The new airline thread

[HuggyU2]

UAL still has about 75 non-members that crossed the picket line in the CAL strike, and around 7 that crossed the UAL picket line in '85. 
 

The last one retires in 2028. 
 

The rest of the 14,000 pilots are ALPA members. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by HuggyU2

[slc]

16 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

UAL still has about 75 non-members that crossed the picket line in the CAL strike, and around 7 that crossed the UAL picket line in '85. 
 

The last one retires in 2028. 
 

The rest of the 14,000 pilots are ALPA members. 

Good lord, I thought they were "mostly" gone.  Didn't know we had that many currently

[HuggyU2]

It is likely a bit less than that since some certainly retired early or died since "the list" was published. 

[Danger41]

With that much union participation, has the union given direction to not take premium lines?

[HuggyU2]

Danger, they cannot do that. It is illegal and will be used against them if it goes to court. 

[Prozac]

1 hour ago, Danger41 said:

With that much union participation, has the union given direction to not take premium lines?

PSA to anyone looking to make the jump to the airlines: get smart on the RLA (Railway Labor Act — yes, it applies to airlines) and airline unions ASAP. It’ll hopefully save you some confusion & it will help your newfound union brothers & sisters immensely if you don’t have to be schooled on every little thing. 

[BashiChuni]

getting smart on the RLA for a dude not even hired yet is step 69

don't waste your time. get the job first. no one is schooling anyone on the rla. hell even the guys that have been there for decades don't have a total grasp on it.

Edited November 8, 2022 by BashiChuni

[Prozac]

5 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

getting smart on the RLA for a dude not even hired yet is step 69

don't waste your time. get the job first. no one is schooling anyone on the rla. hell even the guys that have been there for decades don't have a total grasp on it.

Or don’t & be the guy who raises his hand at the union new hire dinner & asks why he should have to join the union. Then watch everyone at the table look at you like you just kicked their dog. Up to you.
 

Sorry Bashi, but I contend that understanding the nature of the labor environment one is stepping into (especially coming from the military, where people are generally clueless about organized labor) is an important step in determining whether this is the right career move. 

[FourFans]

3 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Or don’t & be the guy who raises his hand at the union new hire dinner & asks why he should have to join the union. Then watch everyone at the table look at you like you just kicked their dog. Up to you.
 

Sorry Bashi, but I contend that understanding the nature of the labor environment one is stepping into (especially coming from the military, where people are generally clueless about organized labor) is an important step in determining whether this is the right career move. 

I'm with Prozac on this one.  'Analyze the situation' comes before 'take appropriate action'.  Understanding the foundations of the environment you are about to jump into is incredibly helpful.  Just like you wouldn't interview with a company without reading up on that company, don't join a union without understanding why it's there.  It's definitely not step one, but it's definitely step beforeyoushowupatyournewhireclass.  That's coming from someone who didn't do that homework and had to learn the hard way.

Edited November 8, 2022 by FourFans130

[BashiChuni]

totally disagree with both of you.

if guys want to go to the airlines understanding the union and RLA is by far the lowest priority

[Danger41]

This is very informative. If they’re not allowed to give that kind of direction, where is the line of what a union can direct? Lanyard color?

[Hugo Stiglitz]

6 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

This is very informative. If they’re not allowed to give that kind of direction, where is the line of what a union can direct? Lanyard color?

Lanyards don’t affect the bottom line. Unions can’t be perceived to be encouraging any actions that modify how people perform their jobs (and negatively impact revenue). Fewer pickups than historical averages, more sick/fatigue calls, anything that the company can point to and claim is an organized action in violation of status quo can trigger a lawsuit and possibly hurt the union during mediation. There’s a rich history of them making such claims right or wrong, and sniping random social media posts from union members running their mouths as “evidence” is a relatively new tactic. Notably “informational pickets” don’t fall under job actions because they’re conducted off duty.

And Bashi, while yes, your premise that there is a lot to focus on before joining an airline is true, awareness of the union dynamics shouldn’t be too far on the back burner at least. Mil guys already have a rep for not being team players because of their cluelessness, no need to unnecessarily add to it. 

[Prozac]

17 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

This is very informative. If they’re not allowed to give that kind of direction, where is the line of what a union can direct? Lanyard color?

This is why it’s helpful to have at least a working knowledge of the RLA. Abridged version: Airline contracts don’t expire, they become amendable at the end of the agreed term. The previous contract is still binding for as long as it takes to hash out the next one. If either party feels the process has stalled, they can ask for arbitration provided by the National Mediation Board. If this step fails, the union can apply for “self help” (I.e. job actions/strike). There is then a cooling off period (90 days I believe) before the union is “released”. If congress believes the strike will negatively impact commerce, they can intervene & end the strike (I believe the last major airline strike in the US lasted a day). This is completely different from other unionized professions who are free to act as soon as their current contract expires & is massively skewed to favor the management side of things.
 

That was all off the cuff….airline vets feel free to correct or clarify any holes in my post. 

[WheelsOff]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

Or don’t & be the guy who raises his hand at the union new hire dinner & asks why he should have to join the union. Then watch everyone at the table look at you like you just kicked their dog. Up to you.
 

Like the SA of a brand new LT on day 1 of UPT. Lol. Willing to say at what airline was this? 

