The new airline thread

[SurelySerious]

So they changed flows/callouts and handed them out on a pamphlet with a slap on the ass and a “go get ‘em boys!” Sounds awesome.

Yeah. I ASAP’d some problems that happened due to this confusion earlier this month, and the response from the safety people was that “these things happen with any change.”

Essentially from flying with a few different captains now the ones trying to do all the changes are confused AF and there are constant questions about who’s doing what (turns out if your attention is on that you don’t pay attention to other things); my remedy was I got directive so things just got done based on situation regardless of changes, but that means no standardization and takes more focus (captain was lower SA). The better captains (for task accomplishment and cockpit cohesion) are essentially following the old procedures and making fun of a few of the callout changes; there’s no question who’s doing what -inherently more safe in that sense- but if something does happen I guarantee the company is going to say “yOu WeReNt FoLlOwInG pRoCeDuRe.”

[disgruntledemployee]

Changes AA to procedures aside, why the hell did that crew continue the flight?  They nearly caused a WB/NB collision.  I'll bet the entire flight was a distraction of what they just did.  I'm willing to bet the controller that made the abort call (not exact words, I know) was taken off shift, because, ATC needed to review everything to see where the mistakes were made and can't have a controller continue duties until cleared.  Delta crew made the right call.  If the AA crew called someone, that someone should have pulled them from the flight, so that's at least two levels of poor decision making. 

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, disgruntledemployee said:

Changes AA to procedures aside, why the hell did that crew continue the flight?  They nearly caused a WB/NB collision.  I'll bet the entire flight was a distraction of what they just did.  I'm willing to bet the controller that made the abort call (not exact words, I know) was taken off shift, because, ATC needed to review everything to see where the mistakes were made and can't have a controller continue duties until cleared.  Delta crew made the right call.  If the AA crew called someone, that someone should have pulled them from the flight, so that's at least two levels of poor decision making. 

We had a crew in the tanker fail to pressurize. The maintainers in the back all passed out, pissed themselves, etc. One even busted his head. The boom had to drag one up front to get him on oxygen. When they finally pressurized the AC decided to fly another 6 hours, at altitude, to the Died. 

 

When people fuck up, they tend to convince themselves that completing the mission will somehow minimize the reality of the fuck up, even if it actually makes it worse.

[uhhello]

54 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

We had a crew in the tanker fail to pressurize. The maintainers in the back all passed out, pissed themselves, etc. One even busted his head. The boom had to drag one up front to get him on oxygen. When they finally pressurized the AC decided to fly another 6 hours, at altitude, to the Died. 

 

When people fuck up, they tend to convince themselves that completing the mission will somehow minimize the reality of the fuck up, even if it actually makes it worse.

holy shit

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

We had a crew in the tanker fail to pressurize. The maintainers in the back all passed out, pissed themselves, etc. One even busted his head. The boom had to drag one up front to get him on oxygen. When they finally pressurized the AC decided to fly another 6 hours, at altitude, to the Died. 

 

When people fuck up, they tend to convince themselves that completing the mission will somehow minimize the reality of the fuck up, even if it actually makes it worse.

That crew was more wrong than a football bat. IIRC we had some “leadership” in the community at the time that was admonishing crews for RTBing after pressurization failures (quite common in the airframe at the time). Couldn’t have helped their already questionable decision making. 

[StoleIt]

4 hours ago, disgruntledemployee said:

Changes AA to procedures aside, why the hell did that crew continue the flight?  They nearly caused a WB/NB collision.  I'll bet the entire flight was a distraction of what they just did.  I'm willing to bet the controller that made the abort call (not exact words, I know) was taken off shift, because, ATC needed to review everything to see where the mistakes were made and can't have a controller continue duties until cleared.  Delta crew made the right call.  If the AA crew called someone, that someone should have pulled them from the flight, so that's at least two levels of poor decision making. 

Last I read it was a CKA and "new" (to the 777) FO. I can't believe they continued either...I guess it must have been premium.

