The new airline thread

[HossHarris]

18 hours ago, xaarman said:

Heh heh, to be clear... this is airline hot, airline shitty and airline terrible places. 

Still worlds better than -135s at AUAB in the summer. 

I’m 737s on Short Call, live in domicile, and have worked 6 days this month, half of those beings a deadhead only days. While I did get assigned a 3 day trip starting tomorrow, I’m hoping that’ll be it for the month. 

Honestly, this job makes you really lazy. 

Boredom is a serious concern.....

[TreeA10]

My wife has occasionally asked me if I still had a job when I have an extended duration of nobody calling.  Almost makes me feel unwanted....almost.

[ImNotARobot]

Fedex has limited domiciles but great commutability. 

Concur, and this point cannot be overemphasized. The traditional pax-carrier thinking is turned on its head with FedEx. You DO NOT need to live in domicile with FedEx. Many front side / back side DHs to begin and end your work week. And if not, a quick JS into Memphis only 2-3 hrs before the trip showtime is the other possibility.

For me and mine, the hellish option would be to move to Memphis and raise my kids here. Absolutely not. Not attempting to piss in anyone else’s Cheerios with where they’ve chosen to live. Without going into graphic detail, it’s simply not an option for my family. I’m glad to hear that guys senior to me love the out’n’backs...take every single one of them. Most of my months I only see Memphis for a quick day hub turn or (most likely) not at all.

I declined a Delta interview once I was hired at FedEx. I already knew that my hatred toward the flying public would outweigh any wining / dining that Atlanta could entice me with during the interview process. I know that the Big D is fantastic for many guys...and again, more power to them. My family’s correct pick has nothing to do with any other family’s correct path.

Another FDX plug...20+ years ago, the cargo pilot was looked upon as a second class citizen who couldn’t get hired as a “real” airline pilot. Anyone who has carnal knowledge of today’s schedules work at FDX has a hearty laugh at this. As a wide body FO since day 1, my half a month of “work” includes choosing which catering will be delivered and making sure my PJs are clean (enough) for my next nap, which will consist of precisely 1/3 of the enroute cruise time. The only time I’m required to show my face on the “other” side of the airport is when I’m in business casual civvies, getting paid block hours to DH in first class. It’s just stupid.

I’ll say again, I’m very happy that the pax world (or moving to Memphis) is the perfect pick for many of us. But the cargo world does offer an entirely other job IMO. Airplanes are involved in both, but that’s where the similarities end. FedEx specifically has so many flavors of schedule (NB, WB, pure domestic, mixed domestic/intl, pure intl, nights, days) that are available from day 1, each FDXer has a different trash/treasure to seek...FROM DAY 1. We don’t have to wait for 5-10-15 yrs before sampling the WB pay, and certainly not before sampling the paid longer intl layover. We are not Part 117, which I’m discovering is a beautiful thing.

I personally wouldn’t be happy as a pax guy. I speak only for myself.

Hiring data point for consideration: I’m at 85% at the company after 1.5 yrs on property.

[BashiChuni]

I’ll be looking at the jump to airline world in two years. Only long term concern about FedEx/UPS is the move to unmanned ops. 

Im thinking long term here over the course of a 30 year career. 

That concern alone makes pax more appealing in my mind. 

[ImNotARobot]

I’ll be looking at the jump to airline world in two years. Only long term concern about FedEx/UPS is the move to unmanned ops. 
Im thinking long term here over the course of a 30 year career. 
That concern alone makes pax more appealing in my mind. 

Good point on Skynet becoming self aware.

All sarcasm aside, here’s an article addressing some of the moral ambiguity associated with autonomy.

https://news.stanford.edu/2017/05/22/stanford-scholars-researchers-discuss-key-ethical-questions-self-driving-cars-present/

While my crystal ball has a crack in it, I think that we are decades away from retrofitted single-piloted cargo aircraft, and even farther from totally autonomous airborne vehicles...that can realistically cover the insatiable growth & volume of cargo demands.

