The new airline thread

[ImNotARobot]

FedEx v UPS

Unless you find someone who has worked at both, realize you are going to get a biased perspective for each job. This is just one pilot's perspective, YMMV.

I agree with the assertion that Memphis is an absolute warzone, unfit for raising a family, much less safely getting to work. 100% no-go for in-domicile living; it's just a place I endure until training is over. When I'm turning through Memphis, I'm staying at the hub in a sleep room for a few hours. I've heard from both company and union that 70% of FedEx pilots are commuters. The reasons for that are not only the horrific daily violence in Memphis, but it's the trip construction that allows ease of commuting. The 777 on one end is the extreme international-only option, usually one large trip, meaning one commute to work per month. On the other end is the 757, with potential for many small day-long trips, multiple blocks of off time, requiring multiple commutes to domicile. The MD/76/Bus are somewhere in the middle.

Commuting into either FDX/UPS is a totally different animal than the pax world. At FedEx, there is no seniority booking of jumpseats (JS). The jumpseat is YOURS if you book it. When I attempt to select a JS that is full, I have no idea whether it's filled with JetBlue pilots or FedEx pilots. It honestly doesn't matter...those pilots have been guaranteed a ride to work/home. The mitigation:  FedEx pilots are able to book the JS 3 weeks out; all offline JSers only get the week prior. So we have the opportunity to book anything we want before it fills up. It's location dependent, but generally speaking, FDX JSs are not that difficult to book on a regular basis. There are a few hot spots, like Seattle, Denver, South Florida (where rich airline Capts live) that are more difficult, but certainly not impossible. I also agree with Prozac WRT to UPS weekend JSs. After the last sort on Saturday morning, there is a huge deadzone for jumpseats until the Mon night sort. So the opportunity to weekend commute in jeans/tennis shoes on FDX is near zero depending on location.

But that is only one way to commute to work. We also have a travel bank system for deadheads (DH). To clarify, a DH is a positioning/depositioning leg on another airline (wearing business casual v jeans/tennis shoes). A jumpseat is when I book myself on FDX to travel. There have been some exceptions to this during COVID, but let's not digress into irrelevancies. So hypothetically, I'm MEM-based, but I live in random city XYZ. On paper for pay, all my trips must begin/end in domicile. It's entirely possible that the revenue legs for my trip are cities (ABC-DEF-MEM-DEF-GHI). But the trip on paper will look like (MEM-all the cities with rev legs-MEM). So commuters "deviate" each end of that trip. Meaning I'm not going to MEM simply to take Delta from MEM to city ABC where my trip starts. Published in the pairing (pairing=trip) is the actual cost of that Delta ticket, paid by FedEx.

If I deviate that leg, telling FedEx that I'm not going to be on that Delta flight, the cost of that ticket is deposited in my travel bank. This money was real when FedEx was going to pay Delta, but it will never be paid to me outright. I can use this money to book air or ground transportation from any city to get to city ABC where my trip starts. You can book on any airline you choose, or even a limo service to have a Cadillac show up in your driveway to take you to work if your travel bank allows it. Once some seniority is realized, a pilot can potentially bid hometown lines...living in city XYZ, and bidding trips that operate XYZ-ABC-DEF-XYZ. This pilot will be at home in XYZ, being paid for the layover on each end of the trip.

I know this sounds confusing, but once you're living it, it makes a lot of sense. It's a highly flexible position for the pilot. There are some rules on when you can spend the travel bank (within 3 days of a trip), and the money can expire too. Here's one to really bake your noodle. Let's say I've saved up $10k in my travel bank, and my wife and I are going to Paris. As long as I have a FedEx trip within 3 days of my personal travel to Paris, I can spend that $10k on PERSONAL TRAVEL that is not affiliated with the FedEx trip at all. So I can spend my airline miles to get her into business class, and I can outright buy my business class ticket with FedEx money. All perfectly legal. That's another thing I forgot to mention, airline status. When FedEx is buying all these tickets on Delta/American/United/Foreign carriers/etc, my personal frequent flyer number is automatically linked to that ticket purchase. Any intl leg over 2.5h block must be in business/first, and 5h block sequence domestically must be booked in first. So to the airline, it looks like I'm the big spender, accruing points at a fantastic rate. Because I am. 🙂

PreF, I gather you're going to live in the southern half of Indiana...that makes the domicile choice between FDX IND and UPS SDF a literal coin flip. You can drive to either of them. I wouldn't consider that a variable. IND is FedEx's #2 domestic hub, where every airplane is represented with IND DHs. After about the first year, you'll be off reserve and able to bid a fair amount (if not all) IND DHs. So you'd be MEM on paper but actually driving to/from IND as I described above with city XYZ.

