The new airline thread

[FLEA]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

You/your spouse has never paid someone to watch your children…like a baby sitter?  Do you homeschool as well?  If so, good on you…but most people have allowed their children at one point or another to be in the care of someone else who is not a close friend/family member.  And I don’t know anyone who would be ok with allowing a convicted murderer, rapists, or child molester to be in care of their children.  
 

Likewise I think we can find adequate applicants, who have not been convicted of violent crimes, to professionally fly planes with passengers.  

We did one time and came back to our apartment early to find other kids that were not ours running around our home and our child being neglected. Lady double booked us and didn't want to admit it so she thought she would hide other family's kids at our place. Will never do that again. Came highly recommended, no criminal past, etc.... Just an example how all of that can be meaningless. 

Its not about whether you can or can't find anyone. I just don't care. It doesn't bother me if someone has successfully repented. That's not an overnight process and certainly doesn't happen the moment they're released from prison. But like I said, some of the most amazing contributions to society have been made by individuals actively seeking redemption. You're all jumping to the conclusion that this person committed homicide. The vast majority of felonies are drug related or assault. The assault charges are often complicated as well. We'd like to believe it was some dude who snapped and pummeled someone but it's usually a bar fight or some aggressive shoving that someone didn't like. Not that those things are bad but those are circumstances that are easy for most people to imagine themselves in. Especially in a society that feels strongly protective of their family and loved ones. (Yeah most of your self defense scenarios are not going to fly legal muster, especially in many liberal states where there are expectations to retreat, no stand your ground statutes.) 

I don't really find anything all that special about the job of flying airplanes that I wouldn't be able to trust the vast majority of people who are appropriately trained to do it. Yeah you can have discussions about judgement and decision making. But I've literally flown with dozens of pilots who have made absolutely terrible decisions either flying or in another aspect of their life, and they were still allowed to fly. 

Lets also not forget we live in a society that has deemed it ok to weaponize law enforcement to meet ends on political and personal vendettas; as well as the fact that legal, moral and ethical are all different concepts and rarely overlap neatly. 

 

 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Everyone has circumstances, variables, excuses, whatever, but in the end normally have had a choice. Definitely don’t want to be on the bad side of a setup no doubt regarding law enforcement, etc. Don’t recall anyone specifically pointing the finger as homicide, but beating someone brutally or even just a few times should have its consequences. You can do your best to redeem yourself curing cancer or just being an upstanding citizen but to think you should be privileged to be on equal ground to those who maintained the path for all opportunities is just ludicrous. Correct about self defense if you dare to live in one of those states in a foolish state of mind. I don’t live in those areas like many others so there’s no run, skip crawl away, grovel and it’s not like we want anything to happen regardless. It may not bode well for myself or others (targets if you will), but if possible we would all like to have a fighting chance. Everyone has choices and we all must live with those choices. If rightfully convicted, guilty, etc. that’s on you. 

*Case in point - Running interview boards for UPT and a candidate mentioned they had a DUI only when asked. They did have a “good story” and they were 16 at the time. Person was 25 or so and we discussed the matter not to condemn them quickly for an early mistake. Great candidate in person, on paper and many recommendations from state officials/influential contacts. Afterwards we always do a deep dive into driving records and other contacts. Turns out his second DUI was within the past year. Case closed despite pressure from above to hire, but initially we were hoping the lesson was learned the first time. One case of many that requires your due diligence.

Definitely agree there are quite a few who shouldn’t be on the flight deck, but there will always be a FedEx Spearman, Malaysian flt, German Wings, etc., so it is better to weed out those with a track record or proven history of instability, bad judgement, etc. if at all possible. Proven is the focal point.

[Homestar]

19 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Not at all.  Dude literally said he didn’t care if someone is a former felon wrt hiring for a job.  I then asked him if he will hire a specific type of felon for a specific type of job.

I mean, but it is tho, right?

You changed the argument to ask about hypothetical child sexual predator which wasn't the original argument.  So you are building up a really good argument against something, just not the original argument.  I suppose you're just asking for clarification on if all felonies are the same in his view?

