HuggyU2 Posted October 24, 2021 Posted October 24, 2021 https://www.rtag.org/events/annual-2021-rtag-convention
Guardian Posted October 24, 2021 Posted October 24, 2021 Stupid comment from a slightly inebriated me. Thanks Huggy. Anyone have first hand experience? Huggy what did you do when not under the mil employ?
HuggyU2 Posted October 24, 2021 Posted October 24, 2021 4 hours ago, Guardian said: Huggy what did you do when not under the mil employ? I had always wanted to try my hand in something where I was organizing/running a group or organization. After a lot of networking, I accepted an offer to run an aviation non-profit (basically, a club of jet owners) as their Executive Director. I could write a small book on the experience, but I resigned after 18 months and went back to the airlines... from which I had been absent for 15 years. Glad I worked in the ED job, otherwise I'd have always wondered if I should have done it. With the experience behind me, I know now that I have a much better quality of life where I am. 3 1
AirGuardianC141747 Posted October 24, 2021 Posted October 24, 2021 On 10/20/2021 at 4:20 PM, Hacker said: Not at all. The entire point of an airline career is to work little and get paid a lot...it isn't about the passion or enjoyment of flying. In all walks of life - to work little and get paid a lot is the goal at its most purest form, no doubt. Flying cool stuff is awesome or the ability to fund any hobby and do it well is outstanding. *Best case scenario still includes passion or enjoyment in whatever you might be getting paid well for. Just my take personally. When you enjoy going to so called “work” it is a blessing. Not all airline “jobs” are created equal by any means so hopefully a schedule/work lifestyle fits the bill. For some it will always be work and for others it becomes better with seniority. Lucky for you if it starts out that way, but most have started at X and end up at Y so usually gets better. Do your research to fulfill your priorities which is normally work little, paid a lot I will not deny. If you actually jump on board going somewhere with folks quite happy with the work they do it makes all the difference at times rather than falling back to “Well at least the pay is good/at least I don’t have to work much!” Cuz it’s exactly that, Work… Sometimes it works out not to be. 1
Ryder1587 Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) Wide body and international flying. What are your opinions based on experience? Obviously you’ll make more money long term. Pros. Cons. Has anyone been able to bid this and stayed NB and just done domestic flying ? also, which airlines allow you to drop the entire schedule and build your own to maximize pay? Edited October 28, 2021 by Ryder1587
Alpharatz Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 On 10/22/2021 at 10:21 PM, dogfish78 said: It is for sure a “well worn” path 🤣 I hear that all the dumps in Angeles City are long closed...does that affect the selection of the little woman? Or aren't you choosy?
nunya Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 8 hours ago, Ryder1587 said: Obviously you’ll make more money long term. Invalid assumption. Gross income is not as simple as hourly rates. It’s not even entirely dependent on left or right seat. Seniority is a pay raise all its own. You want to stay domestic? Yeah, you can do that everywhere and it’s not an uncommon career plan. Lots of guys don’t want to deal with the circadian interruptions, longer legs, customs, large international cities, etc. 1
SocialD Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Ryder1587 said: Wide body and international flying. What are your opinions based on experience? Great life if you can get it. Especially great if you're a commuter. Almost all our trips are commutable and you can cut your commutes to just 2 times a month with our 6 day trips. If I hadn't been displaced prior to rona, I likely would have stayed WB FO until I could hold the left seat of a WB. If I were a commuter, I'd definitely stay WB for my career. 11 hours ago, Ryder1587 said: Obviously you’ll make more money long term. Pros. Cons. Has anyone been able to bid this and stayed NB and just done domestic flying ? When rona started, I displaced all the way down to 717 FO so I could be senior. Many months, I'm working less and make more as a 717 FO than I did as a 330 FO. The ability to work your schedule as a senior NB FO, allows you to easily close the pay gap if you so choose. I chose to stay domestic and bid over to captain, rather than reinstate back to WB FO right now. Until the world stops losing their minds and restrictions are lifted, I'll hang out domestic. Also, right now our WB are doing a much of domestic flying which is shit. The thing that made life on the WB so great was not having to deal with domestic rotations....made reserve life way more predictable. I'll definitely look at going back to WB FO down the road. 11 hours ago, Ryder1587 said: also, which airlines allow you to drop the entire schedule and build your own to maximize pay? At DAL, as long as there is appropriate reserve staffing (almost always was pre rona...not sure now), then you can drop your scheduled to zero. I'd drop my entire schedule every month I had a line when I was a WB FO. Then I'd pick up more efficient trips when I wanted to fly. Worked the same amount if days as originally schedule but made a lot more money. Good living while it lasted. Edited October 28, 2021 by SocialD