Which cargo outfit will be the first to launch a narrow or wide body aircraft over the heavily populated LAX, ORD, DFW, SEA, JFK, EWR, ATL, etc with current cargo and fuel loads? Into the same airspace as (gasp) the people pilots and their (admittedly) more precious cargo? What are the contingincies in place for that large aircraft to lose link and start bebopping along wings level until comms are reestablished? Or having to lose an engine @ V1 and execute an SDP...where we all admit ATC will not know what we’re doing for terrain clearance? And if Captain Terminator does hit the flock of geese and has no Hudson in which it to ditch...how does that software choose which building it will take out? Who’s life is worth more? Is it OK to crash into a sparsely populated section of NYC because speaking from a utilitarian standpoint, the volume of lives lost is more important than which millionaire’s high rise building will be affected?

I will submit, however, to the death by a thousand paper cuts with regard to the glorious autonomy on the horizon. Smaller airborne bots from Amazon and others, already delivering smaller packages “the last mile” and therefore directly competing with human pilots and truck drivers. But as a cargo pilot, the last mile is not my concern currently.

Again, if only my damned crystal ball wasn’t broken in two...but for my almost 30 years remaining in this business, I like my chances for a stable future. And as depressing as this might sound, I would posit that single-pilot ops would occur as the standard before no-pilot ops, whether we’re pointing at cargo or pax. And at that point...I’d like to review my hourly rate on that contract before I’d make any judgement.

TL;DR—it’s the people on the ground BELOW the aircraft that are the biggest moral problem with autonomous aircraft.

[matmacwc]

1 hour ago, ImNotARobot said:

wide body aircraft over the heavily populated LAX

 

Funny you use LAX first, I think it would be the easiest to do, launch/recover right over the ocean.

[ImNotARobot]

Funny you use LAX first, I think it would be the easiest to do, launch/recover right over the ocean.

Good point!

[Hacker]

Seriously -- single-pilot or autonomous ops at the cargo carriers aren't going to be the order of the day in the career-span of anyone currently reading this forum who is in a position to get hired in the next half dozen years.

FedEx won't even spend the money to make sure the A300 FMS has the memory and processing power to operate in the full RNP/RNAV environment, instead opting to delete points out of the database that are at airports not served by the A300.

So I don't see them jumping on a technology that isn't cheaper than just paying a regular old pilot to do the work.

As soon as FAA-approved autonomous technology (and all the associated satellite time, system mx, reliability, etc) is a dollar cheaper than a pilot...well, then, count on it being the order of the day.

But it isn't.

Just look at how slow the FAA is to approve nearly *anything* technology related.  Look at how advanced the avionics are that the experimental world has, and how nearly none of that is getting certification at anything other than a snail's pace, if at all.

Go back and look at the archives of FlightInfo.com or APC and you'll see exactly the same fear-mongering in the mid-late 90s, and people saying cargo pilots were gonna be out of a job in 10 years.  Those predictions aren't aging particularly well.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Hacker

[BashiChuni]

hacker i hope you're right.

but every time the private sector gets pushed against a wall what do they do? innovate.

technology is moving way faster than it was even 10 years ago.

now that being said would i take a job at fedex in two years? hell yeah lol maybe im a hypocrite but i honestly worry about automation during my 30 year airline career. I don't think its that far fetched.

[Jaded]

Are you more scared about single pilot ops or outfits like Norwegian Air? 

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

Are you more scared about single pilot ops or outfits like Norwegian Air? 

Not scared. Aware. Both I’d say

[SocialD]

7 hours ago, ImNotARobot said:

Another FDX plug/good words...

I'll always tell my friends that if they live in a city that a particular airline has a major base then go there.  If you're going to commute, go to FedEx, for many of the reasons in Robots post.  DH's on each end are awesome and amazing for QOL of a commuter.  Hopefully you guys never cave to PBS because many of those trips could dry up as PBS is an efficiency machine! 

Other than that, the worry about dealing with pax is severely overblown by cargo guys.  My interaction with pax is limited to seeing them as I walk back to the bunk for my break.  When I was on a NB, it was limited to saying goodbye for 5 minutes as I checked out for hotties...unless it was the last leg of the day/trip, then I'm gone at break set!  If we ever have issues with one, either the FAs take care of it or we call the cops/a company specialist.  Shut the door and surf the interwebs while it's going down.  

