The new airline thread

[HeloDude]

Just now, gearhog said:

If the rate of something happening is zero, then by your logic, would you say the risk is also zero?

Sure, but I never said the risk about anything is zero.  I said the rate is extremely close to one another.  The risk of a mishap is not zero for regionals and is also not zero for the legacies.  However, I would argue the risk over the last 10 years isn’t that far different wrt pilot error causing a mishap (and when I say mishap, I’m referring to something resulting in mass casualties).  How many of us don’t fly on regionals because we know the experience of the crew is most likely less than that of a legacy?

[hindsight2020]

Airline pilots often work under contracts multiple years past their amendable date. Post-amendable periods which often exceeds the contract's original term length in the first place!

Now, I'm no professional mediator, but that level of run the clock offense doesn't strike me (see what I did there? ba dum tsk) as labor being in the driver seat on that one. It's certainly not the behavior of a  management team worried about there being significant staffing pressure to acquiesce to high demands.

Just like the Air Force and their AvB offerings, justice delayed is justice denied. The leading team executes run-the-clock offense, not the trailing team, definitionally.

[HuggyU2]

3 hours ago, HeloDude said:

I guess in the last several years I have yet to hear of a pilot who had more than 1-2 years at a legacy leave to go to another.  

The U-2 community is small, and I can think of three in the past five years that have done so. If I rack my brain, probably a few more. 
The most recent left AA late last year on 4th year pay and came to UAL. 

Odd data point: I had lunch with a guy last year that did 14 years at SWA... took the early retirement at age 61.5... and came to UAL. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by HuggyU2

[HeloDude]

1 minute ago, HuggyU2 said:

The U-2 community is small, and I can think of three in the past five years that have done so. If I rack my brain, probably a few more. 
The most recent left AA late last year on 4th year pay and came to UAL. 

Odd data point: I had lunch with a guy last year that did 14 years at SWA... took the early retirement at age 61.5... and came to UAL. 

Specifically why did the AA guy/gal leave after 4 years and go to UAL?  Was it for domicile reasons?  

[gearhog]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

Sure, but I never said the risk about anything is zero.  I said the rate is extremely close to one another.  The risk of a mishap is not zero for regionals and is also not zero for the legacies.  However, I would argue the risk over the last 10 years isn’t that far different wrt pilot error causing a mishap (and when I say mishap, I’m referring to something resulting in mass casualties).  How many of us don’t fly on regionals because we know the experience of the crew is most likely less than that of a legacy?

Well, if you want to correlate mishap rate with mishap risk, it's doesn't matter if it's zero, or 10 or 90. I don't understand the crux of your argument. You seem to be saying there is no reason to raise wages, and there should be no meaningful difference between major and regional pay scales because experience and competence have not recently resulted in fewer casualties when comparing regionals to majors. While the rates may be similar, you can't reasonably argue that the risk of flying with two seasoned aviators is the same as flying with two dudes (or whatever) not long out of AllATPs. All carriers are required to have aircraft mishap liability insurance, and while the required coverage is less for regionals due to the number of seats, pilot experience requirements are a factor in determining individual airline rates.

There are great pilots in the regionals, and nearly all of my new hire FOs that have come from RJs have been awesome. But there are some that have slipped through the cracks. All it takes is one. While their individual mishap rate may be zero, the risk is most definitely elevated. They wouldn't be sitting over there if there were more people competing for that position. Better contracts would most definitely make make more and better candidates attempt to overcome the barriers to entry into the profession.

I absolutely don't fly on RJs. In at least 10 years, I've never needed to get anywhere bad enough to put myself on a regional carrier. Granted, not just because of pilot experience, but because of the whole experience. And if booking tickets for my fam, not even a consideration.

Edited July 2, 2023 by gearhog

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

Well, if you want to correlate mishap rate with mishap risk, it's doesn't matter if it's zero, or 10 or 90. I don't understand the crux of your argument. You seem to be saying there is no reason to raise wages, and there should be no meaningful difference between major and regional pay scales because experience and competence have not recently resulted in fewer casualties when comparing regionals to majors. While the rates may be similar, you can't reasonably argue that the risk of flying with two seasoned aviators is the same as flying with two dudes (or whatever) not long out of AllATPs. All carriers are required to have aircraft mishap liability insurance, and while the required coverage is less for regionals due to the number of seats, pilot experience requirements are a factor in determining individual airline rates.

There are great pilots in the regionals, and nearly all of my new hire FOs that have come from RJs have been awesome. But there are some that have slipped through the cracks. All it takes is one. While their individual mishap rate may be zero, the risk is most definitely elevated. They wouldn't be sitting over there if there were more people competing for that position. Better contracts would most definitely make make more and better candidates attempt to overcome the barriers to entry into the profession.

I absolutely don't fly on RJs. In at least 10 years, I've never needed to get anywhere bad enough to put myself on a regional carrier. Granted, not just because of pilot experience, but because of the whole experience. And if booking tickets for my fam, not even a consideration.

I’m not sure how I can be much clearer with my argument, but I’ll try…even though you actually kind of summarized it later in your post?  If the mishap rate is nearly the same (if not the same?) for regionals as the legacies over the last 10 years then why pay pilots more on legacies than regionals under the argument of safety?  If your argument is that regionals are much riskier wrt safety, then where are all the mishaps?  As for you never flying on a regional, that’s impressive as many destinations are only served by regionals.  Additionally, if regionals are more dangerous then why would the legacies want to be associated with them?—if an Envoy plane were to God forbid crash tonight, do you think people aren’t going to put any of the blame on AA?  They bought the ticket from AA, not Envoy.

Good discussion btw—I appreciate it.

