The new airline thread

[BashiChuni]

sex has nothing to do with it.

Edited March 11, 2023 by BashiChuni

[mcbush]

Just say what you're thinking, Bashi

[BashiChuni]

its simple, the lowering of hiring standards (hours requirements/college degree/etc), massive hiring wave + pressure to expand airline networks devastated by covid has created a lot of strain on the system.

add in the early retirements of ATC and senior pilots during COVID...this has created a system where there are thousands of new, inexperienced crew members (no fault of their own we all start somewhere), working in a system where safeguards and margins are thinner than they were in the past. dispatch, below wing, ATC, pilots, ramp control etc....lots of new people in new jobs with rapid expansion. the stress is showing. i double+triple check every runway i cross these days and don't take anything for granted

how many new ATP pilots entered the system since 2021? how many pilots have airlines hired?

 

break break i know i'll get shit for this but it doesn't help when every major airline is constantly sending out emails and pats on the back for how many new hires are DEI or women or gay. what does that contribute to the problem? unknown. but it doesn't make it better

the trope "diversity makes us stronger" is a farce. it doesn't. skilled pilots/crew members REGARDLESS OF THEIR COLOR, SEX, RELIGION makes us stronger and better. no one is prevented from becoming a pilot because of their background.

YES there are areas of society where the barriers to entry were/are higher, but honestly that is life! go out, work hard, train hard, and get it.

our society has to move away from DEI metrics. and scrubbing training folders/failures to keep up with the woke narrative is not making the airline industry safer.

Edited March 12, 2023 by BashiChuni

[uhhello]

46 minutes ago, BashiChuni said:

its simple, the lowering of hiring standards (hours requirements/college degree/etc), massive hiring wave + pressure to expand airline networks devastated by covid has created a lot of strain on the system.

add in the early retirements of ATC and senior pilots during COVID...this has created a system where there are thousands of new, inexperienced crew members (no fault of their own we all start somewhere), working in a system where safeguards and margins are thinner than they were in the past. dispatch, below wing, ATC, pilots, ramp control etc....lots of new people in new jobs with rapid expansion. the stress is showing. i double+triple check every runway i cross these days and don't take anything for granted

how many new ATP pilots entered the system since 2021? how many pilots have airlines hired?

 

break break i know i'll get shit for this but it doesn't help when every major airline is constantly sending out emails and pats on the back for how many new hires are DEI or women or gay. what does that contribute to the problem? unknown. but it doesn't make it better

the trope "diversity makes us stronger" is a farce. it doesn't. skilled pilots/crew members REGARDLESS OF THEIR COLOR, SEX, RELIGION makes us stronger and better. no one is prevented from becoming a pilot because of their background.

YES there are areas of society where the barriers to entry were/are higher, but honestly that is life! go out, work hard, train hard, and get it.

our society has to move away from DEI metrics. and scrubbing training folders/failures to keep up with the woke narrative is not making the airline industry safer.

You could have led with that versus your original reply.  That being said, not sure how you can pull all that info from a recording.  Don't disagree with the above though. 

[SurelySerious]

The airlines are hiring enough questionable white males without DEI right now as it is. Least professional pilot I’ve ever encountered, who was already kindly asked to leave a ULCC? You guessed it, in a legacy new hire class recently.

[brabus]

I agree overall with @BashiChuni. But, none of that is proven to be a RC (that I’ve read about) in most of the recent near mishap/runway incursions. It very well may be, but we shouldn’t overlook other possible CFs/RCs. Case in point, the AA heavy crossing without clearance - pretty sure the CA wasn’t inexperienced or a DEI hire. 

[Prozac]

4 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

its simple, the lowering of hiring standards (hours requirements/college degree/etc), massive hiring wave + pressure to expand airline networks devastated by covid has created a lot of strain on the system.

add in the early retirements of ATC and senior pilots during COVID...this has created a system where there are thousands of new, inexperienced crew members (no fault of their own we all start somewhere), working in a system where safeguards and margins are thinner than they were in the past. dispatch, below wing, ATC, pilots, ramp control etc....lots of new people in new jobs with rapid expansion. the stress is showing. i double+triple check every runway i cross these days and don't take anything for granted

how many new ATP pilots entered the system since 2021? how many pilots have airlines hired?

