The new airline thread

[ThreeHoler]

In short, yes, I think we'd have those things, or some other mixture of perks. You think the highly skilled employees at Amazon and Google are languishing away under harsh work conditions because they have no union? When your talent is free to leave to better compensating employers, you need to compensate better. Unions make it easy for many to do nothing and reap the benefits of the few that bust their ass negotiating, but it also traps us at a certain company, and delays improvements until the contract is up for negotiation.

It's a logical fallacy to assume we only have the things we do because of a union. That doesn't mean there aren't benefits, but way too many things are attributed to unions in the airlines in my opinion. We're not grocery baggers. Our skill set is in high demand and limited in supply.

No, but the rank and file Amazonians are toiling away. It sucks to be a picker. Or even a floor manager. Not everyone gets the Tony Carr job.

It is even worse for all the Amazon version of TCNs...the third company employees who don’t get $15/hr or any benefits to work just as hard as throes getting that cash. Speaking of $15/hr...the rank and file lost their “pay” of shares when Amazon went to the new $15/hr. They’re actually making less now but it looks better.

[Buddy Spike]

10 hours ago, SocialD said:

Why do you think they're not so great?  Do you believe that we would continue to have many of the contractual items that make our QOL so nice?  Tomorrow I get to rest in an actual bunk, rather than the 1st class seat right in front of the mid galley (banging carts/dishes) that the company fought hard for us to use.   On my next trip I'll get to enjoy using KCM to go to work.  I'm certain we'd lose many of our contractual flight duty period limitations.  Hell management applied for an exemption so they could block us up to 9+45 hours (2 pilot), until the union found the filling on the web.  It caught the company with their pants down and they quickly retracted it.  I'm also guessing that section 1 would be completely dismantled ASAP. 

I'm all for helping the company run an efficient operation, but we're running pretty damn good and giving back Billions to shareholders.  IMHO this gig wouldn't be anywhere near as nice if our unions go away.  I have friends who have worked for non-union operators in this industry and it isn't pretty.  I'm guessing the UPS guys are extremely happy they have IPA.  Having done union work as well, I'm damn glad we have a union.  Glad to hear you're doing what you can to help as well.

I think it's a matter of strength of union and work rules.

You work for an airline with a contract that is decent and management / middle management / scheduling that doesn't openly hate you.

APA is not a union.  They're a widebody CA protection group. The work rules are protected only by FAR 117, beyond that, it's mostly a scheduling free for all or "not implemented yet" (after 6 years) or "IT issues" for stuff that would help the pilots.

From this perspective, I absolutely agree with Ratner on this. Without unions artificially propping up the weak sisters whose only accomplishment is to be hired first, the strong would thrive and the weak would be gone.  Some of the nonsensical language this group agreed to often makes me wonder if we'd be better off without any union at all.  Because when you call the company on their BS, the union's response is typically "we asked and they said no" or "fly it and we'll grieve it later" or "sorry but there's no language for that."

If we had a union that could actually stand up to the company (as opposed to being in bed with them as a flow-thru program to management positions), it might seem worth it.

[JeremiahWeed]

On 12/19/2018 at 11:44 AM, HuggyU2 said:

I'll admit that it seems that the System Scheduling Committee should work harder to push the company to build better lines, and that I was at a loss to understand why it couldn't be much better.

Found the reason.....

This is another example of why it's difficult to have a generic PBS vs Line discussion across airlines and the industry in general.  There are way too many nuances associated with a particular airline's schedule structure, trips, fly window and contract.

At FedEx, the pilots build the lines.  The company builds the trips, gives the scheduling committee the opportunity to ID problem trips, get them changed and then the build begins.  Who better to understand what is going to work best than the pilots in each fleet who will fly those lines.  I'd probably have the same complaints as that AS Captain if I relied on people who've never flown an airline schedule to build them for me.

There's a very simple solution to his woes but it will have to get by the "we've always done it this way" crowd.