 

1 hour ago, BashiChuni said:

but every time the private sector gets pushed against a wall what do they do? innovate.

technology is moving way faster than it was even 10 years ago.

No doubt, there is no shortage of innovation, it's the regulation that moves at a snails pace.  Fuck, we've been trying to get a tactical arrival into our base (fairly close to a class b) and you'd think we're trying to restructure the entire arrival/departure corridor of ATL or DFW.  5 years laters, we've made little progress due to bureaucracy.  Hell we were told, just trying to lower a MOA below 6k would take 6-9 years of environmental studies/bureaucracy.  Ever hear of NextGen? 

What Hacker said!  Companies won't spend shit on technology unless it's guaranteed to save them money.  Heck I've been told that our former CEO wouldn't invest in something unless it could pay itself back in 12 months or less.  They settled on shitty ass Surfaces (that were terrible) until they were forced to go to iPads due to Jeppesen saying they wouldn't support the surface anymore (at least that's the rumor). 

If anything, where I see this start to take hold is in long haul ops.  4-pilot crews dropping to 3, and 3 pilot crews dropping to 2.  I mean today the only radio call I made from 20 West to 50 west was an SELCAL check...the rest was just bsing with the other guy.  Would I want to do it single pilot....no f'n way!  Like many things, it's super easy, until it isn't... 

Honestly this is one of the things that I could see unifying every pilot and every union (ALPA/Teamsters/APA/SWAPA/etc...).  Could you imagine every airline and every cargo carrier going on strike at once?  I honestly think that would happen, if companies tried to go single pilot.  I'm in my early-mid 30s and I'm really not worried about single-pilot/no-pilot ops.  

[BADFNZ]

The thing that I constantly hear about Fed Ex/UPS is the schedule being heavy on night lines and it takes a toll on your body/life.  For you cargo dudes, what percentage of lines are overnight?

[Jaded]

Flying at night in Asia is like day flying in the states.

But no seriously your body clock is way screwed up for a couple days. The amount of night flying you do is, you guessed it, based on seniority.

[ImNotARobot]

The thing that I constantly hear about Fed Ex/UPS is the schedule being heavy on night lines and it takes a toll on your body/life.  For you cargo dudes, what percentage of lines are overnight?

FDX only: I’d say it’s at least 50/50, maybe closer to 60/40. That’d be 60% nights.

Techniques on getting paid are widely varied. Some will move to Memphis to sit reserve (day or night) at home. Some will take the line awarded and fly that exactly, so they will suffer more nights in the beginning and eventually move to days. When is eventually? Depends on which airframe.

From my bidpack observation, the 757 is the heaviest on nights, and multilegs on those nights. The 777 is like its own airline on the other side of that spectrum, almost exclusively rocking long haul, never really seeing a hub turn, day or night. The 767/Bus are somewhere in the middle. The MD is a jack of all trades...days/nights/short/medium/long/domestic/intl. The company appears to hate the MD. Bad accident history, no one will ever purchase them again. It’s a battered wife scenario with the MD. They sure hate it, but they simply cannot retire them due to the unique lift they provide. Like a gap wedge...somewhere in between a 777 and a 767. But an ugly rusty old gap wedge they’d rather recycle with something sexy and new...that doesn’t currently exist.

My point is, that night percentage is dependent on the fleet. 777 will eventually watch the sun set on a 12+ hr flight unless they’re going with the sun.

With all those nights and multiple legs per duty period on the 757, one can hold CA @ 100% in less than two years. And fly 100% nights. Or be in the top 25% of FOs on the 75. And probably fly mostly days. But compared to the rest of the company’s nights schedule, it’s brutal.

Or you can stay a WB FO for your whole career. Or you can wait til the 5+-8 yr point to hold 767/Bus/MD left seat. Not real sure how many years the more junior 777 CAs have on property. But all the seniority gravitates to the triple. It’s a simple math problem...most $$ for least amount of work. Some triple FO posted the straight up TRUTH about his average trip earlier in this thread. He’s totally ruined to do any actual “work” for the rest of his life...and why should he? From PJs/catering/airborne naps while hitting the cycle for every soft money stipulation in the contract is hard to walk away from.

