high at the pump.

 

[Prefontaine]

Sorry to shift the topic for selfish reasons...but maybe someday someone else can benefit from this same question. First world problem question to follow:

I have a CJO with FedEx, and I'm currently working to schedule a UPS interview after they broke 3 months of radio silence on my application. I obviously don't have the job with UPS at this point, but if I go through with the interview (leaning toward this, especially because they're virtual interviews right now) and get a CJO, I have a decision to make. 

Obviously a lot of factors go into deciding between the two, and I'm leaning overall toward FedEx. Although UPS management has an awful reputation, the IPA seems awesome, though, which is making me question this decision.

Additional info that might help:

• 11F background, so I don't have a ton of experience with this stuff. 
• Initially was planning on living somewhere between Indy and Louisville (which made this decision even more difficult), but now I'm anticipating that the family and I will settle down somewhere in New England (i.e. commuting).
• I will not be balancing a guard/reserve job on the side. FDX/UPS while on the road, dad at home. My wife is with our girls full time. 
• FDX pros: well, it's FDX. I've wanted to work for them for a long, long time. No furlough history, great pay, no ties to AMZN anymore, flying-centric culture.
• FDX cons: MEM is awful if we ever wanted to live in base some day (not likely at this point based on updated life plans), widebody vs narrowbody pay scales (like almost everyone else), ALPA seems ok at best.
• UPS pros: spartan / blue collar culture has led to profitability regardless of what the economy is doing, single pay scale (no chasing which aircraft, just a rheostat between max pay and max QOL), IPA union seems awesome. 
• UPS cons: management relationship (to include history of a furlough), truck-centric culture (I'm told to anticipate being treated like a truck driver while on the clock...i.e. 1-2 legs more per night for hub turns), doesn't seem to be as commuter-friendly.

This question might seem like a no-brainer to some, but I have 5x bros who all love UPS (disclaimer: all are domiciled in AK, which I think makes a difference) whereas the APC forums make UPS seem a bit sub-optimal compared to FDX. I know of a few guys who have gone from UPS to FDX, but not the other way around. I'm hesitant to believe the "FedEx is the best place ever, no questions asked" narrative that all my fighter bros continue to promulgate despite only 0-1 year on property (but maybe it is true).

One last note: now that Fred Smith is stepping down, I'm concerned that FDX will become another SWA where the culture leaves with the previous guy in charge. I do not plan on choosing one or the other for intangibles, because those can change very quickly. 

I know this forums has a few who fly for FDX and UPS, so I'd greatly appreciate your input. Hopefully it's a bit less sensational than the feedback I received on the APC forums. Thanks! 

 

[SurelySerious]

Caveat, not at either, however another FDX pro is the travel bank; UPS guys I talk to freely admit the FDX system is better for that.

[HeloDude]

17 hours ago, FDNYOldGuy said:

Adding another Wendover video (cause they're really well done and they become a wormhole I've fallen down more than a few times) about fuel prices likely not going anywhere. If this video is correct we, the airlines and pax (or drivers in general), will have to factor in high fuel costs for the foreseeable. Not sure how that all dances with a (likely) economic slowdown/reduced travel, inability to lower ticket prices without being red for fuel costs, etc., but it could be something big in the calculus for potential hiring.

It also makes sense when looking at the fact oil was, inflation-adjusted, north of $180/bbl in June 2008, yet prices were not this high at the pump.

 

Interesting video—thanks.

Here’s the problem—at the end of the video, the narrator basically says that the high prices are because renewables are in and oil is on its way out (hence why oil suppliers don’t have an incentive to up production and can just enjoy temporary high profits)…but…ask yourself why renewables are the future, and define the future?  The government has literally made it more difficult to get oil out of the ground and gas to the pumps, but yet the government is using tax dollars/regulation incentives to push non-fossil fuel energy sources/vehicles. So of course the government is largely at fault here since they’re literally trying to pick the winners and losers of the future.  I’m all about better (and cleaner) newer forms of energy and transportation, but this is anything but the free market at work.  