[SocialD]

On 12/19/2018 at 10:24 PM, Lord Ratner said:

In short, yes, I think we'd have those things, or some other mixture of perks. You think the highly skilled employees at Amazon and Google are languishing away under harsh work conditions because they have no union? When your talent is free to leave to better compensating employers, you need to compensate better. Unions make it easy for many to do nothing and reap the benefits of the few that bust their ass negotiating, but it also traps us at a certain company, and delays improvements until the contract is up for negotiation.

It's a logical fallacy to assume we only have the things we do because of a union. That doesn't mean there aren't benefits, but way too many things are attributed to unions in the airlines in my opinion. We're not grocery baggers. Our skill set is in high demand and limited in supply.

Ya, I don't compare myself to other industries because it's a massively different dynamic and set of nuances.  I guess if I were going to look at another industry I would also look at the Maritime industry and see how that has worked out for the American worker.  In their case, only the Jones act has saved what is left, and even that is under attack.  But again, lots of different dynamics. 

I don't disagree about our inability to change between airlines, but I don't see that changing if unions were eliminated because you'd still have to contend with seniority issues wrt to basing and upgrade.  F/As have no union, yet have the same issues and get treated infinitely worse than us.  How do we decide on schedules, upgrades, etc....merit, the pilot willing to fly more overtime for single pay, the pilot who has the biggest kneepads?  That seems to be working out well for the AF right now.

I'm certain of one thing, DAL management would be salivating over the idea of no union on property.  They've already stated that if they could, DAL pilots would be flying about half as much of our current international flying.  If that were to happen, I'm guessing our hiring woes would be solved overnight for at least the next decade.  Along with slashing our section 1, I can see them dismantling many of our QOL items yet still be able to make it bearable.   IMHO (which isn't worth much), we'd lose big on QOL and pay and only potentially gain the ability to move between airlines.  By chance, did you go to B school?  Either way, interesting discussion. 

 

On 12/20/2018 at 8:44 AM, Buddy Spike said:

I think it's a matter of strength of union and work rules.

You work for an airline with a contract that is decent and management / middle management / scheduling that doesn't openly hate you.

Openly is a relative term.  Fighting to force us into shittier rest facilities.  Building trips in the quest to cut credit, with zero regard to fatigue.  Attempting to completely disregard the contract.  Trying to readjust profit sharing rules so they can take management bonus money from the PS pool, also lets me know how they feel.  Many have been squashed by then union, while some still need work.   

 

Quote

APA is not a union.  They're a widebody CA protection group. The work rules are protected only by FAR 117, beyond that, it's mostly a scheduling free for all or "not implemented yet" (after 6 years) or "IT issues" for stuff that would help the pilots.

Imagine if we weren't governed by an archaic and extremely employer friendly law called the Railway Labor act and we could more freely exercise even the most basic form of self help.   Many places do have protections over and above FAR 117, just because APA is faltering doesn't mean unions are useless.  Protecting WB CA spots is huge with respect to jobs and will always be a fight worth fighting.  That said, the work rules need to be good for the entire work group.  Remember that WB CA spots at AAL make up < 10% of the pilot group...you can easily out vote that demographic.  If your union isn't listening to the majority, it's time for a change.

 

Quote

From this perspective, I absolutely agree with Ratner on this. Without unions artificially propping up the weak sisters whose only accomplishment is to be hired first, the strong would thrive and the weak would be gone.  Some of the nonsensical language this group agreed to often makes me wonder if we'd be better off without any union at all.  Because when you call the company on their BS, the union's response is typically "we asked and they said no" or "fly it and we'll grieve it later" or "sorry but there's no language for that."

I don't disagree with you there, I briefly worked for AAL and saw that act when they wouldn't adjust our pay dates to align with the USAir hired guys that were in our very own indoc class.  However, the union does so much more than just the bullshit politics you see.  If you want change, start a grass roots effort.  You're airline is about to go through a massive transformation in age demographics over the next decade with LOTS of young blood.  Reach out to IPA for some lessons...while their contract isn't perfect, those dudes have a good idea of what it means to run a union.