A better question would have been: Does this guy have the judgment required to operate heavy machinery based on his prior conviction?

 

[Homestar]

19 hours ago, Smokin said:

But this is the problem.  People who have a history of poor decision making, let alone extremely poor decision making, should not be flying plane loads with hundreds of people in them. 

I hope that people who have made poor decisions have the ability to recover from them and lead a productive life.  But there are decisions that will close doors.  If I ran a construction company, I would consider hiring an individual that had a violent criminal past if that person showed that he was doing everything possible to turn his life around.  But as a pilot?  Absolutely not.

See? This is not a straw man.

[HeloDude]

4 hours ago, Homestar said:

I mean, but it is tho, right?

You changed the argument to ask about hypothetical child sexual predator which wasn't the original argument.  So you are building up a really good argument against something, just not the original argument.  I suppose you're just asking for clarification on if all felonies are the same in his view?

A better question would have been: Does this guy have the judgment required to operate heavy machinery based on his prior conviction?

 

The dude literally was speaking in generalities about felons being able to reintegrate into our society by getting a job they would have been able to get before their felony…so I asked him if he would be ok with hiring a certain kind of a felon for a certain kind of job.  Not sure if you know what a strawman is, but asking a question within the bounds of the general argument is not a strawman.

Had he had only said “I’m ok with pilots who are convicted felons going back to flying commercial airplanes” and I reply “So you must be ok with hiring a convicted child molester to watch your kids”…then that would have been a strawman.

[Homestar]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Not sure if you know what a strawman

Thanks for the lesson. 

[SocialD]

So anyway...back to airline talk.  

 

Does any other airline union allow those of you out on MLOA to vote on TAs?  The union says we can't vote because we're not an "active" member.  Seems ridiculous I can't vote when a contract has such a big impact on me and I'll be back from mloa in May.  

[AirGuardianC141747]

Totally agree it seems ridiculous not being able to vote while serving your country while retaining the job you have. Overall it would be nice if we could vote at our outfit on a contract period but I digress. I did ask to take union surveys when they become available, but I was declared “inactive” as not a paying member if I recall - no dues no representation until back on property. Maybe some other outfits allow this and others will chime in.

[Duck]

I think at SWA I am allowed to vote. Someone correct me if I am wrong.


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[AirGuardianC141747]

That would be great; therefore, setting a precedent is key and creating a way forward. Good stuff Duck.

[FUSEPLUG]

10 hours ago, Duck said:

I think at SWA I am allowed to vote. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

I would be shocked if you weren’t while on MLOA. You’re still a member of SWAPA.

I was in newhire training during the 2015 TA1 and we were all allowed to vote. We had little clue what a turd it was at the time, but we were able to vote. 

[Hugo Stiglitz]

On 12/6/2022 at 8:40 AM, SocialD said:

So anyway...back to airline talk.  

 

Does any other airline union allow those of you out on MLOA to vote on TAs?  The union says we can't vote because we're not an "active" member.  Seems ridiculous I can't vote when a contract has such a big impact on me and I'll be back from mloa in May.  

That’s interesting…at first I thought that could be a USERRA violation based on discrimination as a result of military service, but then I realized it’s the union not letting you vote. I guess the company can be accused of discrimination by deeming you an inactive employee? A couple years ago SWA lost a lawsuit for not making 401k NECs to members out on mil leave. Now when we’re out we get a contribution based on our average monthly credit.

Presumably your union has a military committee that has considered it already, but I still call BS that you’re not allowed to vote!

Edited December 8, 2022 by Hugo Stiglitz

[SocialD]

12 hours ago, FUSEPLUG said:

I would be shocked if you weren’t while on MLOA. You’re still a member of SWAPA.

I was in newhire training during the 2015 TA1 and we were all allowed to vote. We had little clue what a turd it was at the time, but we were able to vote. 

 

 

Interesting, we can't vote until we're off probation.  Let us know if you happen to find out for sure if MLOA guys can vote.