[FLEA]

15 minutes ago, Prozac said:

That crew was more wrong than a football bat. IIRC we had some “leadership” in the community at the time that was admonishing crews for RTBing after pressurization failures (quite common in the airframe at the time). Couldn’t have helped their already questionable decision making. 

I lol'd here. 

[brabus]

10 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

I ASAP’d some problems that happened due to this confusion earlier this month, and the response from the safety people was that “these things happen with any change.”

That’s pretty fucked up. 

[HuggyU2]

The plot thickens...

Maybe the company could occasionally listen to the union inputs on safety.  Having a stellar safety record for many years doesn't happen without cost and effort.  

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2023/01/19/first-officer-on-american-jfk-runway-incursion-flight-had-added-task-at-departure-source-says/?sh=5f15e6cd67ac

[SurelySerious]

Maybe the company could occasionally listen to the union inputs on safety. 

What? No wAAy.

-Bobby “we won’t spend a cent more than we have to” Isom

[tac airlifter]

19 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

The plot thickens...

Maybe the company could occasionally listen to the union inputs on safety.  Having a stellar safety record for many years doesn't happen without cost and effort.  

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2023/01/19/first-officer-on-american-jfk-runway-incursion-flight-had-added-task-at-departure-source-says/?sh=5f15e6cd67ac

Great article, provides a lot of amplifying detail.  Thanks for posting.
 

Why might the Delta pilots not have seen the aircraft crossing in front of them?  Not throwing spears at anyone, and I’ve never been to JFK; just curious what I’m missing.

[Prozac]

53 minutes ago, tac airlifter said:

Great article, provides a lot of amplifying detail.  Thanks for posting.
 

Why might the Delta pilots not have seen the aircraft crossing in front of them?  Not throwing spears at anyone, and I’ve never been to JFK; just curious what I’m missing.

Evidence seems to suggest that Delta had pushed up the power and was rolling at a good clip before American entered the runway (positions are always approximate with apps like flightradar24). They may well have initiated the reject before, or just as tower was canceling their clearance. Tower was right on top of it though so good on them for vigilance. 

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

Evidence seems to suggest that Delta had pushed up the power and was rolling at a good clip before American entered the runway (positions are always approximate with apps like flightradar24). They may well have initiated the reject before, or just as tower was canceling their clearance. Tower was right on top of it though so good on them for vigilance. 

That makes sense, thank you.

[disgruntledemployee]

Regardless of FO duties and changes to such, it's the captain moving the plane.  The taxi instructions were given and read back.  If those instructions differed from the initial taxi plan, the capt should have amended that plan to the crew.  Maybe he/she did, but in moving the plane, fucked it up.  Runway crossings should be a more highly crew coordinated event.  That Forbes article uses a "friend" of the FO source, and as the only source, paints this as the FO was too busy with new changes to make sure the driver followed directions.  So another strike on the capt as he/she didn't properly manage the crew workload if task saturation was an issue.  Maybe at AA, they let FOs do whatever vs stop all tasks for runway crossings.  The last part about the crew not knowing what they caused, I don't buy it.  If you're asked to jot down an ATC phone number and hear the words "possible pilot deviation" those two items should send tons of warning bells off to the crew.  One of them had to realize that they taxied to the wrong runway while they sat there for 30 minutes.  My guess is they set up for 31L and that's why they went there.

If anyone is wondering, my throwing spear is aimed at the AA capt.  I bet a beer the bunkie was texting, but at a minimum was spaced out.