That's a quick primer on commuting at FedEx. WRT to your other concern, Fred Smith vs Raj, everything I know about Raj so far--he's a fireplug who isn't waiting for a handout. There is a reason Fred chose him to nurture his baby. Only time will tell, but I haven't heard anything about Raj that gives me pause. And when you talk about culture, FedEx had some of the worst culture in the industry in the 80s/90s--crashing airplanes because the d!ickhead Capt was king. Thankfully that culture has become more CRM-centric. There are always a few turds in every punchbowl, but that's not FedEx-specific. Nine of of ten Capts are just older versions of myself, which is terrifying enough!

Go with questions.

[SocialD]

6 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2022/07/20/pilot-walks-off-plane-and-abandons-passengers-because-he-had-a-fight-with-the-co-pilot-before-takeoff/
 

An important case study in CRM. 

 

 

Wow, I've flown with some real pieces of work, but never someone so bad that I'd walk off the plane at an outstation.  I've had to tell one to kindly go fuck himself (in a more PC way) and dude never bothered me again, even on subsequent flights (if there are any DAL DTW330 guys, it was Joe...).  Would love to know the full story on that one!  

Edited July 20, 2022 by SocialD

[TreeA10]

8 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2022/07/20/pilot-walks-off-plane-and-abandons-passengers-because-he-had-a-fight-with-the-co-pilot-before-takeoff/
 

An important case study in CRM. 

Sitting reserve, I get called out for exactly that same thing but it was the FO that walked. 

[Prefontaine]

On 7/20/2022 at 9:59 AM, ImNotARobot said:

FedEx v UPS

Unless you find someone who has worked at both, realize you are going to get a biased perspective for each job. This is just one pilot's perspective, YMMV.

I agree with the assertion that Memphis is an absolute warzone, unfit for raising a family, much less safely getting to work. 100% no-go for in-domicile living; it's just a place I endure until training is over. When I'm turning through Memphis, I'm staying at the hub in a sleep room for a few hours. I've heard from both company and union that 70% of FedEx pilots are commuters. The reasons for that are not only the horrific daily violence in Memphis, but it's the trip construction that allows ease of commuting. The 777 on one end is the extreme international-only option, usually one large trip, meaning one commute to work per month. On the other end is the 757, with potential for many small day-long trips, multiple blocks of off time, requiring multiple commutes to domicile. The MD/76/Bus are somewhere in the middle.

Commuting into either FDX/UPS is a totally different animal than the pax world. At FedEx, there is no seniority booking of jumpseats (JS). The jumpseat is YOURS if you book it. When I attempt to select a JS that is full, I have no idea whether it's filled with JetBlue pilots or FedEx pilots. It honestly doesn't matter...those pilots have been guaranteed a ride to work/home. The mitigation:  FedEx pilots are able to book the JS 3 weeks out; all offline JSers only get the week prior. So we have the opportunity to book anything we want before it fills up. It's location dependent, but generally speaking, FDX JSs are not that difficult to book on a regular basis. There are a few hot spots, like Seattle, Denver, South Florida (where rich airline Capts live) that are more difficult, but certainly not impossible. I also agree with Prozac WRT to UPS weekend JSs. After the last sort on Saturday morning, there is a huge deadzone for jumpseats until the Mon night sort. So the opportunity to weekend commute in jeans/tennis shoes on FDX is near zero depending on location.

But that is only one way to commute to work. We also have a travel bank system for deadheads (DH). To clarify, a DH is a positioning/depositioning leg on another airline (wearing business casual v jeans/tennis shoes). A jumpseat is when I book myself on FDX to travel. There have been some exceptions to this during COVID, but let's not digress into irrelevancies. So hypothetically, I'm MEM-based, but I live in random city XYZ. On paper for pay, all my trips must begin/end in domicile. It's entirely possible that the revenue legs for my trip are cities (ABC-DEF-MEM-DEF-GHI). But the trip on paper will look like (MEM-all the cities with rev legs-MEM). So commuters "deviate" each end of that trip. Meaning I'm not going to MEM simply to take Delta from MEM to city ABC where my trip starts. Published in the pairing (pairing=trip) is the actual cost of that Delta ticket, paid by FedEx.

If I deviate that leg, telling FedEx that I'm not going to be on that Delta flight, the cost of that ticket is deposited in my travel bank. This money was real when FedEx was going to pay Delta, but it will never be paid to me outright. I can use this money to book air or ground transportation from any city to get to city ABC where my trip starts. You can book on any airline you choose, or even a limo service to have a Cadillac show up in your driveway to take you to work if your travel bank allows it. Once some seniority is realized, a pilot can potentially bid hometown lines...living in city XYZ, and bidding trips that operate XYZ-ABC-DEF-XYZ. This pilot will be at home in XYZ, being paid for the layover on each end of the trip.