 

Quote

If we had a union that could actually stand up to the company (as opposed to being in bed with them as a flow-thru program to management positions), it might seem worth it.

Again, we're cut off at the knees by the Railway Labor Act.  It's a relic that needs some serious updating to allow some basic forms of self-help, short of a full blown strike.  As it's written now, we're hamstrung by this employer friendly law.  Our effort should be more focused on changing the law, not getting rid of the union.    

UPDATE:

Just learned about another employer friendly section of the RLA.  We must file a grievance within 120 days of the issue, but the company has no requirement on their response time...Awesome!     

Edited December 24, 2018 by SocialD

[matmacwc]

Yeah, unions rock.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/39646/union-manages-tick-bunch-ups-holiday-employees-james-barrett

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, matmacwc said:

Yeah, unions rock.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/39646/union-manages-tick-bunch-ups-holiday-employees-james-barrett

LOL, the Fresno of union events. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by SocialD

[BADFNZ]

Can anyone explain the differences between line bidding and PBS to an idiot like myself?  Pretend like you're explaining it to a 5th grader.  Examples would be great.

[JeremiahWeed]

50 minutes ago, BADFNZ said:

Can anyone explain the differences between line bidding and PBS to an idiot like myself?  Pretend like you're explaining it to a 5th grader.  Examples would be great.

Those are methods for getting a monthly airline schedule.

A "line" is a month's (typically) worth of trips.  When someone talks about a "line" they are usually referring to actual trips all month.  There are also "lines" of reserve "on call" days but those usually aren't referred to in the same context as "holding a line" - which means you can avoid reserve and actually go fly regularly for the month.

So - line bidding means that someone (union pilots, company workers, a combination) builds schedules using a series of individual trips that have already been constructed before they get put into lines.  They do the same thing with schedules of reserve days.  This is done for every aircraft type and each seat in that aircraft.  Enough schedules (of both flying and reserve) are built so that there are enough for almost every pilot in whatever aircraft and seat they fly.  So, the 767 Captains in a particular base can look at their February bid pack and see each individual flying line and reserve line available to them.  The #1 seniority pilot picks first and so on.  Once the schedules are awarded in seniority order, everyone has their schedule except for maybe 5-20% of the pilots in each fleet/seat (depending on airline).  Those who don't are the ones who couldn't hold one of the pre-set schedules or chose not to.  Their schedules (typically called secondary lines) will be determined later once the line holders and reserve pilot's schedules have dealt with known conflicts between trips or reserve days and other events like mil leave, recurrent training, vacation and conflicts with trips from the current month carrying over into the new month for which they just bid.  The unassigned trips and reserve days that results from those conflicts will be built into new schedules for those 5-20% of the pilots still waiting for their schedules using inputs for what they want (again in seniority order) that they give to the planners.

PBS is essentially the secondary process I just described for the 5-20% applied to the entire pilot group.  The flying and reserve days are not built into pre-determined lines (schedules).  As a result, the schedules are built to avoid conflicts from the start and there is no need for the secondary process I described above.  This is obviously more efficient and requires fewer pilots overall.  Instead, everyone inputs their desires for types of trips, days on, days off, reserve if they want it, etc.  The schedules are then built using a program that considers seniority, pilot's inputs, FAR legality, contractual rules such as minimum days off, etc.  The key driver, as always, is seniority.  The number one guy gets pretty much what he asks for as long as it's legal with the FARs and contract.  The guys at the bottom get what's left. 

You've probably read the pros/cons of each system and the various opinions of each, so I won't go into that again.

Edited January 13, 2019 by JeremiahWeed

[SocialD]

Mostly what Weed said.  Line bidding has a packet of pre-built monthly schedules.  Then you just rank order the lines and they award them down the list.