 

break break i know i'll get shit for this but it doesn't help when every major airline is constantly sending out emails and pats on the back for how many new hires are DEI or women or gay. what does that contribute to the problem? unknown. but it doesn't make it better

the trope "diversity makes us stronger" is a farce. it doesn't. skilled pilots/crew members REGARDLESS OF THEIR COLOR, SEX, RELIGION makes us stronger and better. no one is prevented from becoming a pilot because of their background.

YES there are areas of society where the barriers to entry were/are higher, but honestly that is life! go out, work hard, train hard, and get it.

our society has to move away from DEI metrics. and scrubbing training folders/failures to keep up with the woke narrative is not making the airline industry safer.

TLDR version: Biden’s fault. 

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, brabus said:

I agree overall with @BashiChuni. But, none of that is proven to be a RC (that I’ve read about) in most of the recent near mishap/runway incursions. It very well may be, but we shouldn’t overlook other possible CFs/RCs. Case in point, the AA heavy crossing without clearance - pretty sure the CA wasn’t inexperienced or a DEI hire. 

Absolutely. Lots of issues factoring into the equation. 

[BashiChuni]

2 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

The airlines are hiring enough questionable white males without DEI right now as it is. Least professional pilot I’ve ever encountered, who was already kindly asked to leave a ULCC? You guessed it, in a legacy new hire class recently.

Yes. Scraping the bottom of the hiring barrel. 

[BashiChuni]

34 minutes ago, Prozac said:

TLDR version: Biden’s fault. 

You missed the majority of my point. 

[jice]

8 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

You missed the majority of my point. 

You missed the majority of his. 

[brabus]

10 hours ago, Prozac said:

TLDR version: Biden’s fault. 

Well to be fair he didn’t mention Biden once. Also, so do you agree with purposely hiring less qualified candidates based on superficial attributes that have nothing to do with the job at hand?

[Prozac]

42 minutes ago, brabus said:

Well to be fair he didn’t mention Biden once. Also, so do you agree with purposely hiring less qualified candidates based on superficial attributes that have nothing to do with the job at hand?

I am very much in favor of hiring qualified candidates, period. If unqualified people are in fact being hired, and lapses in safety are resulting, then that absolutely needs to be investigated. I’ve seen exactly zero actual evidence presented here to support that case. What does appear to be happening is that certain people would like to frame this issue to fit their own personal culture war narratives. This will not help us fix the problem. 

[HeloDude]

54 minutes ago, Prozac said:

I am very much in favor of hiring qualified candidates, period. If unqualified people are in fact being hired, and lapses in safety are resulting, then that absolutely needs to be investigated. I’ve seen exactly zero actual evidence presented here to support that case. What does appear to be happening is that certain people would like to frame this issue to fit their own personal culture war narratives. This will not help us fix the problem. 

Brabus didn’t say hiring “unqualified” candidates, he said hiring “less qualified” candidates.  Being a less qualified candidate for a job literally means you’re still qualified.  At least that’s how I read both of your posts?

But to the point you’re trying to make, are you suggesting that the most qualified candidate (the best candidate based on merit) is always the one chosen for any job?

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

What does appear to be happening is that certain people would like to frame this issue to fit their own personal culture war narratives. This will not help us fix the problem. 

you're the only one talking about a narrative

[brabus]

2 hours ago, Prozac said:

I am very much in favor of hiring qualified candidates, period. If unqualified people are in fact being hired, and lapses in safety are resulting, then that absolutely needs to be investigated. I’ve seen exactly zero actual evidence presented here to support that case. What does appear to be happening is that certain people would like to frame this issue to fit their own personal culture war narratives. This will not help us fix the problem. 

Ok, I think we’re generally on the same page.  I define diversity hires as those who are less qualified/lower chance of performing to standards being hired over counterparts who are more qualified, but lack “desirable” superficial qualities. I personally have seen several diversity hires between the ANG and the airlines, including seeing their lacking performance in training. Thankfully two of them won’t be flying what they were originally hired for. The other two are out there, having been given way more “try again with some extra hand holding” in training than anyone should ever be given. I’m one personal data point, and guarantee I’m far from the only one who has witnessed this. DEI hires are real, have been happening for a while, and certainly are jeopardizing safety. The way forward is to go back to a meritocracy hiring system and find these DEI hires in the wild and do an honest assessment if they should continue or not (I’m sure some have made it over the hump and will be OK, but I also am sure others are still liabilities.