I know this sounds confusing, but once you're living it, it makes a lot of sense. It's a highly flexible position for the pilot. There are some rules on when you can spend the travel bank (within 3 days of a trip), and the money can expire too. Here's one to really bake your noodle. Let's say I've saved up $10k in my travel bank, and my wife and I are going to Paris. As long as I have a FedEx trip within 3 days of my personal travel to Paris, I can spend that $10k on PERSONAL TRAVEL that is not affiliated with the FedEx trip at all. So I can spend my airline miles to get her into business class, and I can outright buy my business class ticket with FedEx money. All perfectly legal. That's another thing I forgot to mention, airline status. When FedEx is buying all these tickets on Delta/American/United/Foreign carriers/etc, my personal frequent flyer number is automatically linked to that ticket purchase. Any intl leg over 2.5h block must be in business/first, and 5h block sequence domestically must be booked in first. So to the airline, it looks like I'm the big spender, accruing points at a fantastic rate. Because I am. 🙂

PreF, I gather you're going to live in the southern half of Indiana...that makes the domicile choice between FDX IND and UPS SDF a literal coin flip. You can drive to either of them. I wouldn't consider that a variable. IND is FedEx's #2 domestic hub, where every airplane is represented with IND DHs. After about the first year, you'll be off reserve and able to bid a fair amount (if not all) IND DHs. So you'd be MEM on paper but actually driving to/from IND as I described above with city XYZ.

That's a quick primer on commuting at FedEx. WRT to your other concern, Fred Smith vs Raj, everything I know about Raj so far--he's a fireplug who isn't waiting for a handout. There is a reason Fred chose him to nurture his baby. Only time will tell, but I haven't heard anything about Raj that gives me pause. And when you talk about culture, FedEx had some of the worst culture in the industry in the 80s/90s--crashing airplanes because the d!ickhead Capt was king. Thankfully that culture has become more CRM-centric. There are always a few turds in every punchbowl, but that's not FedEx-specific. Nine of of ten Capts are just older versions of myself, which is terrifying enough!

Go with questions.

That write-up was excellent, thank you. No questions!

[AirGuardianC141747]

This is an extremely odd example: For years we had a serial complainer who consistently wrote up Capts and a few FO’s or crew as a whole for the slightest friction or unsubstantiated events the individual regarded as slander or whatever towards them. Even walked up to the flat deck and upon hearing the subject matter being discussed just left telling no one except for the company why… Basically this individual was attempting to create a series of issues to draw from and possibly squeeze the company for retribution $. The individuals name spread like wildfire fortunately. Although it took some time, a pink slip ended that debacle.

Unfortunately due to the current times I have witnessed several Capt briefs prior to departure stating that “Politics, Religion and background discussions in regards to a persons origin is off limits.” At this point I don’t necessarily disagree with this as a CYA measure, but how far we have come or not… Adult discussions are over due to squeaky wheel consequences, some valid many are not.

*Having stated “origin” earlier: Female Capt asked an FO where he was from due to her interest in the family name (I myself am very interested in unique names and history). FO’s response said that was inappropriate to ask and HR rules dictated this. I was floored as we have one of the most if not the most diverse background pilot groups on most any account. Normally a very informative and interesting learning point has turned into a very delicate bubble wrap situation. 

**I normally assess the crew quickly during meet and greet which exposes a lot of character (Proper respect to the Capt and each other is easy to gauge). Then during the delegation of workload it becomes more evident and normally the final measure is keeping an awareness to catering etiquette and how that pans out. Definitely other tells, but the above are fairly easy to ascertain. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by AirGuardianC141747

[SocialD]

6 hours ago, AirGuardianC141747 said:

*Having stated “origin” earlier: Female Capt asked an FO where he was from due to her interest in the family name (I myself am very interested in unique names and history). FO’s response said that was inappropriate to ask and HR rules dictated this.

 

 

This is what happens when we cater to the kids who got beat up on the playground...they're now running HR. Since my move to the left seat, I've thankfully only ran into one FO that I was glad we only had one, short leg together.  She was a SJW type who clearly hated old, white men (good thing I'm not 40 yet lol).  A vast majority of the pilots out there are great to chat with, but there are the occasional odd balls that you're ready to be done with.  

[Danger41]

1 hour ago, SocialD said:

 

 

This is what happens when we cater to the kids who got beat up on the playground...they're now running HR. Since my move to the left seat, I've thankfully only ran into one FO that I was glad we only had one, short leg together.  She was a SJW type who clearly hated old, white men (good thing I'm not 40 yet lol).  A vast majority of the pilots out there are great to chat with, but there are the occasional odd balls that you're ready to be done with.  

Is there any kind of mechanism to say you don’t want to fly with certain people anymore?

[SurelySerious]

Is there any kind of mechanism to say you don’t want to fly with certain people anymore?

FOs will have a no-fly list. CAs kind of get stuck typically.

[SocialD]

2 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Is there any kind of mechanism to say you don’t want to fly with certain people anymore?

 

What serious said.  At DAL anyway, FO's can bid to avoid certain employee numbers.  I've never actually bid to avoid anyone because I'm not going to let one asshole take away any of my bidding power.  I have heard of Captains telling FO's to add him to their no-fly list lol.  

