The new airline thread

[Lord Ratner]

8 hours ago, Smokin said:

Thoughts on NB at ~15% vs WB at ~80%?  I'm primarily concerned about QOL, but obviously the pay raise with WB is a nice perk.  I'm considering sitting WB reserve (roughly 2.5hrs from base) as there are virtually no WB flights that leave before noon or after 8pm.  Biggest benefits I see as a NB FO is the ability to basically dictate my schedule.  Biggest benefits to WB is more productive trips which equates to more time home or a relatively predictable reserve schedule, which would increase the attractiveness of sitting reserve at home.

Depends on what you fly as a narrow body fo. If you're just flying pre-constructed trips out of PBS, from what I understand the quality of life is probably going to be better on the wide body side, even with the lowered ability to pick your days and trips. If you use the seniority on the narrow body to pick up broken stuff, either short or long-term turns (depending on your preference) or my specialty, one short flight out, overnight, one flight back, then you can have a pretty easy life.

 

I will probably never go wide body because the idea of sitting in an airplane for 15 hours when I can fly from DFW to OKC and be done for the day just doesn't make it worth a few extra bucks per hour.

 

For reference, I usually fly 320 to 350 hours per year, actual seat time. I probably deadhead another hundred to 150 (often in first class now thanks to the new contract), and get paid somewhere between 1,300 to 1,500 hours, plus the 401k.

Edited June 28 by Lord Ratner

[Springer]

6 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

For reference, I usually fly 320 to 350 hours per year, actual seat time. I probably deadhead another hundred to 150 (often in first class now thanks to the new contract), and get paid somewhere between 1,300 to 1,500 hours, plus the 401k.

Congrats on a great quality of life add! I f*&king hate DH. It's the small sh*t that makes the difference as I went for quality of life over dollars. We had great A320 trips, Japan to Saipan I wanted to fly but had to DH over on the Whale.  Guarantee first class over (per contract >12 hrs) but coming back to US in coach due to tailwinds and always full flights.  Sadly, never did them.

[SocialD]

On 6/27/2024 at 3:50 PM, Smokin said:

Thoughts on NB at ~15% vs WB at ~80%?  I'm primarily concerned about QOL, but obviously the pay raise with WB is a nice perk.  I'm considering sitting WB reserve (roughly 2.5hrs from base) as there are virtually no WB flights that leave before noon or after 8pm.  Biggest benefits I see as a NB FO is the ability to basically dictate my schedule.  Biggest benefits to WB is more productive trips which equates to more time home or a relatively predictable reserve schedule, which would increase the attractiveness of sitting reserve at home.

 

 

Have you drilled down into the more time at home by comparing TAFB?  If your airline allows, I'd check the schedules of people around your seniority at the end of the month to see what they're really doing.  If able, go back an entire year to get the full picture.  If you just want to bid your schedule, fly it and go home, then ya I'd go try WB life for a while.   But at 15%, if you have some flexibility, you generally have lots of options available to increase your QOL/pay/time at home.  This month I worked 12 days with 4 nights away and blocked 32 hours.  My TAFB isn't much more than a single 6-day WB trip I used to fly, not to mention my nights away is far less.  My WB schedule usually was two of those 6-days or on reserve I usually got a 6-day and a 3-day or three or four 3/4-days.  Obviously the longer drive/more frequent trips to the airport would have to be taken into account, but it's something to consider if you don't care for the drive.  15% provides control over your schedule/life that is hard to beat, especially since you'd be so junior on a WB.

[Smokin]

I have and if I just did a fairly standard schedule, I'd be home about 30hrs more on the WB.  Obviously that is just a standard line and ignores the scheduling games I could play to get out of flying that standard line in the NB that I wouldn't have the seniority to play in the WB. 