My point of going into all that extra crap is your nights % question is a red herring to decide cargo or not. I’ll let a UPS guy weigh in with what Brown can do for you...but at FDX, if they give you nights, aggressively search open time and change your fate after you’ve cut/slashed/burned/proffered every dog shit trip you were awarded. Someone out there is totally OK with flying nights. I’m thankful that those exist...I’m guessing about 60% of the company if the bid packs are accurate.

Me? I’m not interested in flying nights. Unless it’s one leg into a beautiful trip with day flying and long layovers for the rest of the pairing.

[ARAMP1]

2 hours ago, BADFNZ said:

The thing that I constantly hear about Fed Ex/UPS is the schedule being heavy on night lines and it takes a toll on your body/life.  For you cargo dudes, what percentage of lines are overnight?

I think I went a 3-4 month stretch once without having a night landing.  

 

It just all all depends on the lines you bid.  

Edited July 24, 2018 by ARAMP1

[JeremiahWeed]

9 hours ago, BashiChuni said:

hacker i hope you're right.

but every time the private sector gets pushed against a wall what do they do? innovate.

technology is moving way faster than it was even 10 years ago.

now that being said would i take a job at fedex in two years? hell yeah lol maybe im a hypocrite but i honestly worry about automation during my 30 year airline career. I don't think its that far fetched.

Many people discuss single pilot ops as a precursor to autonomous ops.  What they fail to acknowledge is that single pilot ops (in 121 cargo or pax birds) is really autonomous ops.  This is because, if we ever get to the point where we are launching a single pilot Boeing or Airbus transport category aircraft on revenue service flights, there's going to be some way to cope with the possibility that the only pilot becomes incapacitated.  Therefore, single pilot ops isn't going to happen until we're really at the point of autonomous operations.  That's not going to happen until we no longer use a spoken VHF radio link with ATC for starters. 

This is all about the money and less about whether we have the technological capability to field an autonomous freighter.  Of course, the technology exists today.  But the reality of using it in our current environment and infrastructure along with the cost of aircraft mods and the fact that they would still have to pay operators on the ground is the biggest factor.  The modifications on any existing freighter to go to single pilot with an autonomous contingency option are obviously extensive and expensive.  FedEx just committed to an additional 12 777s to add to the 35+ they already operate and has firm orders on almost 70 more 767s on top of the 55 brand new ones they've bought in the past few years.  A single 777 flight from Asia to the US generates millions of dollars in revenue every time we takeoff.  The pilots flying that freight represent a fraction of one percent of the overall cost in generating those millions.  I doubt the modifications required to support autonomous ops with these newly acquired aircraft as well as necessary changes to the existing public and private infrastructure at the worldwide airports we operate in and out of would produce a cost savings over the life of the jets.  IMO, anyone currently old enough to fly for a living and post here with concerns about a 30+ year airline career is very safe.

As far as going down to 3 or 2 pilots for long haul:  What's the justification?  The aircraft haven't changed.  There really isn't a way to increase the automation from where it already is and justify reducing crew requirements as a result.  The human body hasn't changed.  Our ability to combat fatigue and the cumulative effects of the sleep debt we accrue on a 1 to 2-week trip is still the same.  The work load might be low during oceanic cruise periods, but at any point a system failure might change that rapidly.  The busy terminal area is still busy at the other end of the 13+ hour flight - less pilots in either situation means more work enroute, shorter breaks and more potential for fatigue.  I'm about to go to bed and hopefully sleep for about 6 hours before my alert call.  When I wake up, I'm going to make my third Pacific crossing between Japan and the US in less than a week.  No one's going to be able to convince me fewer pilots would have been warranted on any of those flights.  Good night.  😴

Edited July 24, 2018 by JeremiahWeed

[ImNotARobot]

Slight gear shift...would an AAL airperson explain the red/redder scheduling concept I saw mentioned in another thread? Never heard the term before.