[JeremiahWeed]

12 hours ago, Danger41 said:

Is there any kind of mechanism to say you don’t want to fly with certain people anymore?

At FedEx we used to have the ability to create a "negative airman list".  Essentially a list of the pilots you didn't want to fly with.  If your awarded schedule came up with one of the folks on your list, the system would bypass and you got your next choice.

Now it gets funny.  Of course, the same 5% minority of clowns were showing up on everyone's list.  The FedEx lawyers start pondering this system and decided it's a bad idea.  They didn't like having a consistent list of problem children being created each month by a group of competent professionals whose judgement is respected and well paid.  Bzzzt to the negative airman list.

Now the Captain's bid are published Tuesday and the FO's bid's are delayed 24-hours.  This allows them to manually de-conflict if they find someone they'd rather not fly with on their bid with no paper trail for the lawyers to worry about.  As Serious said, Captain's are stuck with who they get.  But, it seems the majority of the pilots who have a list are FO's, so it probably works out most of the time.

Edited July 25, 2022 by JeremiahWeed

[HossHarris]

Captains, as full fledged CRM ninjas, should be able to fly competently with anyone. 
 

That’s the explanation I was given as to why captains don’t get to bid to avoid people. 
 

also prolly because their bids get run first … so the FOs are unknown at the time 

[Scooter14]

 
I have heard of Captains telling FO's to add him to their no-fly list lol.  

Awkward

FO- “Parking checklist complete. Good flying with ya, maybe I’ll see you on another trip soon!”

CA - “Yeah, about that. Here’s my employee number. Do me a favor would ya…”

[Danger41]

Anyone have any good stories on this front? I’ve flown with some dummies over the years that are oddballs but never to this level. The thing that drives me absolutely insane is the guy who harps on CRM all the time but uses that as a crutch to be bad at his job because someone is backing him up. Had a couple of those (military only) but very few and far between.

[SurelySerious]

https://roy.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/roy.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/Roy_Let%20Experienced%20Pilots%20Fly%20Act_FINAL.pdf

What a turd piece of legislation Graham and Roy cooked up. You’d think that congress that has an average age of 96 would be acutely aware of the insidious mental decline at advanced ages that the FAA Class 1 can’t account for.

[SurelySerious]

Anyone have any good stories on this front? I’ve flown with some dummies over the years that are oddballs but never to this level. The thing that drives me absolutely insane is the guy who harps on CRM all the time but uses that as a crutch to be bad at his job because someone is backing him up. Had a couple of those (military only) but very few and far between.

Nothing exciting really that I’ve seen: one just extremely unpleasant guy who called every female on the radio a dumb bitch or whiny bitch in cockpit conversation (plus didn’t understand LNAV/VNAV system which got us questionable at one point when he changed modes on me while I was PF), and another guy that again didn’t understand LNAV/VNAV and continually reached across the cockpit to with my automation modes while I was PF and put us in a precarious clearance compliance position by doing so. Neither were instructional situations nor were they check airmen, nor did they properly take the airplane. Did the pro standards dance, but not people I care to deal with again at this pay rate.

[NKAWTG]

21 hours ago, SurelySerious said:

https://roy.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/roy.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/Roy_Let%20Experienced%20Pilots%20Fly%20Act_FINAL.pdf

What a turd piece of legislation Graham and Roy cooked up. You’d think that congress that has an average age of 96 would be acutely aware of the insidious mental decline at advanced ages that the FAA Class 1 can’t account for.

Last time they raised the age going into a recession, it set back the profession  by 5 years.  Those who would have retired can sit at the top of the seniority list longer, or more likely, collect long term disability for another couple of years.  It will also allow the regional pipeline to catch up.

For everyone else, they stay put for two more years, either in seat, at the regionals, or still in the military.  Will continue to discourage entry into the profession when it goes another 2 years without hiring.  It's perfect kind of legislation these days, where it has the appearance of helping, while making it worse in the long run.     

 

[SocialD]

1 hour ago, NKAWTG said:

Last time they raised the age going into a recession, it set back the profession  by 5 years.  Those who would have retired can sit at the top of the seniority list longer, or more likely, collect long term disability for another couple of years.  It will also allow the regional pipeline to catch up.

For everyone else, they stay put for two more years, either in seat, at the regionals, or still in the military.  Will continue to discourage entry into the profession when it goes another 2 years without hiring.  It's perfect kind of legislation these days, where it has the appearance of helping, while making it worse in the long run.     

 

 

 

I'd prefer it stay 65, but I honestly don't see it having all that big of an impact on movement.  At DAL, they say the average age of a retiree is now ~62.5.  Lots don't want to, or likely won't be able to work to age 65.  I'd have to imagine the number of dudes actually flying the line until age 67 would be fairly minuscule, though it won't be zero, so it has an impact.  One huge plus, is getting disability until age 67.  Right now, our contract simply says you get disability until retirement age, so for many, that means 2 more years of a damn good disability benefit.  

