The new airline thread

[Sua Sponte]

5 hours ago, Homestar said:

I’m interested to know how the model (the hub-and-spoke model vs point-to-point model) impacts the ability to recover from a system disruption. Has anyone researched this?

Hub-and-Spoke can centralize a schedule disruption at a hub (e.g., DEN for UAL) by re-routing to other hubs (ORD, IAH, etc.). The point-to-point model has a much harder time recovering from a mass disruption (e.g., aircraft going DEN - MDW - PHL - BOS is cancelled at DEN, which then dominos cancels the remainder of the points). The cancellations using point-to-point isn't normally a big deal until you have a massive weather system, fueling issues at DEN, now causing hundreds of cancellations and SWA's antiquated scheduling software that can't keep up the demand.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Sua Sponte

[Hugo Stiglitz]

1 hour ago, Sua Sponte said:

The point-to-point model has a much harder time recovering from a mass disruption

Would also add that point to point is affected less by disruptions when frequency of flights between city pairs is high enough that cancellations can flow to later in the day or different connecting airports. When the pandemic recovery began SWA gambled on adding new cities rather than restoring frequency between existing ones. The new COO has talked openly that the goal for next 2 years is now rebuilding frequency, but in the meantime the airline is vulnerable to meltdowns. Well we F’d around and are now finding out…

[AirGuardianC141747]

I am too lazy to fly SWA. Company tried to book them and I mentioned it’s not them it’s me. Too dang lazy to lock in a seat with the early bird theme. Need to have things set ahead of time as a lackadaisical commuter… Might be the biggest debacle, but definitely hasn’t been the first as of late. Maybe the die hards will send a message, your system gets updated and you get a contract you deserve for dealing with managements failures and the public as a whole. Hopefully it works things out for SWAPA.

[skibum]

[hindsight2020]

I used to think JA (or equivalent terminology) was only an FFD carrier dynamic. Do all airlines effectively have JA work provisions? Kinda smears the glitter off the airline humblebrag about days off....

Edited December 28, 2022 by hindsight2020

[nunya]

44 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

I used to think JA (or equivalent terminology) was only an FFD carrier dynamic. Do all airlines effectively have JA work provisions? Kinda smears the glitter off the airline humblebrag about days off....

All the airlines I'm familiar with have something like this. While there are certainly stories of off-days being ruined by a gate agent handing you a junior/inverse/whatever assignment, the dirty secret is that it's often voluntary and pays up to double.

 

At my airline, it used to be they call and if you answer, it’s yours.  So don’t answer.  Now they call and a recording says call us back if you want it. Not exactly the way I was tagged via email involuntarily for Afghanistan.

Edited December 28, 2022 by nunya

[HossHarris]

Additional flying is always optional at delta 

[AirGuardianC141747]

Any flying seems optional at SWA. Too soon?

[Prozac]

7 hours ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

Any flying seems optional at SWA. Too soon?

Nope. Here’s another:

What’s the difference between Covid & SWA?

Covid is airborne. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

18 hours ago, Prozac said:

Nope. Here’s another:

What’s the difference between Covid & SWA?

Covid is airborne. 

Good one. I heard it as Why is Covid better than SWA? Same answer… maybe this was too soon using “better” or just not acceptable overall. Your way much better in certain company or just better. Thx.

[SocialD]

To the SWA meltdown, we all get our turn in the barrel...this week was SWA's turn.  I hope they're back on their feet soon.

 

On 12/28/2022 at 2:21 PM, hindsight2020 said:

I used to think JA (or equivalent terminology) was only an FFD carrier dynamic. Do all airlines effectively have JA work provisions? Kinda smears the glitter off the airline humblebrag about days off....

 

Yes, at DAL, you could walk off the plane and be met by a "company representative," and handed a trip that starts the next day.  The main ways out of the trip are to be sick, have child care issues or not be rested.  Now if something like that happened to me, I'd probably be sick to my stomach lol.  That said, that hasn't happened in the near decade I've been here, not even during some pretty epic meltdowns.  

 

To your last point.  This year, I averaged 8-9 days worked and 3 nights away per month while averaging ~100 hours/month of pay.  I recently went on activation orders and now I'm working twice as much, while making 50% of what I was making (I'm a 21 year O-5)...that's some smeared glitter lol.  

Edited December 30, 2022 by SocialD

[BashiChuni]

On 12/28/2022 at 1:21 PM, hindsight2020 said:

I used to think JA (or equivalent terminology) was only an FFD carrier dynamic. Do all airlines effectively have JA work provisions? Kinda smears the glitter off the airline humblebrag about days off....

yeah you shouldn't consider it the career totally sucks i wish i was still on AD getting treated well

[AirGuardianC141747]

Not all “airlines” are created equal whether it’s pay/soft pay, retirement, vacation, sick leave, medical, insurance, schedules, scheduling practices, training, bases, commutable or not easily commutable, equipment, first year pay or even indoc/probation practices whatever the differences may be to include unions. Some fit better than others and work you harder as well. Finding “work” that doesn’t feel like work and makes your priorities happen is fantastic although rarely attainable. All outfits have fleas and each can be argued better than the other by the beholder. Even the military is situation dependent.

