The new airline thread

[BFM this]

2 hours ago, Hacker said:

That is the best management logic for not giving a great paying contract that I've ever read.

46% of the voting pilots agreed with you.

Edited May 5, 2021 by BFM this

[FLEA]

Thanks for the responses. I would like to make airlines work somehow, but I'm being murdered on PIC time. I have plenty of total time but a non-vul to RPAs followed by an MWS change that started me back as a copilot again have killed me. 

Recently met a guy from Kalitta who offered me a referral but I'm not sure how competitive it would be without the 500 PIC. 

[CaptainMorgan]

Go to a regional for 2-3 years and PIC time shouldn’t be an issue.


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[herkbum]

Thanks for the responses. I would like to make airlines work somehow, but I'm being murdered on PIC time. I have plenty of total time but a non-vul to RPAs followed by an MWS change that started me back as a copilot again have killed me. 
Recently met a guy from Kalitta who offered me a referral but I'm not sure how competitive it would be without the 500 PIC. 

I was in a similar position, but I have around 800-900 PIC from my Herk days. Due to BRAC, I was RPAs for almost 7 yrs, got pulled for a SQ/CC gig. My reward was I got to go to a manned flying squadron afterwards. Went thru an AC program but was a CP because that is what we do in the ANG. The proverbial switch flipped and I retired 1 Apr. Got hired at Atlas and start in a week. I didn’t get enough recency (100 hrs in 12 months, had 75) so I wasn’t really competitive for a major. I’m really looking forward to flying the 747 and building 121 time. I’m damn happy to be flying again. I know Atlas has started a R-ATP program that starts in the 737.


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[FLEA]

1 hour ago, CaptainMorgan said:

Go to a regional for 2-3 years and PIC time shouldn’t be an issue.


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I have 13 years. Do you think this is a better COA than just staying in for the same length of time? I don't know if I have the financial capability to stomach regional pay for that long. 

[FLEA]

15 minutes ago, herkbum said:

 

I was in a similar position, but I have around 800-900 PIC from my Herk days. Due to BRAC, I was RPAs for almost 7 yrs, got pulled for a SQ/CC gig. My reward was I got to go to a manned flying squadron afterwards. Went thru an AC program but was a CP because that is what we do in the ANG. The proverbial switch flipped and I retired 1 Apr. Got hired at Atlas and start in a week. I didn’t get enough recency (100 hrs in 12 months, had 75) so I wasn’t really competitive for a major. I’m really looking forward to flying the 747 and building 121 time. I’m damn happy to be flying again. I know Atlas has started a R-ATP program that starts in the 737.


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It sucks that the RPA skill set is generally useless outside the military unless you have an LRE qual. Even then, the good gigs are all taken at this point from what I hear. I know the AF doesn't owe anyone anything, and I did enjoy some aspects about my RPA time, but it does feel like you get stiffed serving a 10 year commitment for a a different job than what you signed the commitment for. 

[CaptainMorgan]

I have 13 years. Do you think this is a better COA than just staying in for the same length of time? I don't know if I have the financial capability to stomach regional pay for that long. 

In that case, no. Regional pay wouldn’t be bad if you’re also getting retirement, but if you’re separating, I can understand not wanting the drastic pay cut.


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[herkbum]

I have 13 years. Do you think this is a better COA than just staying in for the same length of time? I don't know if I have the financial capability to stomach regional pay for that long. 

It may be doable if you have a ANG gig to supplement.


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[Danger41]

2 hours ago, FLEA said:

I have 13 years. Do you think this is a better COA than just staying in for the same length of time? I don't know if I have the financial capability to stomach regional pay for that long. 

Can you go do a UPT IP gig for that 2-3 years instead of regionals? That’ll get you plenty of PIC time.

[FLEA]

32 minutes ago, Danger41 said:

Can you go do a UPT IP gig for that 2-3 years instead of regionals? That’ll get you plenty of PIC time.

It's a possible COA for sure, if I can avoid a wing or group job there and just focus on flying. However, being an FGO, everyone seems to think I'm being under utilized by just being a line pilot. So who knows. 

Yeah I'm really in a tough spot and as much as I want to airlines to work, I just continue to see obstacles that delay my getting there. 

I also can't appropriately illustrate the total amount of nausea I have from continuing in the AF. This was a rough year for me that irreversibly flipped some triggers for me regarding my tolerance to stay. 

[SurelySerious]

It's a possible COA for sure, if I can avoid a wing or group job there and just focus on flying. However, being an FGO, everyone seems to think I'm being under utilized by just being a line pilot. So who knows. 
Yeah I'm really in a tough spot and as much as I want to airlines to work, I just continue to see obstacles that delay my getting there. 
I also can't appropriately illustrate the total amount of nausea I have from continuing in the AF. This was a rough year for me that irreversibly flipped some triggers for me regarding my tolerance to stay. 