 

All that said, moving from age 60 to 65 made sense because it aligned us with ICAO and most of the rest of the world.  So unless ICAO (more importantly every other nation) changes their age limit, I can't imagine why we would do that.  It really doesn't seem like it would have the intended impact.  Never-mind the nightmare it would create wrt to seniority/bidding if none of the other nations follow suit. 

[Smokin]

Agreed, the retirement age change would really be more of a player for disability than anything else.  Unless they change the physical, I doubt that many pilots are going to be both able to pass and still want to fly.  I would bet the vast majority of the guys in the 65-67 age class would be on disability and thus be irrelevant to hiring needs and seniority.

 

I only had one CA on my no fly list.  He was just angry at the world, yelled all the time (never yelled at me or the FAs, but at the controllers, scheduling, taxis, etc), and was just very unpleasant to be around.  Life is too short to voluntarily be assigned with a guy like that again.  One plus side to being an FO.

[JeremiahWeed]

On 7/25/2022 at 7:36 PM, Danger41 said:

Anyone have any good stories on this front? I’ve flown with some dummies over the years that are oddballs but never to this level. The thing that drives me absolutely insane is the guy who harps on CRM all the time but uses that as a crutch to be bad at his job because someone is backing him up. Had a couple of those (military only) but very few and far between.

Yeah, I got some stories............

First, I’ll say (in my opinion) the FO’s job is to be a tolerant chameleon, when necessary, which is usually infrequent.  When I was an FO, I did that pretty well.  I’m not suggesting a Captain gets to bring all levels of crazy, non-standard BS to the trip.  However, some of the stories of conflict I’ve heard are just as much the FO’s fault for being unwilling (as opposed to unable) to flex and just get along.  The one thing you never do is take your issues to management.  You don’t put a fellow pilot’s job on the line over a dispute of any kind.  The first option is man to man, face to face.  If you can’t solve it that way, then the next stop is professional standards with the union.  Ratting someone out to the company is really bad form.  The bottom line is, if you’re an FO, let shit go and chill.  The entertainment value of some of these guys is top notch.  You’ll miss out if you bail too early.

 I never kept a “list”.  I usually heard about these guys after I flew with them.  Then I’d usually be asking, why didn’t someone warn me about this guy?  Trust me, they were all on everyone’s list if they had one.  After 23 years of doing this, I’ve got some doozies.  I’ll start with “The Most Interesting Captain in the World”

Standard 2-week around the world 777 trip at FedEx.  At some point in the first few days, Captain Fantastic informs me that at some point in the late 1990’s, he had the lead role as the Phantom in the Phantom of the Opera on Broadway.  Before he could begin his performances, he “blew his vocal cords out”, needed surgery and lost the part.  I know it may seem stupid in hindsight, but I had no reason to question this and wasn’t in the frame of mind to wave the BS flag.  In fact, the first instinct I had was thinking my kids (all musical theater performers) were going to be excited to hear that I flew with someone who was almost on Broadway.  Of course, I asked if FedEx had agreed to give him a leave of absence to do this since that’s kind of a full-time job with multiple shows daily.  He explained all that away and we moved on.

The next one was, as a high school student, he discovered some DNA thing that had the potential to cure cancer.  He didn’t have a PhD after his name, so no one took him seriously and he didn’t get any credit.  I don’t know shit about DNA and it was early in the trip so I was still in “gee whiz, that’s pretty interesting” mode.

The days continued and I heard about him getting the Arch Bishop of his church fired over a sermon topic, being a studio musician for various famous performers (this guy’ s cool, that guy’s an asshole, etc.) and his 80’s band that toured with and opened for Journey.  They had a record deal but their drummer quit to get married and it fell through.  I asked about the band name, etc. and did some online research but no joy.  But it was the 80’s and they didn’t make it, so why would the interwebs have anything?  Still semi-clueless and not being much of a talker myself, I’m just plugging along – warning bells haven’t started yet.

As a side note, one day he starts going off about the full body scanners in use around the world.  His doctor has warned him in the strongest terms never to accept them since we would be scanned so much more often than the average traveler.  No shit – less than 24-hours later, we’re going through security in Osaka at o-dark-thirty and they try to make us go through one of those things.  Amazing.  I’ve been through KIX hundreds of times over that last 15 years and never – not once – have I every had to go through anything other than the normal metal detector for crews.  Of course, it’s an absolute shit-show.  This guy is getting badge numbers and asking for supervisors and threatening job loss – the whole shooting match.  Of course, the Japs are sucking air through clenched teeth, avoiding eye contact and in full disengage mode trying to deal with the cray-cray American.  They eventually plug in the normal machine; we walk through that and go on our way.  He had big plans to write the whole thing up and maybe he did.  I never heard a thing about it after that.