[BashiChuni]

Would ANY military guy wanting to go airlines…study the RLA before getting hired…. And go “yeah fuck that fuck the Airines this RLA is bullshit!” No.

I picked up a ton of info during indoc and sims  no need to waste time or brain bytes before getting a CJO.

I can’t believe this is an argument. Or why I even care. Fml. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by BashiChuni

[JBueno]

Bashi, no, it wouldn’t change their course but may help give them some general awareness and SA. Kinda like most of us did when we joined Big Blue.

Getting smart on how the airline (or any) business works in general is a good idea for anyone separating. Finance, investors, 8K’s, contracts, the DOT, emerging markets, labor unions, whatever. 

If you go to the airlines, there are ground rules for how your work and pay rules are negotiated. It’s not as simple as Scott Boras hashing it out over a few days. Having some familiarity and SA at the union dinner wouldn’t hurt.

Edited November 8, 2022 by JBueno

[BashiChuni]

Sure all of the above is true AFTER you get the CJO. 
 

proof is in the pudding…there are numerous interview and resume prep companies. I bet there isn’t one “Intro to Union/RLA prep course”

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by BashiChuni

[HuggyU2]

I don't know how it is done in other communities, but where I come from, we have a chat group where all of us that are either IN the airlines or are TRYING to get into the airlines go to ask questions and get mentored.  We all know each other at some level, unlike a generic internet forum.  

Being a UAL pilot, all of the U-2 Drivers working at UAL are on our own separate Signal chat group where we ask questions, and help out the new UAL pilots just arriving.  We have a guy who knows the contract inside and out, and offers all sorts of advice on these matters.  We have guys on widebodies that can speak to that.  We have WB and NB captains that can speak to that.  

If your community doesn't do this, you should consider it.  The amount of information exchanged weekly is incredible.  And the ability to go to a group of trusted agents to ask questions in confidence about unions, scheduling, probation, sick leave, commuting, vacations, the RLA, asshole captains, etc... is invaluable.  

I'm sure most of y'all are doing something similar.  But then I read posts here from people that work in flying squadrons but have zero understanding of the basics of airline employment... and it has me wondering how they can be around all of these folks heading to the airlines and not know the answers to what they are asking.  

There are a ton of folks you probably know that have the answers to many of your questions.  Organize your community.  

Edited November 8, 2022 by HuggyU2

[Stoker]

The RLA is way less relevant to a new hire than the ins and outs of the contract. From the outside, it's easy to know what the hourly rate is, but really hard to actually get that that number is just a multiplier and the contract will determine how many times a month you hit that multiplier.

[Doc]

Union 101 for new hires:

1.  The #1 priority of the union is to protect the union (protection of the members is somewhere near priority #69)

2.  The #1 priority of the Prez/Vice-Prez/ST/BoD/MEC/LEC/etc is to enrich themselves; you are an afterthought

Lesson complete.  You now know 90% of union knowledge required for a 20-30 yr career. 

Only kidding a little 🤮

You're welcome! 😎

 

 

 

[brabus]

Deciding if you want the industry, talk to bros currently doing it and get multiple perspectives. The best learning on company stuff, contract, schedule/QOL/pay management, etc. is in cruise or a few beers deep at the bar. But, learn the RLA before getting hired? GTFO.

Edited November 8, 2022 by brabus

[BFM this]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

Union 101 for new hires:

1.  The #1 priority of the union is to protect the union (protection of the members is somewhere near priority #69)

2.  The #1 priority of the Prez/Vice-Prez/ST/BoD/MEC/LEC/etc is to enrich themselves; you are an afterthought

Lesson complete.  You now know 90% of union knowledge required for a 20-30 yr career. 

Only kidding a little 🤮

You're welcome! 😎

All true, but you're mis-labeling APA as a union.  There's always someone right around the corner ready to remind us that it's an "Association".  Usually an APA lawyer, but I digress...

[LJ Driver]

6 hours ago, brabus said:

Deciding if you want the industry, talk to bros currently doing it and get multiple perspectives. The best learning on company stuff, contract, schedule/QOL/pay management, etc. is in cruise or a few beers deep at the bar. But, learn the RLA before getting hired? GTFO.

Hahahaha, incredibly true.

I’m not smart, but getting “up to speed” on the contract, union, and subsequently the RLA took the most backest of back seats when I was getting apps in order and prepping for interviews. And when it was time, it wasn’t difficult to figure out. That info flows after you start flying the line, there is NO reason to learn it before you start at any airline. 

[FourFans]

10 hours ago, brabus said:

Deciding if you want the industry, talk to bros currently doing it and get multiple perspectives. The best learning on company stuff, contract, schedule/QOL/pay management, etc. is in cruise or a few beers deep at the bar. But, learn the RLA before getting hired? GTFO.

I think you're mis-hearing it.  After you get hired, but before you show up, it's a good idea to actually know what the RLA is and generally what it does.  Showing up to training completely ignorant is not an excuse.

Edited November 9, 2022 by FourFans130

[brabus]

Zero impact for not knowing a single bit of the RLA when I started flying the line. This is like arguing B-Course studs should have a working knowledge of the NDS prior to TR-1. But the great part is this is all subjective and people can feel free to study whatever they want. I’m sure the sim IPs will be impressed with your RLA knowledge after your multiple failed attempts at V1 cuts. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by brabus