Ryder1587 Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 4 hours ago, SocialD said: When rona started, I displaced all the way down to 717 FO so I could be senior. Many months, I'm working less and make more as a 717 FO than I did as a 330 FO. The ability to work your schedule as a senior NB FO, allows you to easily close the pay gap if you so choose. At DAL, as long as there is appropriate reserve staffing (almost always was pre rona...not sure now), then you can drop your scheduled to zero. I'd drop my entire schedule every month I had a line when I was a WB FO. Then I'd pick up more efficient trips when I wanted to fly. Worked the same amount if days as originally schedule but made a lot more money. Good living while it lasted. How long once Delta keeps hiring at their rate before you can hold WB? I’m trying to decide between commuting with Delta or living in hub with Southwest. Does Delta have a problem with dropping mil leave, say once a month , to drop a trip?
Waingro Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 17 hours ago, Ryder1587 said: Wide body and international flying. What are your opinions based on experience? Obviously you’ll make more money long term. Pros. Cons. Has anyone been able to bid this and stayed NB and just done domestic flying ? United new-hires can hold 777 FO. Mid-summer hires from this year can hold 787. I expect they'll sit reserve for years though, and United's reserve rules aren't great. Worse for global reserve (int'l has a different set of rules, mainly they can fly you into your days off, up to 6 total days a month). United new-hires can (right now) hold a NB line in the junior bases before the finish IOE. So yeah, lots of good reasons to stay NB. First year pay is all the same, and nobody on the WB is breaking reserve guarantee right now, so you'd make more money on NB. Lots of options for people though.
TreeA10 Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) AA 777 FO. I've done 767/787/777 international and 727/737/MD80 domestic. Most of your work is done from leaving the gate to level off and then descent back to the gate. Domestically, you are going to do that several times per day over multiple days with shorter layovers. Hotels are hit and miss. Mechanical, weather, hub delays only make your day worse. International trips you fly 2 legs with a longish layover. ETOPS doesn't allow for many open mechanical issues and we usually have a maintainer on standby to get problems solved. Hotels are usually nice. Long layovers means you can explore local history, restaurants, beer. Downsides are time zone/body clock and sleeping issues. Legal flight routing can put you over some barren terrain with few divert options dealing with marginal English speaking controllers. With seniority, a widebody FO can make more than a narrow body CA and work fewer days. You need to find what works for you. Edited October 28, 2021 by TreeA10 5
SocialD Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Ryder1587 said: How long once Delta keeps hiring at their rate before you can hold WB? I’m trying to decide between commuting with Delta or living in hub with Southwest. Does Delta have a problem with dropping mil leave, say once a month , to drop a trip? Way too many variables to know how long to a WB. When I was hired I figured it would take 10 years to hold a WB...I ended up getting it at 2 years. Right now, I think it's sitting closer to 4 or 5 years, but it could go way junior (or senior) on the next bid. In the current environment, anything is possible...whacky times. I can't really tell you what to do about the SWA vs DAL decision. On one hand, I never want to commute (I left another legacy to not have a commute), on the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want to do the type of flying SWA does for an entire career. Delta can't do much about your MLOA, they have to honor it Dropping a trip a month isn't really something that would even get a second look. How long do you have left in the military? Are you planning on staying put? Personally, I wouldn't make a career decision based on a mil commitment, especially if I only had a handful of years left. Plenty of jobs available all over the U.S, especially if you're willing to stop flying and just get across the 20 year line. I talked to another FO today that was doing a non-flying CAP gig to finish his 20. I know a few others that hung up the G-suit to do RCO and AOC gigs. I hate being full time in the guard, so I'm always looking for minimal commitment on that front, so this may not be what you're looking for lol. Edit: Also, what Tree said! Edited October 28, 2021 by SocialD