There used to be a well-known interview process at Delta involving a psychiatric evaluation.  From what I understand, the doctor doing the interviews eventually took his own life.  Apparently, back in the day, Captain Fantastic threw his hat in the ring with Delta and got interviewed.  His ability to parry and counter this psychiatrist’s questions during the evaluation were so clever and unnerving that the doctor eventually gave up in complete frustration.  It was not long after this interview that the poor chap did himself in.  Yes folks, our Captain was in fact, fully responsible for the death of the Delta doctor.

By this point in the trip, I was a bit numb to the whole thing and it had been so much that I wasn’t really paying that much attention anymore.  But I wouldn’t say the lightbulb had come on over my head quite yet.  I know – I’m a dumbass.  I am a music fan though and while we were waiting for an ATC delay in Shenzhen, we got talking again.  We’re sitting #1 by the runway waiting to be released and somehow Jim Croce’s name comes up.  You know – the guy who sang “Bad, Bad Leroy Brown”.  Yeah – I know some of you don’t know it.  Fucking youngsters.  Google it.  It’s 70’s folk/pop music. 

But the point is, that our Captain decides to tell me that “I used to play with Jim”.  Now my radar finally comes out of test and I’m starting to really scan.  I saw our hero’s birthday on the Gen Dec multiple times that trip.  The most amazing Captain was born in 1961.  I knew Croce died in a plane crash in the early 70’s so I looked it up when I got to my room that night.  1973.   Mutherfucker!!  So, you played with ole’ Jim when you were 12, huh?

Yup – he got me.  I guess I try to take people at face value.  But I gotta say, if I was still an FO, I’d fly with him again just for the entertainment value.  I’d love to be able to egg him on and see how far I could get him to go.  Point being, not all the crazies are worth avoiding.  Think of all the stories you’d miss out on.

Edited July 27, 2022 by JeremiahWeed

[TreeA10]

I've heard there was an AA CA based at SFO that had so many DO NOT PAIR First Officers that the CA was asked to leave the base and fly elsewhere. 

In my 23 years at AA, the only thing I've come close to was a call out on reserve for a MD-80 trip. The CA was a former TWA guy and the FO was a former Reno CA and not happy about playing second fiddle. Verbal hostility erupted and the second leg of the trip and the CA booted the FO. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by TreeA10

[Prozac]

12 hours ago, JeremiahWeed said:

Yeah, I got some stories............

 

First, I’ll say (in my opinion) the FO’s job is to be a tolerant chameleon, when necessary, which is usually infrequent.  When I was an FO, I did that pretty well.  I’m not suggesting a Captain gets to bring all levels of crazy, non-standard BS to the trip.  However, some of the stories of conflict I’ve heard are just as much the FO’s fault for being unwilling (as opposed to unable) to flex and just get along.  The one thing you never do is take your issues to management.  You don’t put a fellow pilot’s job on the line over a dispute of any kind.  The first option is man to man, face to face.  If you can’t solve it that way, then the next stop is professional standards with the union.  Ratting someone out to the company is really bad form.  The bottom line is, if you’re an FO, let shit go and chill.  The entertainment value of some of these guys is top notch.  You’ll miss out if you bail too early.

 

 I never kept a “list”.  I usually heard about these guys after I flew with them.  Then I’d usually be asking, why didn’t someone warn me about this guy?  Trust me, they were all on everyone’s list if they had one.  After 23 years of doing this, I’ve got some doozies.  I’ll start with “The Most Interesting Captain in the World”

 

Standard 2-week around the world 777 trip at FedEx.  At some point in the first few days, Captain Fantastic informs me that at some point in the late 1990’s, he had the lead role as the Phantom in the Phantom of the Opera on Broadway.  Before he could begin his performances, he “blew his vocal cords out”, needed surgery and lost the part.  I know it may seem stupid in hindsight, but I had no reason to question this and wasn’t in the frame of mind to wave the BS flag.  In fact, the first instinct I had was thinking my kids (all musical theater performers) were going to be excited to hear that I flew with someone who was almost on Broadway.  Of course, I asked if FedEx had agreed to give him a leave of absence to do this since that’s kind of a full-time job with multiple shows daily.  He explained all that away and we moved on.

 

The next one was, as a high school student, he discovered some DNA thing that had the potential to cure cancer.  He didn’t have a PhD after his name, so no one took him seriously and he didn’t get any credit.  I don’t know shit about DNA and it was early in the trip so I was still in “gee whiz, that’s pretty interesting” mode.

 

The days continued and I heard about him getting the Arch Bishop of his church fired over a sermon topic, being a studio musician for various famous performers (this guy’ s cool, that guy’s an asshole, etc.) and his 80’s band that toured with and opened for Journey.  They had a record deal but their drummer quit to get married and it fell through.  I asked about the band name, etc. and did some online research but no joy.  But it was the 80’s and they didn’t make it, so why would the interwebs have anything?  Still semi-clueless and not being much of a talker myself, I’m just plugging along – warning bells haven’t started yet.