[Lord Ratner]

7 minutes ago, Smokin said:

I have and if I just did a fairly standard schedule, I'd be home about 30hrs more on the WB.  Obviously that is just a standard line and ignores the scheduling games I could play to get out of flying that standard line in the NB that I wouldn't have the seniority to play in the WB. 

Yes but that really is the Crux of the question. I don't know you so I can't answer, But I have learned in 6 years that it is actually relatively small number of pilots who are willing to play the game to the point where it puts them ahead. As somewhat biased towards that game I can't say that I understand it fully, but I spent a significant amount of my flights explaining the various hustles to captains and at the end of the day they decide that life is simply easier getting a schedule in PBS and flying it, or sitting for reserve and hoping they don't get the call. 

 

Can't really half-ass a hustle. If it requires flexibility, you have to have the family that knows you could miss dinner tonight. If it requires gaming the FAR117 restrictions, then you have to be willing to put in the flight hours to build those conflicts. If it requires holiday flying, weekend flying, or flying long turns that have you going to the airport early in the morning and getting back late at night... You get the idea. If you can commit to a hustle then you will end up with a disproportionate share of a particular airline resource, either pay, time at home, pay per hours worked, whatever. 

 

If you half ass it, you'll just end up incredibly frustrated. So if you're the guy that likes predictability, I suspect that the widebody world will treat you better. If not, then it is almost certain you will benefit more from your seniority on the narrow body.

[Springer]

5 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Can't really half-ass a hustle. If it requires flexibility, you have to have the family that knows you could miss dinner tonight. If it requires gaming the FAR117 restrictions, then you have to be willing to put in the flight hours to build those conflicts. If it requires holiday flying, weekend flying, or flying long turns that have you going to the airport early in the morning and getting back late at night... You get the idea. If you can commit to a hustle then you will end up with a disproportionate share of a particular airline resource, either pay, time at home, pay per hours worked, whatever. 

Well stated.  As I have said before, my brother in-law was the A320 CA king of hustle, ie Green Slips and Rolling Thunder at DAL.  Can't tell you how many times he missed his wife's Thanksgiving dinners and the crap he was willing to put himself through for a high paying trip.  In his last 9 mths (2021) on LTS was pulling in $40K+/mth due to the accumulation effect of the above.  

 

[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, Springer said:

Well stated.  As I have said before, my brother in-law was the A320 CA king of hustle, ie Green Slips and Rolling Thunder at DAL.  Can't tell you how many times he missed his wife's Thanksgiving dinners and the crap he was willing to put himself through for a high paying trip.  In his last 9 mths (2021) on LTS was pulling in $40K+/mth due to the accumulation effect of the above.  

 

Yep. I generally take a middle ground approach, I don't miss important things, but my wife is very good about me being John for the day-to-day dinner and activities type of stuff. I figure I can make an extra 50 to 100 Grand a year if I was willing to fly anything anytime, but I'm simply not.

 

It's too good of a job to fuck up by working that hard.

[SocialD]

15 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Yep. I generally take a middle ground approach, I don't miss important things, but my wife is very good about me being John for the day-to-day dinner and activities type of stuff. I figure I can make an extra 50 to 100 Grand a year if I was willing to fly anything anytime, but I'm simply not.

 

It's too good of a job to fuck up by working that hard.

 

 

After many strategies, I've found that the best method is to simply let her make the decisions.  I only show her shit I'm willing to fly...hey babe, they called me for X, yay or nay?  She works from home during the week, so if it's anything M-F that gets me home before 4 or 5, she doesn't care at all.  I'll fly weekend stuff if it makes sense because it's just another day for us, but I don't miss any events, it's just not worth it.  I am flying the weekend after July 4th because our plans are on the 4th/5th and we're a bit vacationed out from June and our next one in August.  It's also a 3-day for 2x pay and that's all I have on my July schedule lol.  

 

It's worth mentioning that my frau is a powerful income earner, so it takes a big stress off me in executing my plan.  If I have a short month, it's not going to be a big issue for me.  I know some may not be willing to take that risk, but if you're in the check of the month club, it's probably no problem.  That said, I've never come up short unless it's by choice.  