PBS - you put in your preferences and and the system builds you a line.   What weed said about it avoiding conflicts is true, but it is a contractual thing.  You most certainly CAN have conflict bidding with PBS but most do not right now based on current contracts.  An example my monthly bid looks something like this....

Set condition to min credit

Prefer off Saturdays

Prefer off 17Jan, 18Jan, 19Jan

Avoid if layover in GRU, LOS

Avoid if layover >48 hours

Avoid if trip length > 6 days

Award if HNL limit 1

Award if 4-day if DH day if layover in AMS

Award if 3-day if layover in AMS

Award if layover in FCO

 

PBS will then start at the top and try to honor every possible line from top to bottom.  Even at 90% in my category I can generally build a line within the parameters I ask for...for example in December I was able to build a line that gave me from 20Dec to 31Dec off and gave me the layovers I wanted.  Some months are better than others.   

[brabus]

So why do people not like PBS (so I've read)?  It seems like a nice ability to list all of your desired trip criteria, then get some % of your list based on seniority.  Seems like it allows for more customizability of trips vs. having to choose between pre-determined, monthly schedules, though it does seem like more up front effort required.

[hindsight2020]

"I turned down 100 grand because their bidding wasn't [line/PBS]"...said no one, ever.

 

just saying. It reminds me of my back and forth I have with other airplane owners when it comes to Lycoming vs Continental (for the record, go Lyco!). It's a captive audience argument, since in order to get the airplane you want you have to accept the engine they come with (on the non-experimental side of the hobby at least) or just do without. Ditto for these airline considerations. You can't cherry pick it, so why cry over spilt milk. But maybe I'm wrong, and there are folks out there who wouldn't apply to an airline because it has PBS (the one usually hated more, anecdotally at least).

Edited January 14, 2019 by hindsight2020

[JeremiahWeed]

1 hour ago, hindsight2020 said:

"I turned down 100 grand because their bidding wasn't [line/PBS]"...said no one, ever.

^^^^ This ^^^^

There are way too many variables to have a discussion across airline borders.  I can tell you why I don't want it and why it would diminish QOL and QO-Schedules for the mid-level to junior pilots at FedEx if we accepted PBS.  But that doesn't mean most pilots at Delta or AA aren't happy and getting schedules they like using it.

Where it really matters is if you're working somewhere and the powers that be are considering going from line bidding to PBS (it never, ever will go the other way.... so that tells you a little something 😉).  In that case and if you have a vote in the decision, it would be important for you to understand what the ramifications of that change would truly mean to your scheduling process, manning, etc.  Lots of moving parts, different labor contracts, different PBS software, different programming and the end result may be very, very different at Airline X even though all the guys from Airline Y are here on baseops singing the praises of PBS.  Most of the bigs have already made the move, so it's probably not a high threat scenario, generally speaking.

[SocialD]

17 hours ago, brabus said:

So why do people not like PBS (so I've read)?  It seems like a nice ability to list all of your desired trip criteria, then get some % of your list based on seniority.  Seems like it allows for more customizability of trips vs. having to choose between pre-determined, monthly schedules, though it does seem like more up front effort required.

Where the "hate" comes from is the fact that most places that have switched to PBS have also given up conflict bidding.  Line/conflict bidding is HIGHLY inefficient, which is a good thing for pilots.  Some guys also don't like the uncertainty of PBS, whereas with line bidding, even if you don't know which line you'll get, you likely have a good idea of what the line will look like.  If I were at a place with line bidding, I wouldn't want to transition to PBS unless conflict bidding stayed.  I most definitely wouldn't pick my job based on line vs PBS bidding....and again, what Weed said. 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by SocialD

[herkbier]

FedEx question, What’s the relative seniority in a seat required to hold double dead heads? Just looking to educate myself and the spouse on differences between airlines. 

[JeremiahWeed]

4 hours ago, herkbier said:

FedEx question, What’s the relative seniority in a seat required to hold double dead heads? Just looking to educate myself and the spouse on differences between airlines. 