Similar boat, and I essentially decided I disliked AD so much I built myself a bubble that I’m going to work with while at the regionals. Probably going to be some lean times, but I’m going to make it work.

[jazzdude]

It's a possible COA for sure, if I can avoid a wing or group job there and just focus on flying. However, being an FGO, everyone seems to think I'm being under utilized by just being a line pilot. So who knows. 
Yeah I'm really in a tough spot and as much as I want to airlines to work, I just continue to see obstacles that delay my getting there. 
I also can't appropriately illustrate the total amount of nausea I have from continuing in the AF. This was a rough year for me that irreversibly flipped some triggers for me regarding my tolerance to stay. 

Plenty of FGO ADOs (including several O-5s) in the squadrons at UPT. T-6 (and probably T-38) buys you some schedule flexibility, since you can usually find time to squeeze in a 2.5ish hour flight period (1 hr brief, 1.3 flight, and a quick debrief) even when you have office duties, and everyone seems to welcome guest help. Just got to avoid sitting SOF or RSU...

[SurelySerious]

Plenty of FGO ADOs (including several O-5s) in the squadrons at UPT. T-6 (and probably T-38) buys you some schedule flexibility, since you can usually find time to squeeze in a 2.5ish hour flight period (1 hr brief, 1.3 flight, and a quick debrief) even when you have office duties, and everyone seems to welcome guest help. Just got to avoid sitting SOF or RSU...

And that’s exactly why I’m going to stomach a third of the pay for a while: the ability for my duty to be just flying.

It’s not the most exciting flying in the world, but there aren’t any ADO qweepdoms. But that’s what will work for me. YMMV.

[Lord Ratner]

Take the pay cut. Live like many Americans have to for their whole lives, and in a couple years you're golden. It's worth it. 

You are choosing between doing something that makes you miserable and living a median lifestyle. You may be surprised how easy it is to be very happy making very little. And in a few years, you'll be making a ton.

[HossHarris]

10 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

And that’s exactly why I’m going to stomach a third of the pay for a while: the ability for my duty to be just flying.

It’s not the most exciting flying in the world, but there aren’t any ADO qweepdoms. But that’s what will work for me. YMMV.

The queep only takes up as much time as you let it. 
 

what are they gonna do, fire you from your admin crap?  Stop giving you important but non-flying tasks?  It’s only as hard as you allow them to make it. 

[dream big]

On 4/25/2021 at 5:57 AM, contraildash said:

This. I'm curious how much is spent on dentists and doctors every year. I think we can safely argue that the Air Force would run just fine if it had neither. Kinda need those pilots though.....

The same could be said about many career fields..

[SurelySerious]

The queep only takes up as much time as you let it. 
 
what are they gonna do, fire you from your admin crap?  Stop giving you important but non-flying tasks?  It’s only as hard as you allow them to make it. 

AD is enough pain in the ass in my neck of the woods to not even make dodging qweep just to fly worth my time, which is why I’m taking my talents to the part-time force.

[1:1:1]

2 hours ago, HossHarris said:

The queep only takes up as much time as you let it. 
 

what are they gonna do, fire you from your admin crap?  Stop giving you important but non-flying tasks?  It’s only as hard as you allow them to make it. 

If you don't keep up with the queep you run the risk of getting a worse assignment. You might be fine for three years but then you're primed for white jets or non-flying staff or whatever the current bad deal is.

[jazzdude]

If you don't keep up with the queep you run the risk of getting a worse assignment. You might be fine for three years but then you're primed for white jets or non-flying staff or whatever the current bad deal is.

Staff assignments are getting rarer due to the pilot shortage, so I guess there's that silver lining. Though I guess mobility pilots are still going to TACC

UPT flying is pretty much flying for flying's sake. I was pretty disappointed when I got tagged to go, but it turned out to be an absolute blast, and I think I'm a better pilot and instructor for it. It also helped that I had a great, tight knit squadron.

Not a hard pitch to stay in, everyone's got their priorities and what they want it of their career and life. Just a different viewpoint so the younger guys don't just see doom and gloom.

[pawnman]

7 hours ago, 1:1:1 said:

If you don't keep up with the queep you run the risk of getting a worse assignment. You might be fine for three years but then you're primed for white jets or non-flying staff or whatever the current bad deal is.

Eh, 2-3 years may be plenty of time to get the PIC hours for an airline.  Then when they try to give you a worse assignment, you bounce for the airlines.

[FLEA]

Hey everyone; thanks for the contributions. One thing I will undoubtedly miss about the AF is the "bro culture" of helping each other out and trying to take care of our own. 