 

As a side note, one day he starts going off about the full body scanners in use around the world.  His doctor has warned him in the strongest terms never to accept them since we would be scanned so much more often than the average traveler.  No shit – less than 24-hours later, we’re going through security in Osaka at o-dark-thirty and they try to make us go through one of those things.  Amazing.  I’ve been through KIX hundreds of times over that last 15 years and never – not once – have I every had to go through anything other than the normal metal detector for crews.  Of course, it’s an absolute shit-show.  This guy is getting badge numbers and asking for supervisors and threatening job loss – the whole shooting match.  Of course, the Japs are sucking air through clenched teeth, avoiding eye contact and in full disengage mode trying to deal with the cray-cray American.  They eventually plug in the normal machine; we walk through that and go on our way.  He had big plans to write the whole thing up and maybe he did.  I never heard a thing about it after that.

 

There used to be a well-known interview process at Delta involving a psychiatric evaluation.  From what I understand, the doctor doing the interviews eventually took his own life.  Apparently, back in the day, Captain Fantastic threw his hat in the ring with Delta and got interviewed.  His ability to parry and counter this psychiatrist’s questions during the evaluation were so clever and unnerving that the doctor eventually gave up in complete frustration.  It was not long after this interview that the poor chap did himself in.  Yes folks, our Captain was in fact, fully responsible for the death of the Delta doctor.

 

By this point in the trip, I was a bit numb to the whole thing and it had been so much that I wasn’t really paying that much attention anymore.  But I wouldn’t say the lightbulb had come on over my head quite yet.  I know – I’m a dumbass.  I am a music fan though and while we were waiting for an ATC delay in Shenzhen, we got talking again.  We’re sitting #1 by the runway waiting to be released and somehow Jim Croce’s name comes up.  You know – the guy who sang “Bad, Bad Leroy Brown”.  Yeah – I know some of you don’t know it.  Fucking youngsters.  Google it.  It’s 70’s folk/pop music. 

 

But the point is, that our Captain decides to tell me that “I used to play with Jim”.  Now my radar finally comes out of test and I’m starting to really scan.  I saw our hero’s birthday on the Gen Dec multiple times that trip.  The most amazing Captain was born in 1961.  I knew Croce died in a plane crash in the early 70’s so I looked it up when I got to my room that night.  1973.   Mutherfucker!!  So, you played with ole’ Jim when you were 12, huh?

 

Yup – he got me.  I guess I try to take people at face value.  But I gotta say, if I was still an FO, I’d fly with him again just for the entertainment value.  I’d love to be able to egg him on and see how far I could get him to go.  Point being, not all the crazies are worth avoiding.  Think of all the stories you’d miss out on.

First paragraph is Spot. On. We had a real motley crew of true old school freight dawgs at a previous carrier. A few of the captains were legendary, some no kidding, some only in their own minds, and some more along the lines of notorious. I was warned on a few occasions before starting trips with some of them that I should consider a “tactical” sick call. I never fell back on that particular technique and I’m glad I didn’t. As JW said above, the entertainment value alone is often worth the price of admission. On a more serious note, a big part of the job is being professional enough to operate with just about anyone. Unless there is a legitimate safety concern, how hard can it be to occasionally smile and nod and raise the gear or extend the flaps when Captain America asks you to? 

[JeremiahWeed]

The next one takes place about 18 months before the Most Interesting Captain trip.  I’m only 6 months on the 777 at the time and this latest Captain is absolutely notorious with the 777 FOs.  Since I’m a relatively new arrival to the jet, I am uninformed and go into the trip “cludo”.

The first leg is one of the worst in the system with an 0400 takeoff to fly almost 7 hours from MEM to Anchorage as a two-man crew.  Toothpicks holding eyes open, I’m willing to listen to whatever in order to try to stay awake.  I get an earful as Captain Player describes the full-scale domestic disturbance that played out the night before he left on this trip.  Cops at the house, he’s detained, wife kicks him out, no idea if he’s got a place to live when he gets back – classic Jerry Springer shit.  Jeez dude, that sucks – I hope it works out, etc. etc.  You okay to fly this trip?  He says getting away for a while is probably the best thing.  I try not to spin the guy up more than he is, but I’m thinking if I was in deep serious with the old lady to the extent that the po-po are involved and my future habitation in my residence is in question, leaving town with her having free reign with the checkbook and every available attorney in the area has serious potential to end poorly.  Whatever, his call.