There's probably not a specific seniority level in each seat that equates to being able to consistently hold those.  I looked at the FOs in the 757 (i.e. the most junior position) for this month.  There are pilots in that seat who have been here less than a year who got DDHs (May 2018 hire).  The ones who are a little further up the list and actually had a choice of several different DDHs, i.e. it wasn't just a lucky fluke, have been here right around one year.  767 FOs are at about the 3 year point.  That will likely improve with that fleet scheduled to double from 60 a/c to 120 a/c, all brand new off the assembly line, over the next 2 years.  The other two domestic fleets (MD-11/A300) are in transition, slowly, toward being retired.  That's happening at a glacial pace at the moment and will likely last well into the 2020s, but it makes predicting monthly schedule bids difficult.  777 doesn't have anywhere near the same amount of DDHs as the domestic fleets, but if the deadheads are domestic, they're not difficult to get after just a few years.  A typical sequence would be DH to Indianapolis, work to Paris and around the world from there, end up in OAK at the end or even back in IND after flying from Asia and DH home from there.  Domestically, when a pilot is flying a series of single-day hub turn trips, they can have the equivalent of a DDH week long trip.  The line builders or just a pilot using aggressive trip trading can create a DDH week by trading for a front end DH on Monday (or Sunday) and back-end DH on Friday or Saturday.  The end result is the same as a week long DDH trip.  So, just because you may not be able to hold a true DDH outright doesn't mean you can't create one for yourself if you hawk open time looking to trade.

One note of caution:  On any fleet, but especially the 777, putting a deadhead on the front and back of an otherwise shitty trip is the scheduler's version of putting lipstick on a pig.   Guys will jump all over those without even a cursory glance at what they'll be doing once they get to their first revenue city and end up finishing the trip with a 1000-yard stare saying their "never agains".  DDHs are nice in theory and frequently in practice as well.  But, unless we're talking about a small number of "unicorn scenarios", they probably aren't going to make or break your QOL.  Holding DDHs to and from one's home airport being the ultimate unicorn.

The actual nuts and bolts of a particular DDH trip are going to determine if it's even something you want to fly.  For example - unless you live in a hub city for one of the major US carriers or are deadheading TO one of those same cities, your deadhead is most likely going to be a two-leg event domestically.  You live in Nashville or Phoenix and have a DDH in and out of Greensboro, NC.  You have to be there on Monday by 1330L.  If you're coming from Nashville that's probably doable if you're on the o-dark-thirty, first flight out to Charlotte, DC or ATL to connect to each major airline's GSO flight.  Depending on Wx, if you're on probation, etc. you may not feel comfy with that since you probably don't have any back-up options based on the timing, so you decide to leave Sunday and get in position early.  FedEx will cover the extra hotel in that situation (if you have extra travel $$) but you're not getting paid until Mon morning when your actual deadhead would have left MEM.  Coming from PHX or some other west-ish coast location, you're definitely leaving Sunday.  Maybe in either situation, you'd rather be commuting in Monday night on our jump seat to start your first trip out of MEM since you'll have a guaranteed seat on the flight in, commuter protection and less time off the clock commuting.

DDHs or even just front end or back-end DHs can be great enhancements to a commuters QOL, no doubt.  But that's going to be highly dependent on each pilot's situation.

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by JeremiahWeed

[herkbier]

Thanks for the thorough reply, I appreciate it. I’m gonna have to read it a few times to make sure I understand it all

[JeremiahWeed]

19 minutes ago, herkbier said:

Thanks for the thorough reply, I appreciate it. I’m gonna have to read it a few times to make sure I understand it all

Yeah - no one's ever accused me of saving trons on the interweb - sorry for getting long winded.  Let me know if I can clarify anything.

[BADFNZ]

Now that I understand PBS a little more, can anyone give an example of line bidding?  Is it just as it sounds?  SWA will post every single trip for the next month and everyone will bid what they want and seniority wins? 