Ryder1587 Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 45 minutes ago, SocialD said: Way too many variables to know how long to a WB. When I was hired I figured it would take 10 years to hold a WB...I ended up getting it at 2 years. Right now, I think it's sitting closer to 4 or 5 years, but it could go way junior (or senior) on the next bid. In the current environment, anything is possible...whacky times. I can't really tell you what to do about the SWA vs DAL decision. On one hand, I never want to commute (I left another legacy to not have a commute), on the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want to do the type of flying SWA does for an entire career. Delta can't do much about your MLOA, they have to honor it Dropping a trip a month isn't really something that would even get a second look. How long do you have left in the military? Are you planning on staying put? Personally, I wouldn't make a career decision based on a mil commitment, especially if I only had a handful of years left. Plenty of jobs available all over the U.S, especially if you're willing to stop flying and just get across the 20 year line. I talked to another FO today that was doing a non-flying CAP gig to finish his 20. I know a few others that hung up the G-suit to do RCO and AOC gigs. I hate being full time in the guard, so I'm always looking for minimal commitment on that front, so this may not be what you're looking for lol. Edit: Also, what Tree said! I have 7 years left and only really doing it because I found a great part time flying gig. Not so much for the retirement. How does Delta differ from SW if you were flying domestic NB? Is it just less hops with longer layovers ? Thanks for the info.
Guest Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 23 hours ago, Alpharatz said: I hear that all the dumps in Angeles City are long closed...does that affect the selection of the little woman? Or aren't you choosy? Tag ‘em and bag ‘em I say.
HuggyU2 Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) On 10/28/2021 at 10:08 AM, Ryder1587 said: Does Delta have a problem with dropping mil leave... ? Play by the rules of the USERRA law and tell Delta Airlines to kiss your ass. https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/VETS/legacy/files/USERRA_Private.pdf In other news... I'll have 28+ years at United when I retire, and I will not be able to hold a widebody leftseat based on current projections. When I was hired, we had 5 year Captains on narrowbody. But after bankruptcies, mergers, 9/11, 2008 economy down-turn, china-virus, and a plethora of other events... I've learned that the question of "when can I upgrade..." is an unanswerable question. Who knows? The variables are entirely unpredictable. A bud of mine was in the first UAL class after things shut down for a year (May 2021). Pilots hired a year later will be 2000 numbers junior to him. To put that in perspective, those pilots currently 2000 numbers junior to me were hired 15 years after I was. And I'm not even going to discuss the ramifications of those who were Continental pilots during the merger. If you do not understand the significance of my statistic, then you need to talk to someone who does. The whole "where will I be?" is a stupid question. If you want to dress up and play airline pilot, then get ready for a fucked up career. Edited October 30, 2021 by HuggyU2 2 4
nunya Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Ryder1587 said: How does Delta differ from SW if you were flying domestic NB? Is it just less hops with longer layovers? No. You're a cost item to the company. You're costing them and not making them money if you're not in the seat. They're going to use you to the full extent of the law and your contract. Domestic NB is many legs (very rarely less than 3-5) and short layovers (11-12 hours), wherever you go unless you play one of the many, many schedule enhancement games. Those games differ for each carrier but they are where you make your money and tilt the scales in your favor away from the company using and abusing you. Unfortunately as an outsider there's no way for you to fully appreciate those games so don't even try to consider them in your "which airline" decision. Unless you are sure you want WB, don't commute for DAL.