 

 

9 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

That’s interesting…at first I thought that could be a USERRA violation based on discrimination as a result of military service, but then I realized it’s the union not letting you vote. I guess the company can be accused of discrimination by deeming you an inactive employee? A couple years ago SWA lost a lawsuit for not making 401k NECs to members out on mil leave. Now when we’re out we get a contribution based on our average monthly credit.

Presumably your union has a military committee that has considered it already, but I still call BS that you’re not allowed to vote!

 

 

Ya it's the union that says we can't vote because we're in an inactive status.  I quoted USERRA below, but I that's really for the employers, so I'm not sure if the same applies unions.  The union says it's because we're in an inactive status.  I think there are other absences in which you can't vote either, I'm just surprised that it's a thing for MLOA with all the protections we have.  I'm out 5 months for an activation and it's crazy I won't get vote on something as big as a new contract.  I mean it's not the end of the world, just seems odd.   I just talked with a UAL friend who says they're not allowed to vote on MLOA either...makes sense since we're both ALPA.

 

 

Quote

Rights Not Based on Seniority

Section 4316 (b) / 20 CFR 1002.149-150

During a period of service, the employees must be treated as if they are on a furlough or leave of absence. Consequently, during their period of service they are entitled to participate in any rights and benefits not based on seniority that are available to employees on comparable nonmilitary leaves of absence, whether paid or unpaid. If there is a variation in benefits among different types of nonmilitary leaves of absence, the service member is entitled to the most favorable treatment so long as the nonmilitary leave is comparable.

Employees are entitled not only to nonseniority rights and benefits available at the time they left for military service, but also those that become effective during their service and that are provided to similarly situated employees on furlough or leave of absence.

 

[TheNewGazmo]

 

Interesting. I can swear l have had to send APA union dues on ML for 30+ days, but maybe I am imagining things. Are you inactive if you still pay dues?

It probably should have been something written into USERRA, but it was forgotten.

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[brabus]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:22 PM, viperdriver1313 said:

 

love it !

DAL has updated “12 months” to “2 years” for AD and ARC. If you have orders ending < 2.5 years, you’d be crazy not to have an app in!
 

 

 

[SocialD]

13 hours ago, TheNewGazmo said:

Interesting. I can swear l have had to send APA union dues on ML for 30+ days, but maybe I am imagining things. Are you inactive if you still pay dues?

It probably should have been something written into USERRA, but it was forgotten.

 

 

I've worked for 3 airlines (one being AAL) and I don't believe I've ever paid dues while on long term MLOA.  If you're not earning income, what is there to pay dues on?  Are you sure it wasn't payment for some kind of optional insurance or dental/vision plans?  But yes, if you were paying dues, then you sure as hell should get to vote.  

 

Talked to a few UAL guys who said they're the same as us, no voting while out on long term MLOA.  I also just received an e-mail from the company saying that, my hunch on vacation bidding was correct.  Our vacation bidding starts in Jan and ends 1APR (start of our vacation year).  Since we'll be on MLOA (activation orders) a few days past 1APR, we won't get to bid for vacation.  When we return, we basically gets what's left over...fuck you very much for your service!  

[brabus]

2 hours ago, SocialD said:

Since we'll be on MLOA (activation orders) a few days past 1APR, we won't get to bid for vacation.  When we return, we basically gets what's left over...fuck you very much for your service!  

[Lord Ratner]

Boy, I have bad news for the commentators here who aren't familiar with unions. You've got some of the most unstable people I've ever met in my life flying planes every day, and they are almost perfectly shielded from any consequences by the way unionized work functions. 

 

Off the top of my head, there is a guy who threw the TV out the hotel window because it didn't have the channel he wanted. The guy who shot his neighbor's mailbox multiple times because he was mad at him. The guy who got caught creeping around the union headquarters at night on the security cameras. The guy who called flight attendants "sugar tits" in 2020. The guy who punched a gate agent in a foreign country. The multitude of pilots who have shown me graphic, personal sexual photos in the cockpit. Guys who have entire second families in South America. I have one guy explained to me the whole Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy. How Kanye West's vice presidential running mate in 2020 was one of the Epstein child prostitutes who had been drained of their blood by the billionaires, and who had a demon possessing her body. He was dead serious.

