The new airline thread

[Smokin]

23 hours ago, SocialD said:

I know we (DAL) had a few dudes who spoke at indoc, in which I witnesses (dude was moved out of that job due to his antics) and a particular CPO...mostly words.  In practice, in my 9th year at Delta, I've honestly felt little hate and I've gone on every deployment/TDY, many of which were over the Christmas holiday season.  If someone mentions it, drill down a bit and find out what caused it...frankly, some of the things guys have done, I'm shocked they were surprised they got asked for proof of their MLOA.  You want to see some mloa hate, ask your FDX bros about taking MLOA during peak (well not this year...apparently they're having a slow down). 

Delta has gotten much better since they moved the dude you're talking about.  I know guys that have recorded his speeches and conversations because he said blatantly illegal things while representing Delta.  That being said, of the big three, I think Delta is still the least military friendly, but that margin has shrunk considerably in the last 4 years.  For example, I think that if you were sitting long call and went into the squadron and knocked out a sim, I understand that would be an issue with Delta, but I don't think United or American would care.  But if I were a new guy and had CJOs at two of the three, the margin is slim enough that I wouldn't even consider it in my choice.

 

As to the outside employment, it is commander and JAG approval.  Commander basically signs that your employment won't affect your service (easy if you're just dropping two weeks of leave for indoc) and the JAG signs that it wouldn't be illegal (like working park time for Lockmart on a project you oversee in your military job).

[icohftb]

Userra won't cover you though if youbstart employment while on AD

[ThreeHoler]

With the airlines starting to pull out all the stops to hire retiring/separating military pilots, does anyone know if there’s talk of waiving or making a military competency exam (like they do for the commercial certificate) for an ATP certificate?

I know a guy who put together a package to show MAF training was equivalent to doing the ATP-CTP. He was basically told by big AF to stop his efforts.


Besides, you already don’t need an ATP to get hired. Lots of my friends were hired with just the written. All that said though, the cost of an ATP is a very tiny entrance fee to a good job.

[Guardian]

Userra won't cover you though if youbstart employment while on AD

Not true. Nothing in USERRA says you have to quit the orders you are on to take an outside or civilian job.

[icohftb]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

Not true. Nothing in USERRA says you have to quit the orders you are on to take an outside or civilian job.

A while back I inquired with DOL. The rep explained that if you are on active duty and get a job while on active duty (with commanders approval) then you aren't protected. The airline union military affairs rep told me the same.

Edited November 19, 2022 by icohftb

[icohftb]

Also talking straight AD. If AGR it would be easy to resign your AGR get hired and go right back

[Guardian]

A while back I inquired with DOL. The rep explained that if you are on active duty and get a job while on active duty (with commanders approval) then you aren't protected. The airline union military affairs rep told me the same.

Copy. Must be an active duty thing. What I said above was expressed probably by the same people that told you you couldn’t.

[WheelsOff]

On 11/18/2022 at 7:33 AM, SocialD said:

 

 

The union won't have a say if the company hires them, especially if they put them through an indoc class.  

 

True, but what will the civilian background dudes think? I’d bet there’d be a mutiny since they wouldn’t have been afforded the same hiring “privileges” in this scenario. 

[nunya]

56 minutes ago, WheelsOff said:

True, but what will the civilian background dudes think? I’d bet there’d be a mutiny since they wouldn’t have been afforded the same hiring “privileges” in this scenario. 

Plenty of civilian flow hires got seniority numbers weeks or months ahead of actually starting class. 

[BashiChuni]

25 minutes ago, nunya said:

Plenty of civilian flow hires got seniority numbers weeks or months ahead of actually starting class. 

Apples to oranges 

[Smokin]

8 hours ago, icohftb said:

A while back I inquired with DOL. The rep explained that if you are on active duty and get a job while on active duty (with commanders approval) then you aren't protected. The airline union military affairs rep told me the same.

I'm not a lawyer and if the DOL doesn't back you, then it is fairly worthless.  But, nowhere in USERRA does it state you have to be on a "new set of orders" or "start service". 

"The term 'service in the uniformed services' means the performance of duty on a voluntary
or involuntary basis in a uniformed service under competent authority and includes: active duty,
active duty for training, initial active duty for training, inactive duty training, full-time National
Guard, a period for which a person is absent from a position of employment for the purpose of
an examination to determine the fitness of the employment for the purpose of performing
funeral honors duty as authorized by section 12503 of title 10 or section 115 of title 32."

Additionally, in the anti-discrimination section:

"(a) A person who is a member of, applies to be a member of, performs, has performed, applies
to perform, or has an obligation to perform service in a uniformed service shall not be denied
initial employment, reemployment, retention in employment, promotion, or any benefit of
employment by an employer on the basis of that membership, application for membership,
performance of service, application for service, or obligation."