[Prozac]

20 minutes ago, brabus said:

The way forward is to go back to a meritocracy hiring system

So here’s where we diverge from the “why are these issues happening” discussion and get into the whole philosophy of diversity thing. I didn’t really want to engage earlier but I think this is important.
 

Do you think there was ever a “meritocracy hiring system”? I don’t. There was a good ol’ boy network, but never a meritocracy. One of the benefits of of diversity is tight there in the description: you diversify your hiring pool. You end up with a larger pool of qualified candidates than you would’ve had before. Does it work perfectly? Of course not. But neither did the old system. You don’t think Billy Bob ever got put in the front seat of an F-4 or 727 because his brother-in-law knew the chief pilot & not because he was the best guy for the job? It’s all well and good to want to hire the best candidate but often times that’s an unrealistic pipe dream. Always has been. Always will be. 
 

For the folks arguing that we are less safe today because “diversity”, I challenge you to prove it. Don’t give me some one off, anecdotal example. Show me statistics that say commercial aviation is getting progressively less safe. Because all of the evidence that I’ve seen shows that we are far safer now than we were when Jimbo the Chief Pilot had the sole and final say on who got hired. 

[FourFans]

Anyone here familiar with the Giant 3591 crash?  Yeah, that.  The FO hid his training failures during the hiring process, had multiple training failures at Atlas, and was almost scrubbed from their program...which is saying something...but wasn't because he played the 'you're firing me because I'm black' card, and was retained.  That asshat had no business behind the controls of a coffee machine, muchless a heavy jet.  That's the kind of incident that will become more and more prevalent.

[Prozac]

9 minutes ago, FourFans said:

Anyone here familiar with the Giant 3591 crash?  Yeah, that.  The FO hid his training failures during the hiring process, had multiple training failures at Atlas, and was almost scrubbed from their program...which is saying something...but wasn't because he played the 'you're firing me because I'm black' card, and was retained.  That asshat had no business behind the controls of a coffee machine, muchless a heavy jet.  That's the kind of incident that will become more and more prevalent.

I agree 100%. I worked at Giant for a stint & still have many friends there. I was shocked when that crash occurred & even more shocked when I heard about the circumstances. Epic fail on Atlas’s part. Can you think of any accidents that were caused by white pilots that had no business at the helm of a transport category aircraft? I can. Unfortunately, people slip through training for myriad reasons. In my experience, we’re doing a better job weeding them out now than we ever have before. Again, show me a statistic that says “diversity” is making us less safe. 

[FourFans]

30 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Can you think of any accidents that were caused by white pilots that had no business at the helm of a transport category aircraft?

I definitely can.  Can you you point to EVEN ONE incident where a white pilot who should have been fired was retained because he claimed "you're firing me because of my race or gender"?

Melatonin content and wedding tackle should have absolutely no bearing in the hiring process because gender and race have no discernable impact on the capabilities of a pilot.  The moment they are introduced as any form of discriminator, the quality of the force goes down, because they stop hiring for quality and start hiring for diversity.  That's how DEI bullshit is diluting the gene pool.  That's basic logic.  Can you not see that?  

Following your rules, the NFL and NBA would be better if they hired more white guys and asian girls, and the oil fields would be more productive if they had a quota of weak armed trans-men work the rigs.  The logic of DEI is completely false.  Removing some barriers to entry makes sense, enforces quotas does not.

30 minutes ago, Prozac said:

show me a statistic that says “diversity” is making us less safe. 

Also basic logic: it's impossible to prove a negative.  Asking someone to do so is violently ignorant.

If you make your world view decisions primarily based on "statistics", you're putting yourself at the whim of any tool who knows how to twist numbers to his view.  Logic and reason.  Use logic and reason.

When you stop hiring based on ability to do the job, you get a lower quality product.  When you DO hire based on ability, you'll get all the diversity you need as a side-effect.

You want a stat?  Ok.  An airplane was crashed (and yes, one is too many) by a man who should have been fired based on his performance but was retained predominantly because of his race.

Show me a stat that proves diversity has IMPROVED the safety of the airlines.  (that's a positive by the way...those can be proven)

Edited March 12, 2023 by FourFans

[Guardian]

So here’s where we diverge from the “why are these issues happening” discussion and get into the whole philosophy of diversity thing. I didn’t really want to engage earlier but I think this is important.
 