*Can’t say I have slept away from my bed 3 nights a month on avg, more like 12-15 nights avg for 9 maybe 10 months as I take 2-3 months off annually split up. Don’t live in base (live where we want) and that wouldn’t be helpful with our outfit unless it were ANC. Definitely enjoy 11-21 days off between trips never thinking about so called “work” while at home like I did while serving. I could work less but apparently I can be bought while it lasts. Rarely cookie cutter city hopping ground hog days if ever. Normally a one to two hop to a great hotel, restaurant, country, tour, etc. (barring the viral lock downs). Schedule changes Yup, but no one chasing us down or slipping notes under our doors or even using hotel staff for notifications (friend at other outfit mentioned it was happening, but I believe they put a stop to it?) Don’t get me wrong, being home is fantastic, but I do look forward to actual trips and having a good time abroad. Honestly, 8-10 days away doing our trips no one else’s would be perfect! (Caveat - Trips depend on your base and seniority)

*Plenty of choices out there and do your homework. Find what works for you! Coming home early a few days before the Christmas debacle, flying Delta One from Spain, off for two weeks = Priceless!!! Although, being 6’ the leg room on the lie flat narrows too much and not enough shoulder width to truly lie flat on the 76, a350 was the same, but their was a cubicle sliding door. Still very grateful Widget delivered me home safe and on time. Best US crew I have had all year. (Seven Pacific/Atlantic trips on US carriers/3 Asian/European carriers) I normally travel on Asian/Arab/EU’s best, but flying  on US property without a mask was always the answer.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by AirGuardianC141747

[Prozac]

6 hours ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

Although, being 6’ the leg room on the lie flat narrows too much and not enough shoulder width to truly lie flat on the 76, a350 was the same, but their was a cubicle sliding door.

This right here says it all. You know you’ve made good decisions in life when you’re complaining about the seats in international first class! 😂 Oh, and I’m not picking on AirGuardian; I’ve thrown out similar complaints…..wouldn’t be aircrew if we weren’t whining about something. But I’d much rather be bitching about first class than black mold in my Q at the ‘Died. 

[AirGuardianC141747]

4 hours ago, Prozac said:

This right here says it all. You know you’ve made good decisions in life when you’re complaining about the seats in international first class! 😂 Oh, and I’m not picking on AirGuardian; I’ve thrown out similar complaints…..wouldn’t be aircrew if we weren’t whining about something. But I’d much rather be bitching about first class than black mold in my Q at the ‘Died. 

Oh no, pick away I undoubtedly deserve it hands down. Gave me chills when you mentioned the “D” word. I remember our crew being handed AC’s and off to the inflatables we went decades ago. I shuddered when we timed out many moons ago at the “D” on an Atlas run. Then we were driven down to “Doha the City” or whatever to a fantastic hotel - definitely no complaints there. Called my buds at the base to let them know I had 2 extra rooms attached come on down, they miserably replied: off base requests must be submitted 72hrs prior. A for effort, F for affect…

[hindsight2020]

22 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

yeah you shouldn't consider it the career totally sucks i wish i was still on AD getting treated well

Not at all what i said, ill leave ya to your usual strawmen. 

 

23 hours ago, SocialD said:

 

To your last point.  This year, I averaged 8-9 days worked and 3 nights away per month while averaging ~100 hours/month of pay.  I recently went on activation orders and now I'm working twice as much, while making 50% of what I was making (I'm a 21 year O-5)...that's some smeared glitter lol.  

I'm not advocating for regAF by daring to make a critical comment about 121 work rules on this regAF-hating echo chamber. I'm not even regAF, and my career lifetime paycut (indexed to a job I've never intended to pursue as primary payer mind you) has been a matter of public record for 17 years now. Theres really no need for that whataboutism.

Tbh, if you've tactically vol-mildropped or vol-mloa at any point in your 121 stint, you aren't really in a position to get defensive about JA et al existing in your cba. i dont care how crappy the work pay ratio is at .mil either, as people recognize pay is not the feature behind chasing mildrop or MLOA.

if JA isn't a real threat at DL, that's excellent news. It shouldn't be at all at any outfit paying top 10% US individual income; which was my actual point, before it got strawmanned to hell. BL it's reality at swa though, based on what i witness at work (plurality swa cohort).