 

At a certain point, you just realize that there are lunatics everywhere. My friends in the medical profession have stories about highly credentialed surgeons and specialists that are quite similar. 

[SocialD]

4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Boy, I have bad news for the commentators here who aren't familiar with unions. You've got some of the most unstable people I've ever met in my life flying planes every day, and they are almost perfectly shielded from any consequences by the way unionized work functions. 

 

Off the top of my head, there is a guy who threw the TV out the hotel window because it didn't have the channel he wanted. The guy who shot his neighbor's mailbox multiple times because he was mad at him. The guy who got caught creeping around the union headquarters at night on the security cameras. The guy who called flight attendants "sugar tits" in 2020. The guy who punched a gate agent in a foreign country. The multitude of pilots who have shown me graphic, personal sexual photos in the cockpit. Guys who have entire second families in South America. I have one guy explained to me the whole Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy. How Kanye West's vice presidential running mate in 2020 was one of the Epstein child prostitutes who had been drained of their blood by the billionaires, and who had a demon possessing her body. He was dead serious.

 

At a certain point, you just realize that there are lunatics everywhere. My friends in the medical profession have stories about highly credentialed surgeons and specialists that are quite similar. 

 

 

There was also an airline pilot who chainsawed his wife up and put her through a wood-chipper.  As to the sugar-tits comments by a pilot, while I wouldn't advise doing that...I have had much, much worse stuff said to me by female flight attendants.  Of course, those FAs have been here long enough to remember when people used to have fun on overnights, back before the world started getting offended by everything lol.

[TreeA10]

Comment from an old school Flight Attendant: "Sexual harassment will not only be tolerated, it will be graded."

 

[HuggyU2]

14 hours ago, SocialD said:

There was also an airline pilot who chainsawed his wife up and put her through a wood-chipper.  

Crafts got released from prison, FYI. 

https://www.oxygen.com/crime-news/richard-crafts-who-fed-helle-crafts-into-wood-chipper-freed?amp

[TreeA10]

I've known some military guys to do some really crazy stuff and end up incarcerated so I wouldn't single out airline pilots for bizarre behavior.  That being said, I flew with our VP of Flight and asked him what was the strangest thing he had to deal with as a Chief Pilot.  He said he got a call from a County Sheriff in Tennessee  that had arrested one of our pilots because he was running up and down the street barking at cars....while naked.  The pilot got help and returned to flying.  I flew with a former Domicile President and asked the same question.  He told me he got a call because one of our pilots had trashed his hotel room on a layover and was found passed out drunk in the room....with a goat.  Not sure of what became of the pilot or the goat.

 

[brabus]

1 hour ago, TreeA10 said:

He told me he got a call because one of our pilots had trashed his hotel room on a layover and was found passed out drunk in the room....with a goat

Obviously in ICN, fell for the age old lie of “we’ll just grab one kettle and then head back to the hotel.”

[Danger41]

2 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

I've known some military guys to do some really crazy stuff and end up incarcerated so I wouldn't single out airline pilots for bizarre behavior.  That being said, I flew with our VP of Flight and asked him what was the strangest thing he had to deal with as a Chief Pilot.  He said he got a call from a County Sheriff in Tennessee  that had arrested one of our pilots because he was running up and down the street barking at cars....while naked.  The pilot got help and returned to flying.  I flew with a former Domicile President and asked the same question.  He told me he got a call because one of our pilots had trashed his hotel room on a layover and was found passed out drunk in the room....with a goat.  Not sure of what became of the pilot or the goat.

 

“Or the goat” lmao

[Biff_T]

On 12/23/2022 at 4:50 AM, SocialD said:

 

 

There was also an airline pilot who chainsawed his wife up and put her through a wood-chipper.  

That's one way to do it.  Lol