Do you think there was ever a “meritocracy hiring system”? I don’t. There was a good ol’ boy network, but never a meritocracy. One of the benefits of of diversity is tight there in the description: you diversify your hiring pool. You end up with a larger pool of qualified candidates than you would’ve had before. Does it work perfectly? Of course not. But neither did the old system. You don’t think Billy Bob ever got put in the front seat of an F-4 or 727 because his brother-in-law knew the chief pilot & not because he was the best guy for the job? It’s all well and good to want to hire the best candidate but often times that’s an unrealistic pipe dream. Always has been. Always will be. 
 
For the folks arguing that we are less safe today because “diversity”, I challenge you to prove it. Don’t give me some one off, anecdotal example. Show me statistics that say commercial aviation is getting progressively less safe. Because all of the evidence that I’ve seen shows that we are far safer now than we were when Jimbo the Chief Pilot had the sole and final say on who got hired. 

Explain please how the hiring pool is more diverse and what that diversity looks like on paper. What categories of diversity I guess is what I’m asking.

[Smokin]

Increasing the diversity of the hiring pool is very different than increasing the diversity of those hired.  The pure civilian path to an airline pilot has traditionally been an expensive ordeal.  Loans were likely not available to inner city kids that had no credit and no one to co-sign the loans.  If we are talking about looking at creative ways to get kids that have the right aptitude and attitude, but not the means, into that training pipeline then that increases the pool of applicants.

However, that is only a very small part of the discussion right now.  United has stated that they want 50% of their new hires to be women or minorities.  I think it would be naive to think that is not being considered at some level during the actual hiring process.  That serves to reduce the effective size of the hiring pool, which makes it certain that you're going to end up with a less qualified pilot being hired.

Finally, the diversity we should be interested in is diversity of thought, not skin color.  I have met many people that look very different than me that think in a similar way I do.  Hiring them only makes us look diverse.  But if you hire a white dude from Texas and a white South African, I guarantee you're going to have more real diversity than hiring two Air Force fighter pilots that happen to be different races.  Obviously that's not important because we all know that only appearances matter these days.  This is why our superpower days are over.

[Prozac]

Too much thread derailment here & I fully admit to my role in it. Happy to continue this discussion in another thread. Let’s get back to helping good dudes & dudettes make career decisions & get hired. 

[Lord Ratner]

9 hours ago, Prozac said:

I agree 100%. I worked at Giant for a stint & still have many friends there. I was shocked when that crash occurred & even more shocked when I heard about the circumstances. Epic fail on Atlas’s part. Can you think of any accidents that were caused by white pilots that had no business at the helm of a transport category aircraft? I can. Unfortunately, people slip through training for myriad reasons. In my experience, we’re doing a better job weeding them out now than we ever have before. Again, show me a statistic that says “diversity” is making us less safe. 

This is bullshit. You asked for some evidence, got it, now you're moving the goalposts. 

[FourFans]

18 hours ago, Prozac said:

Too much thread derailment here & I fully admit to my role in it. Happy to continue this discussion in another thread. Let’s get back to helping good dudes & dudettes make career decisions & get hired. 

You asked me a question.  I answered it.

I asked you a question...in the airline thread...about airlines...and this is your response? 

In proper conversation, not to mention debate, the typical course respectful course of events is either analysis of the answer received followed by factual claims backing up your argument OR acceptance to new data and adjustment of your own view point.  

...or you can pretend that discussion about airline pilot hiring practices have no place in the thread about...

18 hours ago, Prozac said:

helping good dudes & dudettes make career decisions & get hired. 

Perhaps you can answer this one then: Why is it that every time I ask a rational counter-question about facts in a realm that might even remotely touch the social upheaval we're experiencing (DEI in the hiring of airline pilots falls squarely in that camp), the  individual on the other side of the debate that I question either ghosts me, clams up, claims discomfort with the question, or tries to dodge it entirely (your tactic above).  Are you the only one that gets to ask probing questions?

I asked you a question.  Would you be willing to respond to that question so good dudes and dudettes can better understand the environment their seeking a career in?

How does diversity improve airline safety?

Edited March 13, 2023 by FourFans