 

I just find it a bit unbecoming one has to feign sickness or hide behind the Uniform in order to not be treated like a sonic carhop 5 minutes late to a $11/hr shift. Frankly id take the 11 bucks in lieu of 220, if they threw in not treating me like i didnt just flew 150 people and brought everything back in one piece. But that's my "future retiree" privilege talking, which I of course wont apologize for and fully own. To each their own as we say.

Back to lurking mode on this one. Happy new year! 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by hindsight2020

[BashiChuni]

4 minutes ago, hindsight2020 said:

Not at all what i said, ill leave ya to your usual strawmen.

I just find it a bit unbecoming one has to feign sickness or hide behind the Uniform in order to not be treated like a sonic carhop 5 minutes late to a $11/hr shift. Frankly id take the 11 bucks in lieu of 220, if they threw in not treating me like i didnt just flew 150 people and brought everything back in one piece. But that's my "future retiree" privilege talking, which I of course wont apologize for and fully own. To each their own as we say.

Back to lurking mode on this one

wait you'd take 11/hr over 220/hr?

much like AD the airlines don't care about you. no major company does. the beauty of the airlines is i know this, and know what levers to pull in order to maximize my QOL/days off/pay. blending the ratio of those three is in the eye of the beholder. feigning sickness or hiding behind the uniform have nothing to do with anything. sick leave/mil leave are negotiated benefits and the rules both sides play by. know the rules and play the game (just like on AD/AGR)

on AD you generally don't have a say in days off/pay/QOL

airlines aren't for everyone, and it sounds like you found your niche at mother RND...and that's a good thing! cheers to 2023!

 

 

[Prozac]

2 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

Not at all what i said, ill leave ya to your usual strawmen. 

 

I'm not advocating for regAF by daring to make a critical comment about 121 work rules on this regAF-hating echo chamber. I'm not even regAF, and my career lifetime paycut (indexed to a job I've never intended to pursue as primary payer mind you) has been a matter of public record for 17 years now. Theres really no need for that whataboutism.

Tbh, if you've tactically vol-mildropped or vol-mloa at any point in your 121 stint, you aren't really in a position to get defensive about JA et al existing in your cba. i dont care how crappy the work pay ratio is at .mil either, as people recognize pay is not the feature behind chasing mildrop or MLOA.

if JA isn't a real threat at DL, that's excellent news. It shouldn't be at all at any outfit paying top 10% US individual income; which was my actual point, before it got strawmanned to hell. BL it's reality at swa though, based on what i witness at work (plurality swa cohort).

 

I just find it a bit unbecoming one has to feign sickness or hide behind the Uniform in order to not be treated like a sonic carhop 5 minutes late to a $11/hr shift. Frankly id take the 11 bucks in lieu of 220, if they threw in not treating me like i didnt just flew 150 people and brought everything back in one piece. But that's my "future retiree" privilege talking, which I of course wont apologize for and fully own. To each their own as we say.

Back to lurking mode on this one. Happy new year! 

 

I think you may have some flawed assumptions about what JA is. The days of “you pick up the phone, you’re on the hook to fly” are long gone. JA is completely voluntary at every airline that I’m aware of and usually comes with some serious financial incentives should you decide to accept the JA assignment. At my company, it’s 150% pay. I believe others are higher. If scheduling makes it through the entire seniority list with no takers, they may be inclined to offer further incentives. Sometimes flights cancel for lack of crews when there are no takers. Over this last summer, it was not uncommon for me to get two or three JA calls in a day. My time off was more valuable to me and I don’t think I picked up a single extra trip. I have friends that did and made a LOT of money. It’s good to have choices. 
 

When your bros at SWA & elsewhere talk about being forced to work overtime, they may be referencing the fact that most airlines can keep you out past your originally scheduled return to domicile. It’s not super uncommon to be returned to base a day (or sometimes more) later than scheduled & it can be infuriating if you had hard plans on your first day off. Every contract I’m aware of discourages this practice with extra pay that ramps up quickly the longer you’re kept out. There are stories at my company about people making absolutely stupid money when they got stuck in Europe for over a week when the volcano in Iceland blew a few years back. Late arrival sucks, but at least you’re compensated for it. The other way you get “forced” into working overtime is through line construction. At my company, minimum guarantee is 75hrs per 28 day pay period. On certain fleets, you’d be hard pressed to find a line constructed below 80 hrs and we have some pushing 85, so that is sometimes considered a sort of forced overtime as well. 
 

Hope that clears things up a bit. There are obviously a lot of us here who consider our QOL to be much better than when we in the AF and time off and pay are certainly some hard metrics that support that position. Doesn’t mean we’re shitting on those who choose to stick around. On the contrary; I appreciate those who continue to serve and am sometimes in awe. I didn’t have the patience to continue. There are a lot of intangibles that might make someone decide to stay in. I don’t think the “threat” of JAs should factor into one’s decision though. 

[Hugo Stiglitz]

3 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

BL it's reality at swa though, based on what i witness at work (plurality swa cohort).