[brabus]

Logically, the regional guys are generally working harder and accepting more risk in terms of more time spent in demanding phase of flight (e.g. before TOC/after TOD). The WB guy may fly a bigger airplane with more people, but he does 1x takeoff and landing, while some 23 yr old is doing 5x day shuttling around the NE in dogshit WX. So yeah, from a completely singular focus of risk/safety, it is not really logical to pay the regional guy the lowest pay. BUT, I’m not saying it should change! 1) Self interest 2) Need motivation for pilots to want to “fleet up” to the majors 3) If a major crashes, it’s going to be more death and more problems (probably), 4) Shareholders at the majors are probably a bit more demanding of quality/experience of pilot (real or perceived) because they want to avoid #3 (logic or emotion? Doesn’t matter)

Edited July 2, 2023 by brabus

[xaarman]

20 hours ago, HossHarris said:

But it is like that. 
 

at the moment, American, southwest, and FedEx pilots are coming to delta. 
 

is it droves…no. 
is it enough to have empty seats in Indoc classes and letters of resignation that definitely get management attention. … yes. 

I used to be involved with the union side of new hires until last year. The number that get hired at a legacy, then leave for another legacy/FedEx/UPS is statistically irrelevant. For anyone who leaves, another legacy pilot takes their place. The primary driver is domicile (go for first hire, then leave for first choice.)

 

[hindsight2020]

56 minutes ago, xaarman said:

 The primary driver is domicile (go for first hire, then leave for first choice.)

 

 

Heh, that's called Tuesday at AFRC. At a former squadron of mine, we used to apply and get approved for 125% overhires by default, given the rather stipulated condition of our unit being a de facto AD-separating inprocessing center. We scrolled more people with zero intention of sticking around than a fucking MEPS center.

Of course, we make brick with the self-interested (redundant, they are airline pilots 😆) temp help we understood would 1288s in short order, depending on airline hiring per usual. At least leadership was honest about the regional airline condition to our outfit, and that of my full-timer %ss as your neighborhood friendly "regional lifer", of course.

I should change my callsign to RED.... Can't get ya a reco to Delta; on the inside though I can give ya a ride to the BX before they close the Subway early (because Air Force, of course), and TODC that 938 for ya before they wrap your "$5 dollars doesn't buy my undivided attention, Robert" MUTA special BLT.

 

😄 

 

[BashiChuni]

What did I just read lol 

[brabus]

35 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

What did I just read lol 

Hindsight moments before posting on Baseops after finishing a pint of moonshine…

[hindsight2020]

11 hours ago, brabus said:

Hindsight moments before posting on Baseops after finishing a pint of moonshine…

#oOf You know, the real fucked up thing of it is... I'm a stone cold teetotaler. 

Now that you mention it, I should probably take up drinking, prob help me out with that monosyllabic protolanguage y'all trade in. 🍺🍺🍺🍺    

[BashiChuni]

Just now, hindsight2020 said:

#oOf You know, the real fucked up thing of it is... I'm a stone cold teetotaler. 

Now that you mention it, I should probably take up drinking, prob help me out with that monosyllabic protolanguage y'all trade in. 🍺🍺🍺🍺    

 

[SurelySerious]

APA board voted to send AA Tentative Agreement to the pilots for a vote.

[AirGuardianC141747]

Makes sense. Kind of like FedEx. If it’s not an exceptional TA the company wins every time. You sign it now and company gets the reduced rates, benefits or bare minimum gains. If you don’t sign the company remains at current rates and savings so it definitively delays the process longer maybe even 2 years or more. Just a cyclic event nothing new.

[SocialD]

On 7/1/2023 at 3:29 PM, HeloDude said:

Which begs the question:  Why should airline pilots demand crazy pay when management knows they won’t/can’t strike?  It’s not like Delta pilots would have left in droves to go work for other airlines.  And it’s not like Frontier or Spirt pilots are crashing all the time either, yet they’re not making the same pay.

 

Late to the party.  I don't think they're demanding "crazy" pay.  Simply asking to be compensated appropriately based on the current market conditions.  If the company can afford to pay out the ridiculous amount of overtime they need to do just to keep the airline running, they can afford more in the contract.  The same goes for how much they waste on stock buybacks. 

 

 

On 7/1/2023 at 6:37 PM, hindsight2020 said:

Now, I'm no professional mediator, but that level of run the clock offense doesn't strike me (see what I did there? ba dum tsk) as labor being in the driver seat on that one. It's certainly not the behavior of a  management team worried about there being significant staffing pressure to acquiesce to high demands.

 

 

Oh they have power to be in the drivers seat, they just have to be willing to use that power, and I'm not even talking wildcat actions.  But ya, the woefully outdated, and arguably inappropriate application of the RLA on airline pilots, complicates that a bit. 

[ClearedHot]

[Royal]

AAL TA language is out. Some obvious gains in pay and LTD at the cost of ODANs/split duty assignments, QOL items, and electronic notification (among many other things). There's no plan b, unfortunately.

[brabus]

UAL seems to have done a great job…except no tumi bag, so obviously vote that shit down!

[HuggyU2]

Sent to me from a FedEx bud...

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by HuggyU2

[McJay Pilot]

Saw this one floating around…

[DirkDiggler]

3 minutes ago, McJay Pilot said:

Saw this one floating around…

In a way it’s almost impressive, I’m surprised yo-yos are even produced anymore.

[hindsight2020]

fr, bet that thing fetches a pretty penny on ebay

[AirGuardianC141747]

YGTBSM. That’s also looks like one of those light show yo-yo’s, better to distract the operator away from their current environment. What a stick it too you gift!

[nunya]

Y’all have free internal company mail? A system used to send stuff around the country on company iron?