[Duck]

Well stated.  As I have said before, my brother in-law was the A320 CA king of hustle, ie Green Slips and Rolling Thunder at DAL.  Can't tell you how many times he missed his wife's Thanksgiving dinners and the crap he was willing to put himself through for a high paying trip.  In his last 9 mths (2021) on LTS was pulling in $40K+/mth due to the accumulation effect of the above.  
 

That’s chump change at SWA.


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[Standby]

15 minutes ago, Duck said:

That’s chump change at SWA.

Must be the hazardous duty pay they provide. All of those near CFITs, control tower strikes, plus departures from NOTAM’d runways and all…

[Lord Ratner]

7 hours ago, Duck said:

That’s chump change at SWA.


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Springer is from the Jurassic era, so his brother was probably a retired captain before the pay rates were so generous. 

In May I managed to do 52k (60k with the 401k included) as an FO at AA, but that involved flying everyday for three weeks straight and most days on the fourth week. As a Captain at the top of scale that would have been 76k (90k w/401k).

 

I'd die young if I did that with any regularity. 

[SocialD]

10 hours ago, Duck said:

That’s chump change at SWA.


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3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Springer is from the Jurassic era, so his brother was probably a retired captain before the pay rates were so generous. 

In May I managed to do 52k (60k with the 401k included) as an FO at AA, but that involved flying everyday for three weeks straight and most days on the fourth week. As a Captain at the top of scale that would have been 76k (90k w/401k).

 

I'd die young if I did that with any regularity. 

 

 

I'm not sure what he means by LTS, but if he means long term sick/disability (LTD), then $40k/month is certainly not chump change.  Our LTD is 50% of your highest 12 months in the last 36 months (plus double 401k contributions, so right now it would be 35% 401k on that 50% sick pay...essentially paying you 401k as if you weren't sick).  That would mean he'd have averaged $80k/month for a 12 months stretch, which seems a bit high because that would be $960k/yr.  If he's counting 401k contributions in that money, then it would be an average of ~$69k/month, which during that time, may have happened.  We had some big earners in around that time, though I think it was a bit later.  I think that's when we had a 330 Captain credit north of 500-600 hours in a single month.  

Edited July 2 by SocialD

[AirGuardianC141747]

Everything is cyclic, can’t count on anything but the “guarantee” and even that isn’t “guaranteed” by any means whenever a black swan event occurs. Some kill it and others fear the job will be killed off and sometimes it does go flat line - oddly enough it can happen at the same time being pax or cargo high and lows. Those anomalies aren’t controlled by any of us, but one can capitalize on such events being at the right place at the right time.

That being said, having a job then seniority is everything! The previous data points mentioned are awesome regarding the hustle and it seems in recent times FOs in greater numbers have finally started to figure out the lucrative initiatives they can capitalize on while keeping their lives very comfortable schedule wise. I myself maintain super senior FO and never miss any holidays or important events my wife and I enjoy. Somewhat different at some outfits and everyone’s priorities are different. Some enjoy specific day/night flying, domestic/international, weekends off or not, short runs, longer runs for extended time off, etc. Pay is the predominant priority followed by high pay least amount of work which is desirable. 
 

As a crew force we need to understand what drives us individually and know what serves one doesn’t fit the other. When most start out they aren’t high earners so the chase for cash rides high and as time moves forward for the majority. Cash flows increase and your work life still burns, but hopefully seniority increases giving you more flexibility to create a better and better schedule opportunity. 
 

Good example of right time right place or wrong place is within the cargo industry currently. Overstaffed Purple with new impact management, UPS hiring for USPS contract good movement for a short period perhaps and Atlas driving away from low profit margin cargo and realignment to the higher profit large cargo aircraft focus. 
 