At SWA you can never be called or have flying added on a day off, but it can be added if you’re on duty. One confusing thing is that here the term “JA” applies to what you’re thinking of (“You thought you were going home but this other trip needs to be covered so go do it”), but also to what is actually an unscheduled overnight (“I got so delayed today that I missed the last deadhead flight back home”). While the former is contractually legal it’s exceedingly rare (hasn’t happened to me in 5+ years), although the latter occurs in my experience maybe twice per year. In a true JA you’re flying a brand new pairing in addition to the one you already flew, but in an unscheduled overnight you’re contractually deadheaded home on the earliest flight following your rest period.

And here’s the biggest difference with the AF: you’re rewarded if the company doesn’t get you home when you planned. True JA pays double on all legs, unscheduled overnight pays higher of 1.5 or full day’s rig, and if you’re reserve you have the option to drop a day of work later in the month. A minimum of extra $500-$1600 depending on seniority is a pretty decent way to feel okay about getting home at noon instead of 1am. Compared to my C-17 career when a 10-day SRT consistently got me home 2-3 days late and sometimes 2 weeks late with nothing to show other than a backlog of office work and pissed off Bobs, it’s a night and day difference.

Our union actually tracks this stuff if you’re curious…during this week’s epic meltdown there were 70 unscheduled overnights*, exceeding the historic average of 14 for that week. There were 9 true JAs, and the historical average for that week is 0.

There are definitely reasons to decide airline life isn’t for you. IMHO JA really shouldn’t be one of them. 

*Edited for full transparency that this number only refers to people at the end of their trips and not the ones who got messed up in the middle of theirs from all the cancellations and clogged scheduler lines. Also plenty of commuters who couldn’t get home too.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Hugo Stiglitz

[ClearedHot]

WTF Delta?  Anyone have more info on this case?

 

[SocialD]

19 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

Tbh, if you've tactically vol-mildropped or vol-mloa at any point in your 121 stint, you aren't really in a position to get defensive about JA et al existing in your cba. i dont care how crappy the work pay ratio is at .mil either, as people recognize pay is not the feature behind chasing mildrop or MLOA.

 

 

Tactical mil dropping isn't my bag, though it clearly happens.  Actually, I generally don't ever drop MLOA unless it's to go TDY or a deployment.  I can usually work mil around my airline schedule and only drop sparingly.  So there is no "feature" for chasing mloa, it's actually a huge detriment for me.  The only reason I'm on MLOA now is because of a deployment...working full time in the military is pretty painful to me anymore.  On the home stretch though, 6 months!

 

 

19 hours ago, hindsight2020 said:

if JA isn't a real threat at DL, that's excellent news. It shouldn't be at all at any outfit paying top 10% US individual income; which was my actual point, before it got strawmanned to hell. BL it's reality at swa though, based on what i witness at work (plurality swa cohort).

 

I just find it a bit unbecoming one has to feign sickness or hide behind the Uniform in order to not be treated like a sonic carhop 5 minutes late to a $11/hr shift. Frankly id take the 11 bucks in lieu of 220, if they threw in not treating me like i didnt just flew 150 people and brought everything back in one piece. But that's my "future retiree" privilege talking, which I of course wont apologize for and fully own. To each their own as we say.

 

Meh, it's something that was allowed (or forced) into the contract, that has not been negotiated away, likely because it's such a low threat item.  I generally spending time worrying about stuff that isn't likely to happen at my airline gig.  

 

Happy New Year brother!    

[SocialD]

36 minutes ago, ClearedHot said:

WTF Delta?  Anyone have more info on this case?

 

Yes, there is a lot more than meets the eye.  Some people love to hold her up on a pedestal because they hate everything Delta and/or management.  I freely admit they fucked up in how they tried to get rid of her, and they payed for that, but from the sounds of it, they weren't necessarily wrong...  Flown with a few guys that flew with her and they pretty much called it.  There is a thread over on APC that will provide some of the data.  But this should help her book sales/webpage/public persona that she's created...

Edited January 1, 2023 by SocialD

[Practice Pan]

Ya gotta admit that the short haul airline system has to change..and soon..probably to high speed rail...the Europeans are starting now..The waste of POL to haul a container of people up to ..I dunno 270 ..whatever..cannot be sustained..

[Clark Griswold]

link to APC thread:  Congratulations to First Officer Pettit - Airline Pilot Central Forums (airlinepilotforums.com)

 

[pawnman]

19 minutes ago, Practice Pan said:

Ya gotta admit that the short haul airline system has to change..and soon..probably to high speed rail...the Europeans are starting now..The waste of POL to haul a container of people up to ..I dunno 270 ..whatever..cannot be sustained..

We couldn't even build high speed rail from LA to San Francisco. What makes you think we'll be able to do it across state lines?