Finally, in the all important re-employment section:

"...any person whose absence from a position of employment is necessitated by reason of service in the uniformed services shall be entitled to the reemployment rights and benefits and other employment benefits of this chapter..."

Again, fairly worthless if the DOL's official position is that it wouldn't apply if you are currently on active duty.  If they don't enforce it, you'd have to sue and convince a judge which would be a lot of work, but this seems pretty clear to me.  Maybe the DOL has the same problem the airlines have.  All sorts of experts that are eager to tell you everything about the law while they have never read it themselves.

[HuggyU2]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:33 AM, SocialD said:

The union won't have a say if the company hires them, especially if they put them through an indoc class.  

If it affects seniority... and this certainly does... I would bet my bottom dollar that the union would be involved. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by HuggyU2

[AirGuardianC141747]

3 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

True, but what will the civilian background dudes think? I’d bet there’d be a mutiny since they wouldn’t have been afforded the same hiring “privileges” in this scenario. 

Just me - Don’t care what they think as it’s more of a reward than a labeled privilege. It’s been a “privilege” to serve, serve others especially before serving yourself, hence service before self. Many have made the ultimate sacrifice for those who have been granted the freedom to serve themselves throughout their entire life and nothing more. I as most on here have served or continue to serve and now make no mistake I serve myself just below the highest authority like any civilian for the most part does. Not even in the same food group as apple’s to oranges. If you take your oath seriously it’s above and beyond what most can comprehend. Once again, personally don’t care what they think and have come across a few uneducated in life aspects. If ever challenged in any capacity just roll with it and state, “like you I enjoy the freedom provided to serve my SELF, my family, etc at no real cost.” A bit strong or blunt, but it gets the point across. Do not succumb to “privilege.”

*Not to hold up in a court law by any means as it is in reference to what others may “think” so it’s emotional based only. Company and Unions will do what they do it is what it is.

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by AirGuardianC141747

[FourFans]

1 hour ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

Just me - Don’t care what they think as it’s more of a reward than a labeled privilege. It’s been a “privilege” to serve, serve others especially before serving yourself, hence service before self. Many have made the ultimate sacrifice for those who have been granted the freedom to serve themselves throughout their entire life and nothing more. I as most on here have served or continue to serve and now make no mistake I serve myself just below the highest authority like any civilian for the most part does. Not even in the same food group as apple’s to oranges. If you take your oath seriously it’s above and beyond what most can comprehend. Once again, personally don’t care what they think and have come across a few uneducated in life aspects. If ever challenged in any capacity just roll with it and state, “like you I enjoy the freedom provided to serve my SELF, my family, etc at no real cost.” A bit strong or blunt, but it gets the point across. Do not succumb to “privilege.”

*Not to hold up in a court law by any means as it is in reference to what others may “think” so it’s emotional based only. Company and Unions will do what they do it is what it is.

 

hello mister ACMI man.  I've met you in another forum.  Your drunken posts are just as...stated....

Thank you for your service.

[WheelsOff]

1 hour ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

Just me - Don’t care what they think as it’s more of a reward than a labeled privilege. It’s been a “privilege” to serve, serve others especially before serving yourself, hence service before self. Many have made the ultimate sacrifice for those who have been granted the freedom to serve themselves throughout their entire life and nothing more. I as most on here have served or continue to serve and now make no mistake I serve myself just below the highest authority like any civilian for the most part does. Not even in the same food group as apple’s to oranges. If you take your oath seriously it’s above and beyond what most can comprehend. Once again, personally don’t care what they think and have come across a few uneducated in life aspects. If ever challenged in any capacity just roll with it and state, “like you I enjoy the freedom provided to serve my SELF, my family, etc at no real cost.” A bit strong or blunt, but it gets the point across. Do not succumb to “privilege.”

*Not to hold up in a court law by any means as it is in reference to what others may “think” so it’s emotional based only. Company and Unions will do what they do it is what it is.

 

As a mil guy myself, selfishly, yeah, it would have been awesome to get a line number in advance like that. 

But my point was that the civilian background guys probably aren’t gonna see it that way and would raise hell within the union over the fact that one particular demographic is being given an “unfair advantage” (probably the term I should have used originally instead of “privilege”) in gaining seniority over others before stepping foot on property. 

I’m sure the reason we haven’t seen this happen (and won’t) is because the companies/unions both want to avoid the lawsuits that would inevitably ensue.

I think the closest thing we’ll see for now is what companies like Delta are starting to do by formally announcing initiatives to give out CJOs a year in advance. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

11 minutes ago, WheelsOff said:

As a mil guy myself, selfishly, yeah, it would have been awesome to get a line number in advance like that. 