[JeremiahWeed]

49 minutes ago, BADFNZ said:

Now that I understand PBS a little more, can anyone give an example of line bidding?  Is it just as it sounds?  SWA will post every single trip for the next month and everyone will bid what they want and seniority wins? 

Whatever airline you're talking about that is using line bidding, builds all the individual trips first.  Who participates in building the trips and then building the subsequent schedules with those trips may vary from airline to airline.  At FedEx, the company builds the trips.  A scheduling committee made up of pilots from each fleet, "scrubs" all the trips first looking for contract compliance, fatigue issues and problems in general.  Once those issues have been addressed, those same pilots takes that giant "pot" of trips and assemble them into individual monthly schedules for each seat and aircraft (i.e. lines).  Those are then published for the pilot group who submit bids for each individual schedule they want in the particular order they desire.  The bid is processed according to seniority and that's that.  #1 in each seat/aircraft gets the line he wants, then #2, #3... and so on.

[SocialD]

This brings up a good topic of when we'll get our schedules for the next month, since we all like to plan our lives.  Again this wouldn't be an item that sways my decision on where to go, but good info to know going in.  What is FDXs timeline for bidding/results?  At DAL our bids close at 1800E on the 11th and must be published by 1800E on the 17th.  Generally they're published by the 13th or 14th (FO bid posted ~24 hours after Captains).  This month is an outlier in that the Captain schedules weren't published until the 15th and we're still waiting on FOs (16th), and dudes are absolutely losing their minds.  

Info I got from my UAL/AAL brethren.  

UAL - Capts are publish NLT 0001 on the 16th and FOs NLT 0001 on the 18th.

AAL - Bids close at 1200 on the 13th...schedules published NLT 1200 on the 16th.

[FUSEPLUG]

SWA bidding closes at 1200 central on the 9th. We can see the awarded line a few hours later. 

[JeremiahWeed]

FedEx doesn’t use strict calendar months for their monthly schedules. We have 8 four week months (exactly 28 days) and 4 five week months (35 days) each year. They all start on a Monday and end on a Sunday. Our latest contract allows for a 6-week month but they’ve never used one in the three years it’s been a option. This Feb is a good example:  it’s a five week month and goes from 28 Jan to 3 Mar.

Now I can answer the question. Captains get their schedules at noon central time, 20 days prior to the start of the next month. FOs get theirs exactly one day later. This 24 hour delay is used in lieu of a “no-fly list”, “negative pilot” list or whatever other airlines call it. That allows FOs the option to avoid a particular Captain without FedEx having to accept whatever legal baggage comes with actually having a percentage of their pilots create a written record of their problem children every month. 😁

[panchbarnes]

 

More bad news for A1...

 

Quote

A key reason airlines are chasing military pilots is because the new FAA training rules only require them to have 750 hours of additional training, half the 1,500 required of civilians seeking a commercial pilot license.

Military helicopter pilots from the military only need additional training in flying fixed-wing aircraft, which takes about 90 days. For civilians, obtaining a commercial pilot license can take years and cost more than $100,000.

"We've stumbled upon the quickest solution to the pilot shortage," said Erik Sabiston, an Army veteran turned commercial pilot who founded Rotary to Airline Group in Dec. 2017 to help helicopter, or rotor, pilots make the transition to passenger jets. The not-for-profit group, with more than 7,000 pilots and mechanics, also assists airlines in designing rotor transition programs.

 

[Breckey]

A couple of the regionals already offer this. 

[StoleIt]

On 1/23/2019 at 5:47 AM, panchbarnes said:

 

More bad news for A1...

 

 

I call BS. How many 750 hour mil pilots have been picked up by a major? I bet zero.

Edit: Yes, the regional's are probably drooling over it but how many military fixed wing guys are seriously considering a regional?

Edited January 25, 2019 by StoleIt