[Lord Ratner]

Slight gear shift...would an AAL airperson explain the red/redder scheduling concept I saw mentioned in another thread? Never heard the term before.

It has to do with trip dropping. If a trip is green, you can drop it off your schedule. If it's red, you can't (but you can still trade it). Apparently things are red a lot more following the December debacle where everything was flagged green erroneously, so everyone dumped their Christmas trips. I wasn't working here at the time though

[ImNotARobot]

It has to do with trip dropping. If a trip is green, you can drop it off your schedule. If it's red, you can't (but you can still trade it). Apparently things are red a lot more following the December debacle where everything was flagged green erroneously, so everyone dumped their Christmas trips. I wasn't working here at the time though

What percentage of awarded trips are green for you? I suspect the red/green % split varies widely with seat/fleet/month/etc.

Big picture, do you basically have to fly what you’re awarded because all your trips are coded red? Why in the heck couldn’t you trade it to another pilot with ANY trip? Company still has the trip covered.

[Lord Ratner]

What percentage of awarded trips are green for you? I suspect the red/green % split varies widely with seat/fleet/month/etc.

Big picture, do you basically have to fly what you’re awarded because all your trips are coded red? Why in the heck couldn’t you trade it to another pilot with ANY trip? Company still has the trip covered.

Dropping means it goes back to the company (into what it's called "open time"), without you taking anything in return. I'm very junior, so none of my lines were green.

You can trade your trips for trips that are in open time, as long as it doesn't interfere with other flying. Red or green doesn't matter here, because it's one-for-one.

You can also trade directly with another pilot, again as long as it doesn't conflict with your schedule. This also doesn't involve red or green.

Disclaimer: I'm new, so I could be wrong on certain things

[Buddy Spike]

On 7/25/2018 at 9:35 AM, ImNotARobot said:

 

What percentage of awarded trips are green for you? I suspect the red/green % split varies widely with seat/fleet/month/etc.

Big picture, do you basically have to fly what you’re awarded because all your trips are coded red? Why in the heck couldn’t you trade it to another pilot with ANY trip? Company still has the trip covered.

 

There is no set percentage (and the company won't divulge their metric for the lights).

For this month?  Most people, the percentage of their trips that are green is 0%.  

I have had one trip that I was able to trade to a better trip through our Trip Trade System (TTS).  The rest is red/redder (AA is colorblind, so instead of normal colors like Green/Orange/Red for trading, it's Red/Redder).

 

[Buddy Spike]

22 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Dropping means it goes back to the company (into what it's called "open time"), without you taking anything in return. I'm very junior, so none of my lines were green.

You can trade your trips for trips that are in open time, as long as it doesn't interfere with other flying. Red or green doesn't matter here, because it's one-for-one.

You can also trade directly with another pilot, again as long as it doesn't conflict with your schedule. This also doesn't involve red or green.

Disclaimer: I'm new, so I could be wrong on certain things

No.  Red/Redder refers to trading for trips in Open Time.  That's the biggest rub.  If you have a shitty 4 day and you find a good 4 day in open time,  if it's "redder" the trade won't happen.

The only time the TTOT lights don't matter is pilot to pilot or TTS.

[Lord Ratner]

No.  Red/Redder refers to trading for trips in Open Time.  That's the biggest rub.  If you have a shitty 4 day and you find a good 4 day in open time,  if it's "redder" the trade won't happen.
The only time the TTOT lights don't matter is pilot to pilot or TTS.

Thanks, I'm still putting it all together still. But I was correct on green vs red and dropping, right?

[Buddy Spike]

5 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

7 hours ago, Buddy Spike said:

No.  Red/Redder refers to trading for trips in Open Time.  That's the biggest rub.  If you have a shitty 4 day and you find a good 4 day in open time,  if it's "redder" the trade won't happen.
The only time the TTOT lights don't matter is pilot to pilot or TTS.

Thanks, I'm still putting it all together still. But I was correct on green vs red and dropping, right?

That's correct.  Green trips can be dropped. Red trips cannot.  Red/Redder is for trading with open time.