But my point was that the civilian background guys probably aren’t gonna see it that way and would raise hell within the union over the fact that one particular demographic is being given an “unfair advantage” (probably the term I should have used originally instead of “privilege”) in gaining seniority over others before stepping foot on property. 

I’m sure the reason we haven’t seen this happen (and won’t) is because the companies/unions both want to avoid the lawsuits that would inevitably ensue.

I think the closest thing we’ll see for now is what companies like Delta are starting to do by formally announcing initiatives to give out CJOs a year in advance. 

I see your point and yes it would have been great to capitalize on this situation and I wish the best to those who are able to to it. No worries here as I should have been more spot on with there have been a few discussions with folks who view the military training as a free ticket to success with no idea what sacrifices are made to include your family unit. This includes the mil leave rants that go on. There have been some shenanigans, but for the most part it works out.  I don’t know if it’s right or wrong regarding the seniority as it’s well above and beyond my pay grade. If it came to fruition or not it’s probably not something to squawk about either way. Agree with the legality issues that would inevitably ensue.

[AirGuardianC141747]

37 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

hello mister ACMI man.  I've met you in another forum.  Your drunken posts are just as...stated....

Thank you for your service.

Thank You for your service and I wish I had the drunken excuse. Wouldn’t be hard to remedy that and could you imagine what I might post if I were. Fortunately I have a breathalyzer attached to this equipment. Hope your new gig is treating you great! 

[SocialD]

On 11/19/2022 at 8:35 AM, Smokin said:

Delta has gotten much better since they moved the dude you're talking about.  I know guys that have recorded his speeches and conversations because he said blatantly illegal things while representing Delta.  That being said, of the big three, I think Delta is still the least military friendly, but that margin has shrunk considerably in the last 4 years.  For example, I think that if you were sitting long call and went into the squadron and knocked out a sim, I understand that would be an issue with Delta, but I don't think United or American would care.  But if I were a new guy and had CJOs at two of the three, the margin is slim enough that I wouldn't even consider it in my choice.

 

 

Your last sentence is spot on.  To the sim thing, has anyone here ever been asked to prove the didn't do any mloa while on a reserve day?  I know I haven't, nor has any of the 20+ DAL squadron mates I've had over the years.  If so, I'd like to see the whole picture because I'm guessing there is much more to the story.  I'm generally the last one to defend the company, but the 1% is out there...and they're often the loudest complainers and the stories you hear about. If you have a CPO friend (or just chat with CPO mil dude on a sit), ask if they're willing to share stories of guys who found themselves on the radar.  My guess is you'll be quite surprised at what some of the dudes are doing out there. 

 

 

21 hours ago, icohftb said:

A while back I inquired with DOL. The rep explained that if you are on active duty and get a job while on active duty (with commanders approval) then you aren't protected. The airline union military affairs rep told me the same.

 

 

I believe USERRA is the minimum protection a company HAS to offer.  If the company offered such a program, you wouldn't need USERRA protections because the company is voluntarily going above and beyond.

 

 

11 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

If it affects seniority... and this certainly does... I would bet my bottom dollar that the union would be involved. 

 

 

Maybe, but at the end of the day, the company can hire who they choose, put them through indoc and let them go on a leave.  So they may be involved, but I can't imagine they can stop such a plan, nor would I understand why they would.

[brabus]

On 11/19/2022 at 6:35 AM, Smokin said:

That being said, of the big three, I think Delta is still the least military friendly

Aside from the two guys who sued DAL, and a host of 10% true stories, I’d say this is inaccurate, at least in the last several years. DAL doesn’t give a shit about MLOA stuff just as much as the next guy.
Anyone who does catch actual flak from any of the big companies is likely doing egregiously shady shit. I think literally every “non-friendly to MLOA” story I’ve heard about any airline is complete bullshit. Job-hunting guys out there should factor this subject exactly 0% in their decision-making process. 

[uhhello]

Could be an issue with single pilot ops....

Damn.  Didn't realize he didn't make it.  

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by uhhello

[viperdriver1313]

[TreeA10]

Didnt know a felony conviction went in the plus column on getting hired  

https://www.dailywire.com/news/jetblue-wont-hire-the-unvaxxed-but-hired-violent-felon-to-fly-planes

[brabus]

That is insane any airline hired that guy; if anything this is more in Spirit’s wheelhouse than JB’s!

[ThreeHoler]

Well, there’s no shower on the airplanes so he isn’t likely to attack anyone’s daughter, right?


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[ItnStln]

6 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

Didnt know a felony conviction went in the plus column on getting hired  

https://www.dailywire.com/news/jetblue-wont-hire-the-unvaxxed-but-hired-violent-felon-to-fly-planes

It helps with diversity.