Hugo Stiglitz Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 6 hours ago, Ryder1587 said: I have 7 years left and only really doing it because I found a great part time flying gig. Not so much for the retirement. How does Delta differ from SW if you were flying domestic NB? Is it just less hops with longer layovers ? Thanks for the info. Some really good posts recently and a huge reason I’ve enjoyed following this thread since I was applying 5 years ago. Now that I’ve picked my poison I enjoy learning the details of life at the other carriers. One of the frequent things I heard in my Guard unit was how SWA flew regional schedules in the Guppy, i.e. 6 legs per day with min overnights in between. There have been some occasions I’ve done 5 legs (never seen 6), but just as many I’ve done 1. My logbook says I average 2-3 legs per day. Talking to guys from the other majors I’ve concluded that it’s really not any different than NB domestic elsewhere. Everyone’s got unique work rules, some better, some worse, but it really just averages out to be about the same (including earning potential). The bigger knock on SWA is obviously the lack of opportunity to mix it up, see different destinations while making more efficient pay in WBs, etc. SWA flying’s been the easiest thing in the world but still interesting enough to keep me entertained…but will I still feel that way in 20 years? Doesn’t matter, I’m stuck anyways! So really the question is do you prefer to drive to work for your career or commute to be able to keep the door open for what could be more fulfilling opportunities down the line? It’s a good dilemma to have. 1
Springer Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 On 10/23/2021 at 10:03 PM, HuggyU2 said: https://www.rtag.org/events/annual-2021-rtag-convention Gees, I see Kit Darby's name in the line up. He's been in that business since '78 I believe when he founded FAPA (Future Airline Pilot Association).
Springer Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 On 10/27/2021 at 7:50 PM, Ryder1587 said: Wide body and international flying. What are your opinions based on experience? Obviously you’ll make more money long term. Pros. Cons. Has anyone been able to bid this and stayed NB and just done domestic flying ? You really limit your options with SWA vs DAL. I tried international for 2 years, ie 4 ocean crossings in 6 days with no augmentation (old days) and could never get enough sleep. Others loved it and I probably would have too if I got a 2 hr rest break. As for narrow body pay, how hard do want to work? I have stated it elsewhere, my bro-in-law retired last Jan from DAL as a 320CA and worked the system (green slips). In his last 3 yrs made $500K, $500K, $602K.
FLEA Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 3 hours ago, Springer said: Gees, I see Kit Darby's name in the line up. He's been in that business since '78 I believe when he founded FAPA (Future Airline Pilot Association). He was actually reviewing resumes for free. I had him look at mine and he definitely had a more nuanced approach than the prep companies there doing the same. He said he used to be a Capt for Delta and United I think.
ClearedHot Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 10 minutes ago, FLEA said: He was actually reviewing resumes for free. I had him look at mine and he definitely had a more nuanced approach than the prep companies there doing the same. He said he used to be a Capt for Delta and United I think. I did the CTP course with Kit in 2016, nice guy. Reviewed my resume and provided some good inputs.
StoleIt Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 Just finished indoc at American. They are definitely hooking up the mil guys who had CJOs & class dates that got COVID'd. To my surprise, we are getting full benefits...so I now have a seniority date, pay date, travel benefits, and hacked my 401k clock. So now when I get off AD I'll start at AAL with damn near year 3 seniority and pay. I'm pinching myself. 3
Doc Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 On 10/28/2021 at 10:26 PM, HuggyU2 said: If you want dress up and play airline pilot, then get ready for a ed up career. Nominee for Top 10 Baseops quotes of all-time. Can confirm. Reference point: 21 yrs AD/21 yrs airline Cheers!
BashiChuni Posted November 1, 2021 Posted November 1, 2021 alright for the brain trust...WWYD...stay at DAL (1st year) and commute (living in DFW) or go to AA and eventually live in base at DFW? good problems to have!
FourFans Posted November 1, 2021 Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) On 10/28/2021 at 9:26 PM, HuggyU2 said: I'll have 28+ years at United when I retire, and I will not be able to hold a widebody leftseat based on current projections. ... If you want to dress up and play airline pilot, then get ready for a fucked up career. Any long-term cargo dudes want to chime in? From what I can see, it sounds like cargo and pax are two completely different worlds right now. edit: I'm just now starting at Brown. I've read the APC side, but I have a different respect for the views expressed here. Edited November 1, 2021 by FourFans130 more words
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