So I agree, high (and higher) gas prices are here to stay and it will affect just about everything in the economy—food prices, airline travel, you name it.  The question is how will the economy react?…I don’t think it’s looking too good.  

[NKAWTG]

I'm really uncertain if malice or incompetence is responsible our current energy policies.  The goal is to transition away from fossil fuels and switch to renewables plus a yet to be invented energy storage solution.  And for some reason, we aren't really considering the most efficient solution, nuclear.  This feels like every military exercise where we fairy dust away the hard problems.  

Despite the media's tendency to piss on your leg and tell you it's raining, people won't accept lowing their standards of living for some nebulous climate change goal. 

[Prozac]

4 hours ago, Prefontaine said:

Sorry to shift the topic for selfish reasons...but maybe someday someone else can benefit from this same question. First world problem question to follow:

I have a CJO with FedEx, and I'm currently working to schedule a UPS interview after they broke 3 months of radio silence on my application. I obviously don't have the job with UPS at this point, but if I go through with the interview (leaning toward this, especially because they're virtual interviews right now) and get a CJO, I have a decision to make. 

Obviously a lot of factors go into deciding between the two, and I'm leaning overall toward FedEx. Although UPS management has an awful reputation, the IPA seems awesome, though, which is making me question this decision.

Additional info that might help:

• 11F background, so I don't have a ton of experience with this stuff. 
• Initially was planning on living somewhere between Indy and Louisville (which made this decision even more difficult), but now I'm anticipating that the family and I will settle down somewhere in New England (i.e. commuting).
• I will not be balancing a guard/reserve job on the side. FDX/UPS while on the road, dad at home. My wife is with our girls full time. 
• FDX pros: well, it's FDX. I've wanted to work for them for a long, long time. No furlough history, great pay, no ties to AMZN anymore, flying-centric culture.
• FDX cons: MEM is awful if we ever wanted to live in base some day (not likely at this point based on updated life plans), widebody vs narrowbody pay scales (like almost everyone else), ALPA seems ok at best.
• UPS pros: spartan / blue collar culture has led to profitability regardless of what the economy is doing, single pay scale (no chasing which aircraft, just a rheostat between max pay and max QOL), IPA union seems awesome. 
• UPS cons: management relationship (to include history of a furlough), truck-centric culture (I'm told to anticipate being treated like a truck driver while on the clock...i.e. 1-2 legs more per night for hub turns), doesn't seem to be as commuter-friendly.

This question might seem like a no-brainer to some, but I have 5x bros who all love UPS (disclaimer: all are domiciled in AK, which I think makes a difference) whereas the APC forums make UPS seem a bit sub-optimal compared to FDX. I know of a few guys who have gone from UPS to FDX, but not the other way around. I'm hesitant to believe the "FedEx is the best place ever, no questions asked" narrative that all my fighter bros continue to promulgate despite only 0-1 year on property (but maybe it is true).

One last note: now that Fred Smith is stepping down, I'm concerned that FDX will become another SWA where the culture leaves with the previous guy in charge. I do not plan on choosing one or the other for intangibles, because those can change very quickly. 

I know this forums has a few who fly for FDX and UPS, so I'd greatly appreciate your input. Hopefully it's a bit less sensational than the feedback I received on the APC forums. Thanks! 