 

So if suppose I decide 100% to get out; what are some other options to accrue time? I mean, I know there are regionals, but any non-traditional opportunities I might not be thinking of? For example, a friend at work mentioned maybe something like the GOCO MC-12 thing the Army has going. Its a quick transition to left seat, flying focused, no admin BS, and probably pays better than an entry level regional. Thoughts?

 

Also, back to the topic of Kalitta, their requirements seem lower but their pay is higher than most regionals I look at. Whats the catch here? I've talked to one of their pilots who has said I would definitely be competitive in the upcoming environment, but not so much so that he would guaranteed I would get hired. But he has said that he has definitely flown with people with less experience. 

[disgruntledemployee]

One guy I know got hired at a job fair Kalitta was at, but that was about 6 years ago.  I know a few folks that went to Atlas, as well but they all jumped to UPS/FedEx when their number was up.  About 7 yrs when I asked, Atlas started with an internal rec.  When it came to the flying, 747/767 flying and types were cool, the long trip length worked for most, but liked the shorter trips in the majors a lot more.  Commuting was positive space, but imputed income.  Nutshell, not a bad place to start, but many look for better.  I do think that jumping to a major from an AMCI has higher chances than a regional.  The worldwide experience just seems more competitive.

If you have a connection, go for it.  If you want to continue the brosepher-ness, rush an ANG unit too.  I've know a few dudes that did ACMI/ANG.  And I've known a few folks that did Avenge to build time/experience.  They joked that they called it the future airline pilots group with just about everyone there working on time, building resumes, and perfecting the apps.  A contract or 2 and you're set.  My info is old, so try to find someone more recent.

Keep talking to friends, make the contacts, and get the info.

[SocialD]

5 hours ago, FLEA said:

One thing I will undoubtedly miss about the AF is the "bro culture" of helping each other out and trying to take care of our own. 

 

Unless you already have your 20, rush a Guard unit, you'll still get that but not all the rest of the full time ass pain.  Otherwise bail, every single Captain I've flown with who had recently gotten out, didn't regret it one bit.  Most say they missed it for like 2 weeks, then they realized there was a whole other life they now get to live.  I absolutely can't wait...have my 20, just another year for my 3 years in grade. 

 

5 hours ago, FLEA said:

So if suppose I decide 100% to get out; what are some other options to accrue time? I mean, I know there are regionals, but any non-traditional opportunities I might not be thinking of? For example, a friend at work mentioned maybe something like the GOCO MC-12 thing the Army has going. Its a quick transition to left seat, flying focused, no admin BS, and probably pays better than an entry level regional. Thoughts?

 

Is going overseas, spending more time away from home really worth it to you?  I've flown with a few guys who did that stuff and there is NFW I'd be doing that shit.  However minuscule, it's honestly just not worth the risk IMHO.   You'll make yourself a much better candidate by doing some regional/ACMI flying.  I'd apply at the ACMI carriers, Spirit or a regional where you can live in base.  In my both of my legacy airline indoc classes, there were former mil guys who had been at a regional...most of them barely finished OE when they received the call.  Basically, as soon as they finished their checkride, they updated their resume/checked the 121 box and were immediately called for interviews. 

I'm convinced that going to a regional is the only reason I got hired so early in 2014.  At the time, only shop chiefs/DOs/CC/s, who had 1700+ Viper hours (IP/EP quals) were getting called.  Then here I was, a scheduler with 850 in the Viper (1700 TT) and only a 4-ship FL, getting hired by two legacies.  A good friend in the squadron was hired circa 2016 at UPS and FDX (and interviewed at another legacy), with basically the same quals as me (lower time Viper driver/NON-IP).  We're both convinced the only reason we were called was because we had both gone to a regional.  I actually only had a little 100 hours of 121 time...I think checking the box was enough.

 

 

5 hours ago, FLEA said:

Also, back to the topic of Kalitta, their requirements seem lower but their pay is higher than most regionals I look at. Whats the catch here? I've talked to one of their pilots who has said I would definitely be competitive in the upcoming environment, but not so much so that he would guaranteed I would get hired. But he has said that he has definitely flown with people with less experience. 

 

I wouldn't hesitate to go to Kalitta if they offered an interview.

[Gazmo]

Going to a regional basically allows a legacy carrier to verify you can make it through a 121 training program and get through OE.

[Prozac]

Flea, one thing to think about when considering Kalitta or other ACMIs is upgrade time. Not sure what your situation is or how much PIC you’ve accumulated in the military, but if you think you need more, upgrade at the regionals will likely happen more quickly than at the ACMIs. A place like Kalitta can be a great intro to the part 121 world for a mil guy. Just be careful not to paint yourself into a corner.