As a senior FO at Atlas I am fortunate (which is a guess by the numbers) to maintain my current lifestyle with little or no impacts which honestly remains to be seen from the actual fallout vs projected musical chairs. Unfortunately there will be those newish Capts falling back to the right seat, crews pushed out the bottom of their bases to less desirable bases and worst of all having lived in a disappearing base where they chose to reside for that lifestyle. Some will sit in current positions maintaining current pay while others will receive increases as well while they sit thru the transition. Definitely a Yes vote from me = All in all it’s a good move to keep folks off the street or at least give them a breather to end up where they intended to be initially. 
 

Even if I had moved to left seat in 2016 this really would not have impacted me that much regarding seniority. Regardless of this current event and I was a Capt from 2016 I couldn’t get near the schedules, high paying lines and overtime if I so choose. I can match or exceed at times equivalent Capts with no heartache currently. During the viral debacle I could chase the extremely lucrative lines right down to the last areas of 175% payouts when they dwindled away while Capts within my same year group earned quite a bit less picking up the low hanging fruit. Senior Capts made out like bandits during that anamoly . Seniority is key! No lie there were just a few tuff days every few months BUT - Something to be said about if your work doesn’t feel like work you will never have to work another day in your life. It’s your life and if you’re happy stay put and do your thing!

Edited July 3 by AirGuardianC141747

[illusive]

On 6/22/2024 at 7:30 AM, SocialD said:

 

 

Hearing rumbles Delta is stopping classes for a while as well.   It was bound to happen sooner or later.  We have something like 20% more pilots than we did before rona, with close to the same flying hours.  Couple that with the Boeing fiasco and Bus engine issues, it makes sense.  You don't need pilots for planes you don't have, or can't fly.  With ~500 retirements/yr, that will help mitigate any furloughs.  Furlough is extremely expensive in both money and training turmoil.   I'm not saying it's not the start of something bigger, but I don't think it's time to pull the fire alarm yet.  I remember circa 2016ish, when we stopped classes for a short while, the guys came out of the woodwork to scream fire.  I guess eventually they'll be right.  

 

That said, I flew with a FO recently who left AD a few months ago with no Guard gig.  While I certainly respect the clean break, I cautioned him at being a recent hire with few backup plans.  Plenty of AOC gigs out there that require little commitment, but provides a nice insurance policy.  I didn't feel comfortable leaving until I was ~60% on the list.  It turned out that I was much better than that, but I certainly wouldn't want to he sub-75% without a backup plan.  

Are those AOC gigs open even if you are passed over once or twice assuming no UIFs?

[AirGuardianC141747]

Been many moons since I retired out of an AOC. Probably more opportunities at lower levels. I only say this because I refused to do war college despite sitting in an O-6 position for nearly a year and had an opportunity to transfer from Higher HQ Staff to an AOC with an O-5 position. There were no O-6 positions to just slide into and it makes sense to promote from within. After a year they wanted me to once again do war college for the O-6 opportunity. Humbly let them know thank you, but more than happy to run out my career as King maker or buffer for our folks. One of the best gigs I ever had and blessed to have retired on the ANG side via the active duty taps process or whatever that was. Definitely would have missed a lot of information having been at a remote Guard unit. Apparently I do need a seeing eye dog during that process of drift down soft landing.

[FourFans]

13 hours ago, illusive said:

Are those AOC gigs open even if you are passed over once or twice assuming no UIFs?

My data is about 3 years dated, but yes.  AOC spots tends to be difficult to fill.  Even in the AOC 101 intro briefing at the 505th, the school commander admits that no one wants to work in the AOC.

[SocialD]

13 hours ago, illusive said:

Are those AOC gigs open even if you are passed over once or twice assuming no UIFs?

 

Unknown, just fly with lots of FOs who are doing it and tall about how there are always open spots.  

[SurelySerious]

no pilots want to work in the AOC.