 

I think you’re thinking in the right direction in your analysis. Commuting from New England should be doable for either, although as SurelySerious brought up, Purple’s commuter policies/benefits are objectively better than UPS. As far as management styles go, I’d say it’s good to think of it this way: FedEx is an airline that happens to run some trucks. UPS is a trucking company that runs its airline almost as an afterthought. IPA unity is a direct result of constantly dealing with a management style that wouldn’t look out of place in the 1940s. Remember that old Army Lieutenant’s guide that said all enlisted troops are lying thieving dogs who need constant oversight and liberal discipline? Well, that’s how UPS looks at all hourly employees, including pilots. We’re highly overpaid aerial truck drivers in Atlanta’s eyes. IPA has made great strides for this pilot group but the union is far from perfect. IMO the union worked very well when we were a sub 2000 pilot group that was mostly based in Louisville. As other domiciles have grown rapidly along with international flying, I think the union is experiencing some growing pains. Nothing that we won’t overcome & I think we have some genuinely smart people on our executive board, but it may not be the nothing but rainbows and unicorns you may have heard about. Bottom line: I wouldn’t turn down a job at either. Brown and Purple are alone in that they still offer defined benefit plans & they are uniquely insulated (although not immune) to economic downturns. If you end up with offers from both, I’d probably do a deep dive into which one will be easier to commute to. Try and talk with people at both who live where you do & focus on ease of getting to work on company and/or offline jumpseat options. Can’t speak to Purple but Brown is largely a weekday airline (at least domestically) which can make getting to work on a Saturday or Sunday difficult as SDF is generally at least two legs on the airlines unless you’re in someplace like Atlanta or Dallas. 

[FLEA]

On 7/17/2022 at 4:48 PM, HeyEng said:

This is an interesting video, in a nutshell the video claims that airlines have essentially become banks (due to things like loyalty programs) and actuall flying passengers around is a secondary business.

 

11:15 "The argument to be made is the airline is there to service the financial operate and not the other way around"

Holy shit boyz.... the self licking ice cream cone shoe clerks took over the airlines..... where will we have to go? 

[Blue]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:22 PM, HeloDude said:

Here’s the problem—at the end of the video, the narrator basically says that the high prices are because renewables are in and oil is on its way out (hence why oil suppliers don’t have an incentive to up production and can just enjoy temporary high profits)…but…ask yourself why renewables are the future, and define the future?  

 

On 7/18/2022 at 2:34 PM, NKAWTG said:

I'm really uncertain if malice or incompetence is responsible our current energy policies.  The goal is to transition away from fossil fuels and switch to renewables plus a yet to be invented energy storage solution.  And for some reason, we aren't really considering the most efficient solution, nuclear.

This feels like every military exercise where we fairy dust away the hard problems.

When the topic of "energy policy" comes up, I've defaulted to tuning it all out.  There is just such an absurd amount of nonsense around climate change, electric cars/planes/trains, decarbonization, etc.  Anyone who tries to ask any legitimate technical or scientific questions is shouted down as a heretic.

Our current standard of living depends on burning hydrocarbons.  Politicians and other talking heads can do all the hand waving they want, it doesn't change that fact.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Blue

[SurelySerious]

Our current standard of living depends on burning hydrocarbons.  Politicians and other talking heads can do all the hand waving they want, it doesn't change that fact.

As evidenced by those same politicians keeping their hydrocarbon heavy luxury lifestyles.

[HuggyU2]

6 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

As evidenced by those same politicians keeping their hydrocarbon heavy luxury lifestyles.

Kerry's trying to cutback, though.  

https://nypost.com/2022/07/19/climate-buster-biden-green-czar-john-kerrys-jet-unleashes-tons-of-co2/

[Springer]

On 7/18/2022 at 12:07 PM, Prefontaine said:

 

 

• FDX cons: MEM is awful if we ever wanted to live in base some day (not likely at this point based on updated life plans), widebody vs narrowbody pay scales (like almost everyone else), ALPA seems ok at best.

 

Had an ATC hold one day passing through MEM.  While waiting the CSA working my flight came down to chat and get away from the paxs at the gate.  Long story short, I married her and got her the hell out of MEM.

[HuggyU2]

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2022/07/20/pilot-walks-off-plane-and-abandons-passengers-because-he-had-a-fight-with-the-co-pilot-before-takeoff/
 

An important case study in CRM.