The new airline thread

[FourFans]

4 hours ago, brabus said:

I’m sure the sim IPs will be impressed with your RLA knowledge after your multiple failed attempts at V1 cuts. 

On 11/7/2022 at 6:20 PM, FourFans130 said:

...that's coming from someone who didn't do that homework and had to learn the hard way.

Nailed it.  Good work.  No problems with V1 cuts, thanks anyway.  For future reference: Herc dudes do a lot of V1 cut work.  It's kind of a thing for us...but I digress.

I worked at brand Y first and my RLA indoc was brutal and a steep curve.  Our union actually had 5 different unions inside it.  It was a warzone.  I would have been better served at least knowing what the hell a union is, which I didn't, before I showed up to ride that trainwreck.  For reference, I would more appropriately equate it to a stud showing up at the B-course not knowing what BFM stands for.   All the 121 trained guys knew what was going on, whereas we mil dudes were clueless.

Should guys care about it before getting hired?  No.  Absolutely not.

After they get hired?  Definitely worth a shallow dive into what union relations are like at your new company.  The deep dive is for the long haul flights with salty captains though.

I'd never expect an ex-mil new hire to be an expert on the RLA.  That would be useless, and time is much better spent focused elsewhere.  However, I'm sure your indoc class instructor were really impressed with your knowledge of V1 cut dynamics as they asked you if you wanted to join the union, or perhaps take that nice management job.  In some companies this is a bigger deal than others, but regardless, I would have been blindly ignorant if offered the choice at my first event.  

Purportedly the guys with the most mechanical and CRM problems transitioning to heavy jets, according the the sim IPs at brand X and Y and my own firsthand experience, are dudes arriving straight from a pointy nose single seat...and they invariably clean that up the mechanics portion in a couple rides.  Some never clean up the CRM problems.  In contrast, stepping on the union crank during indoc can easily have career long impacts.  Just sayin'

BL: Mil-airline transition duds should actively seek a basic awareness of the minefield that is union/management at their new company so they don't shoot themselves in the foot on day one.  "Flying the Line" is an easy read in that direction.

TLDR: Hey Mil guys going to the airlines, there's a landmine called union/management relationships.  Don't piss off the union.

Edited November 9, 2022 by FourFans130

[brabus]

6 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

No problems with V1 cuts, thanks anyway.  For future reference: Herc dudes do a lot of V1 cut

Sorry man, that was a generic “your,” not an actual comment on FourFans’ v1 cut performance. But I see how it came off that way. My bad. 
 

“Don’t piss off the union” - absolutely, and that’s common sense. Airlines are a union job, so regardless of one’s opinions on unions in general, just accept you’re going to be part of one and ask your indoc bros (who came from another 121 job) questions about all the things you don’t understand. All of this can easily be accomplished without delving into RLA-specific knowledge. And if someone actually steps on their dick in indoc with the union (never once have heard of that), then they’re one of those ultra low SA types who were going to make life hard for themselves regardless. 

[BashiChuni]

40 minutes ago, brabus said:

And if someone actually steps on their dick in indoc with the union (never once have heard of that), then they’re one of those ultra low SA types who were going to make life hard for themselves regardless. 

so true haha. there's always THAT guy and he's usually pretty easy to spot....in the military and airlines.

[LJ Driver]

This sub-topic is asinine.

You’ll probably be in a union as an airline guy, good advice not to piss them off I guess but it would be a magic trick to actually do that. Everyone already knows mil guys know zero about union stuff, don’t give a s**t, and unless you’re a total douche will teach you what’s needed.

At no point should you “get familiar” with the RLA before getting there or even deliberately at any point. TBH, knowing that you can’t strike until you’re released to do so pretty much sums up the most important part of the whole thing anyway… you’re welcome, you just “got familiar” with the RLA.

[disgruntledemployee]

I'd offer that the biggest item to know going in wrt the RLA is perceived job actions and social media.  Someone joining now, where most majors are in negotiations, and a newb goes keyboard Rambo because negotiations cause heated emotions, could result in said newb getting the heave ho and turned into an example by mgmt. 

A. Year 1.  STFU except for asking questions and gaining GK/insight.  Understand what a job action is and why its bad.

B. Be very cautious with forums/FB.  Trolls be living there too and love to bait.  Some go straight to HR with their complaints.

C. Those unfortunate to get lined up in mgmt crosshairs for online behavior, the Union rep will be standing there right beside you. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Very good point on the evil that may lie in wait and entrap you. Very appropriate as post 666.

[Springer]

On 11/9/2022 at 7:27 AM, brabus said:

“Don’t piss off the union” - absolutely, and that’s common sense. Airlines are a union job, so regardless of one’s opinions on unions in general, just accept you’re going to be part of one..... 

In another life I and 569 others were hired to cross a picket line.  None did and the union rewarded us with a decent check even though we were not yet members.   Once the strike settled the company offered the 570 jobs.

Stand behind the union and it will take care of you.

 

[viperdriver1313]

 

love it !

Edited November 16, 2022 by viperdriver1313

[brabus]

Probably should copy that to the bonus thread, just in case someone is still considering shooting themselves in the foot.

[BashiChuni]

that's a total game changer for anyone on the fence and a smart move by delta

Edited November 16, 2022 by BashiChuni

[Homestar]

It's a great idea to lock in military pilots.