FIFY, although to be fair overall manning at AOCs tends to be 40%. More non pilots than not make up who is there for sure.

[FourFans]

3 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

More non pilots than not make up who is there for sure.

...which explains the excellence of the aviation planning coming out of the AOCs...

[SurelySerious]

...which explains the excellence of the aviation planning coming out of the AOCs...

It has been eye opening to see how much the lack of pilots on staff affects strategic to operational planning and decision making. As a younger dude you think it’s just the guys flying tactically leaving AD and TFI that might lose the war…

I scoffed the 13O program when it was started, but some of those dudes are saving AOCs right now since they know the process so well, but it still takes some corporate air force aviation knowledge -if you will- to steer them.

We killed that program, though, so now there really are no AD volunteers.

[brabus]

All staff is fucked - there are not enough people who are smart, critical thinkers, and not pussies, who will go work on staff. The bureaucrat swamp does not take kindly to people with the above qualities. 

[AC&W]

10 hours ago, FourFans said:

...which explains the excellence of the aviation planning coming out of the AOCs...

Speaking for the MAF...as long as MAF pilots expect centralised flight management, but are unwilling to staff flight management duties with pilots, or unwilling to direct flight management standards, then continue to expect current excellence in planning products.

Centralised flight management makes sense for inter theater assets/missions, less so for intra theater missions.

AFGSC is worse than the MAF, but current GEO & Functional CCMDs nuances don't always play well with each other. 

[Burn-E]

On 5/24/2024 at 4:57 PM, Champ Kind said:

United just expanded their military pilot program (UMPP) eligibility to include AGR:

"To be eligible to participate in UMPP, all Candidates must satisfy the following requirements:  

...currently serving as a full-time Active-Duty member of the Armed Forces of the United States, including active reserves currently serving as TAR, FTS, or AGR"

https://careers.united.com/us/en/united-military-pilot-program

Has anyone applied for this program serving in the Guard on ADOS orders? Though I'm not technically AGR, I typically have orders 6+ months cut at a time. This is mainly due to there not being an AGR job available. That being said, an AGR job is becoming available soon, but I would rather not take it if my plan would be to resign it within 6 months. 

 

I ask this because I'm sitting at ~1440 hours with a R-ATP. In my fighter unit, that's about 6 months away from 1500. I would like to start the CJO process now if they would accept me a) on ADOS and not AGR and b) less than min requirement. 

 

Thanks! 

[HeloDude]

7 minutes ago, Burn-E said:

Has anyone applied for this program serving in the Guard on ADOS orders? Though I'm not technically AGR, I typically have orders 6+ months cut at a time. This is mainly due to there not being an AGR job available. That being said, an AGR job is becoming available soon, but I would rather not take it if my plan would be to resign it within 6 months. 

 

I ask this because I'm sitting at ~1440 hours with a R-ATP. In my fighter unit, that's about 6 months away from 1500. I would like to start the CJO process now if they would accept me a) on ADOS and not AGR and b) less than min requirement. 

 

Thanks! 

If you only need about 60 hours to an unrestricted ATP, why not just go spend the money and get them?—I get that it could cost you around $10K, but that’s a drop in the bucket when you factor in getting seniority sooner.  Also, do you have your CTP yet?—I think you might be able to apply some/all of those(?) sim hours towards your total time.

[Burn-E]

8 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

If you only need about 60 hours to an unrestricted ATP, why not just go spend the money and get them?—I get that it could cost you around $10K, but that’s a drop in the bucket when you factor in getting seniority sooner.  Also, do you have your CTP yet?—I think you might be able to apply some/all of those(?) sim hours towards your total time.

Yeah I have the CTP complete and the 1440 includes those sims. I'm aware the GA hours is worth the money to speed along this process and probably my best bet. My hope was there was a scenario I could begin the App/Hogan/Interview/CJO process now through the UMPP instead of the traditional FO route, which is generally taking several months anyways from what I'm reading and save money.