[SurelySerious]

Regardless of FO duties and changes to such, it's the captain moving the plane.  The taxi instructions were given and read back.  If those instructions differed from the initial taxi plan, the capt should have amended that plan to the crew.  Maybe he/she did, but in moving the plane, ed it up.  Runway crossings should be a more highly crew coordinated event.  That Forbes article uses a "friend" of the FO source, and as the only source, paints this as the FO was too busy with new changes to make sure the driver followed directions.  So another strike on the capt as he/she didn't properly manage the crew workload if task saturation was an issue.  Maybe at AA, they let FOs do whatever vs stop all tasks for runway crossings.  The last part about the crew not knowing what they caused, I don't buy it.  If you're asked to jot down an ATC phone number and hear the words "possible pilot deviation" those two items should send tons of warning bells off to the crew.  One of them had to realize that they taxied to the wrong runway while they sat there for 30 minutes.  My guess is they set up for 31L and that's why they went there.
If anyone is wondering, my throwing spear is aimed at the AA capt.  I bet a beer the bunkie was texting, but at a minimum was spaced out.

In theory I agree with you that the buck stops with the CA (also a CKA nonetheless in this instance, definitely ought to know better), but I also keep CAs from doing stupid things constantly. AA loves to tout their Threat Error Management model where all the barriers stop things from getting through all the swiss cheese, but they then they just punched a huge hole through the Standard Procedures barrier at the beginning of the month. That’s where my perspective comes from on saying the company played a role. Absolutely, captain could have stopped or queried any time.

[TreeA10]

Just finished recurrent training and lots of conversation about the JFK incursion and the new procedures. My sim partner was another high time 787 FO and we came close to the new procedures covering everything but erred as to was supposed to do them. We had the same new CKA under supervision on the two sims and they said we did great because we got everything. 
 

I figure it's AAs jet and we can do whatever procedure they want. However, what would have made more sense would have been to implement before start/taxi the first quarter, before takeoff second quarter etc.  And this is without even raising the question why the 787 even needs this crap because we have the awesome ECL (Electronic Checklist).

[SurelySerious]

Just finished recurrent training and lots of conversation about the JFK incursion and the new procedures. My sim partner was another high time 787 FO and we came close to the new procedures covering everything but erred as to was supposed to do them. We had the same new CKA under supervision on the two sims and they said we did great because we got everything. 
 
I figure it's AAs jet and we can do whatever procedure they want. However, what would have made more sense would have been to implement before start/taxi the first quarter, before takeoff second quarter etc.  And this is without even raising the question why the 787 even needs this crap because we have the awesome ECL (Electronic Checklist).

Right, it’s their jet I’ll twist knobs how they prefer sts, but the rollout with no training is dumb. No one knows who’s getting the ATIS, and what bigger tragedy is there? Phased probably would have been better.

And there’s rumor at one point Bobby et al were trying to kill the 787 ECL, which is funny to me. How many pennies can we pinch? Could be a totally bogus story, but sadly believable.

[HossHarris]

ATIS decisions are ALWAYS the number one threat. 

(I see what you did there)

Edited January 20, 2023 by HossHarris

[TreeA10]

2 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

Right, it’s their jet I’ll twist knobs how they prefer sts, but the rollout with no training is dumb. No one knows who’s getting the ATIS, and what bigger tragedy is there? Phased probably would have been better.

And there’s rumor at one point Bobby et al were trying to kill the 787 ECL, which is funny to me. How many pennies can we pinch? Could be a totally bogus story, but sadly believable.

 Boeing said"Hell no" because the jet is certified with the ECL system.

[StoleIt]

Also, what happened to "clear left/right" before crossing a runway?

[brabus]

5 hours ago, StoleIt said:

Also, what happened to "clear left/right" before crossing a runway?

Probably task misprioritization of some type, with likely several CFs leading to that. 

[Smokin]

That also assumes the visibility was good enough.  Strange that the visibility and weather has not been mentioned in any report I've seen.

[BashiChuni]

this could happen to anyone here. in both airplanes. in both seats.

[AirGuardianC141747]

Good point. Besides JFK, ORD, LAX, MIA and many others - try overseas adding to the confusion to include language barriers. I guess some outfits/aircraft will not let the FO taxi like we do in the 74. Captains may have the authority, but I will not hesitate to stop a bad situation if it comes down to the wire. Staying alive to explain is better than the worst alternative.

[bfargin]

All right, which one of you clowns just had to make it home?