Just wish they'd take a look at my app.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Genius move and a win/win…takes out some of the apprehension for those who have FOMO about getting into the industry ASAP, and ensures a continued steady flow for the next few years while all the rest of us race to the bottom in terms of experience. Actually I’m jealous. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Delta’s no dummy. Secure some talent well prior to other outfits having an opportunity. It may provide some greater loyalty in its own form of rewards program to the hired soon to be retired or a backup to those who may have other plans of action for which they intend to pursue at a later date to test the waters closer to retirement. Land another opportunity towards the end so be it; otherwise, if nothing arises heck it’s Delta top notch! Very clever move as we’ve seen folks depart the fix prior to or in training whether hired at the Majors, FedEx/UPS, Southwest, etc. when the  career destination of choice came knocking.

Edited November 17, 2022 by AirGuardianC141747

[SocialD]

Nice gesture and not a bad idea, given that it really costs them nothing.  Now if they would give them a seniority number...game changer!

[di1630]

Nice gesture and not a bad idea, given that it really costs them nothing.  Now if they would give them a seniority number...game changer!

American was rumored to be in the process of doing that.

[WheelsOff]

9 hours ago, di1630 said:

American was rumored to be in the process of doing that.

Would definitely be a game changer, but the unions will never allow something like this. 

[Smokin]

I've always thought that some airlines (Delta) spend a fair amount of time fighting USERRA when they could use it to their advantage.  If I were the chief of hiring, I'd actively recruit military pilots that are within a few years of separating (retirement or not) and get them to apply.  Have them do indoc on regular leave, then drop mil leave when it is over.  Sure it costs the company some money, but it would guarantee a predictable hire date and high quality pilot in a couple years.  Would be rare for that pilot to then go somewhere else if he already has a couple years seniority.

Really, they should have done this 3-5 years ago, then they would have a group of pilots they could count on since they knew they would need a hiring wave now.  And those pilots would have burned much or all of their USERRA time already, which would make them even more predictable, as in they won't get through consolidation and then drop orders.

[AirGuardianC141747]

No Doubt other competitors will follow suit or their stupid. Never seen before opportunities within the aviation industry whether your military trained or otherwise as all minimums, requirements and other hurdles have dropped or disappeared. Back in the day you were lucky to get a call from your five career paths of choice and you went with the first that called. Have never seen a time where a pilot can choose a location/domicile first and then the airline that supports it as well as having received three calls within a couple of months or weeks. Crazy times, best of times and hopefully the economy maintains this 2nd hiring wave within a decade. Seeing some rumblings within the cargo sector and we will have a better vision after peak/1st or 2nd Qtr 2023. Easiest time to be hired in known history and may it continue. Keep data mining and choose wisely regarding your priorities and family needs!

Edited November 18, 2022 by AirGuardianC141747

[Homestar]

46 minutes ago, Smokin said:

Have them do indoc on regular leave,

Doesn't outside employment require Sq/CC approval?

[tac airlifter]

1 hour ago, Homestar said:

Doesn't outside employment require Sq/CC approval?

Only if you ask.

[SocialD]

12 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

Would definitely be a game changer, but the unions will never allow something like this. 

 

 

The union won't have a say if the company hires them, especially if they put them through an indoc class.  With what's been going on lately, I wouldn't be surprised if they made up some "short course" indoc for these types of hires.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Smokin said:

I've always thought that some airlines (Delta) spend a fair amount of time fighting USERRA when they could use it to their advantage.

 

 

I know we (DAL) had a few dudes who spoke at indoc, in which I witnesses (dude was moved out of that job due to his antics) and a particular CPO...mostly words.  In practice, in my 9th year at Delta, I've honestly felt little hate and I've gone on every deployment/TDY, many of which were over the Christmas holiday season.  If someone mentions it, drill down a bit and find out what caused it...frankly, some of the things guys have done, I'm shocked they were surprised they got asked for proof of their MLOA.  You want to see some mloa hate, ask your FDX bros about taking MLOA during peak (well not this year...apparently they're having a slow down).  

 

 

10 hours ago, Smokin said:

Really, they should have done this 3-5 years ago, then they would have a group of pilots they could count on since they knew they would need a hiring wave now.  And those pilots would have burned much or all of their USERRA time already, which would make them even more predictable, as in they won't get through consolidation and then drop orders.

 

 

Shack!  

 

 

8 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Only if you ask.

 

 

The leave reg actually states that "all members should have the opportunity to take at least one leave period of 14 days of consecutive days or more every fiscal year..."  Take it during this time and I can't see a SQ/CC disapproving "other work."  Now getting two weeks of leave approved may be another story.  Throw the reg in their face lol.  If they're a hater, then post their name to ensure they're blackballed at every airline we can.  

 

[TheNewGazmo]

American was rumored to be in the process of doing that.

American has been doing this for years. It just wasn't as publicly official as Delta's announcement. When I got hired at AAL in 2018, there were guys hired in my group that were 6-8 months out from retiring.

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[Danger41]

For a point of reference, I got an email from Delta this morning with my availability 10.5 months in the future.

[AirGuardianC141747]

12 hours ago, SocialD said:

Now getting two weeks of leave approved may be another story.  Throw the reg in their face lol.  If they're a hater, then post their name to ensure they're blackballed at every airline we can.  

 

Just know there are plenty of haters out there and SocialD is correct to spread the word. Granted, there are those above who will never make the move over so it won’t mean anything, but it does decrease options. These are the self-righteous who oppress those below. Had one in our squadron and as I live and breath he was originally with NWA now Delta an airline pilot for decades. Imagine that, like crabs in a bucket how sad. 

[Runr6730]

With the airlines starting to pull out all the stops to hire retiring/separating military pilots, does anyone know if there’s talk of waiving or making a military competency exam (like they do for the commercial certificate) for an ATP certificate?