We limp into ANC and I don’t see him for the next 24 hours until we’re leaving for Narita.  Not surprised he’s out of contact considering the shit storm he’s dealing with at home.  We leave the hotel and he appears to be in high spirits.  Another 2-pilot leg at 7:30 block, but the sun is up the whole way and we’re well rested.  He’s still pretty bummed about the home situation but he’s been talking to the wife and she’s willing to listen.  “I’m just worried about being able to see my kids.  I really hope we can work this out, blah, blah.”  A while later, we’re 4-5 hours into the north pacific crossing and he starts telling me about his plans for a “sex vacation” to Trinidad and Tobago.  “Oh, dude, it’s awesome.  You land and they show up in a Range Rover, take you to the compound and you pick your chick for the week out of a line-up.  It’s just sex, food, booze by the pool for the week.  All inclusive.”  🙄

I’m thinking – what happened to the guy worried about his kids and trying to reconcile with his wife?  So, like a dumbass, I open my pie hole.  “Do you think the sex vacation is the best idea considering all the shit going on at home?”  “Oh…. Yeah…. Maybe you’re right. 

Maybe??? 🥴

After 2.5 days in Narita (where I saw this guy zero seconds), we spend the next few days and two flights banging around short haul in Asia.  Over the course of those flights, I get schooled on every city in our system that offers any opportunity to pay for sex.  “You gotta try Pasha’s in Cologne… Go to this place in Dubai, I think I have a card………I hope we get revised to go to Singapore.  I’ll take you to the 4-floors of whores there.  It’s awesome – the higher the floor the more expensive and hotter the chicks are.  If you every have any questions about where to go, shoot me a text, I’ll hook you up.”  Now I’m pretty sure why I’m not seeing this guy on any of our layovers.  I feel like I’m flying with Jeckel and Hyde.  I never know if I’m gonna get crazy sex monger or bummed out dad/husband trying to keep the family together.

The other comical aspect of this guy is that I don’t think he owns a mirror – or at least hasn’t used one in the last 15 years. 👴 I think most of us who are getting up in the years have that occasional loss of SA where we forget that we are invisible to every chick under the age of 40?......45?.......50?   Not sure where the cutoff is.  We have our new super-power of invisibility and we just need to embrace it.  The hot chick in the grocery store parking lot isn’t smiling at you because she’s interested.  She either thinks you look like her dad, needs help cuz her car won’t start or is completely broke and might be willing to make your day for a hundo.

This guy is 64 if he’s a day and he looks every year of it.  Yet, he still thinks he’s Captain Player.  He’s been part of the international travel scene for so long that he’s forgotten that the only reason he’s getting attention in Asia, the Middle East or Europe is chicks dig the size of his wallet 💰.  He actually pulls up to the chick in the Ferrari at the stop light and gives her a wink thinking something might come of it, the whole time forgetting that he’s effectively sitting in the human equivalent of a mini-van.

So, now we’re doing long haul from Narita to Paris.  I get the pleasure of his company for almost 4-hours, then a break in the bunk and then almost 3 hours more.  For the 4-hour stretch, sad dad shows up and starts lamenting his situation.  “What am I gonna do?..... etc, etc.”  I learn that his wife is Russian and she’s a dentist.  They met on one of his trips, eventually got married and he paid to put her through dental school.  I’m about full at this point, so I’ve got my nose buried in a book trying to look busy and give the occasional sympathetic response.  A couple of hours into this, he suddenly hands me his phone and says “Check it out”.  I take a look at the screen and see a still picture of a blond chick giving some serious oral attention to an enthusiastically engorged dick. Not one to decline the occasional porn offering, I look a bit more closely.  As I’m realizing this has the look of an actual picture and not something downloaded, he says, “That’s my wife”………..pregnant pause as I look up…………”and that’s me” – with a big grin on his face.

Dude……”Did you just show me your junk in full rage with no warning?  That’s not cool”.  🤮

He loses the grin and says, “Well, we’re swingers and it’s just our thing.”  I didn’t think you’d mind.  Then he starts regaling me with swinger stories – how awesome it is to do some chick while same goes down on the wife, etc.  All I’m thinking is I can’t wait to get to the bunk for the next rest period.

Rest break over, I’m actually dreading getting back up on the flight deck in case Mr. Hyde is back.  He is, of course, and starts showing me pictures and reading texts from of a bunch of Eastern Euro chicks that he’s been “sexting” with.  Our trip ends in Paris after our current flight, with a deadhead home.  As we sit in the hotel bar after arrival in France, now he starts asking my opinion about whether he should deadhead home to FL or take a flight to Baku, Azerbaijan so he can hook up with one or more of the chicks that have been sexting him. 

“So, the get back with the wife plan and concern for the kids…. Maybe put that on the back burner for a week or so in Baku? – I’m sure it’ll work out okay.”

That seems to re-cage him and he decides to book a ticket home.  I’d like to think I had a positive influence in the end, but it was a seriously bizarre experience overall.

Edited July 28, 2022 by JeremiahWeed

[Danger41]

So for a FedEx interview should I talk about worldwide sex odysseys as a perk or not?

[FourFans]

1 hour ago, JeremiahWeed said:

The first leg is one of the worst in the system with an 0400 takeoff to fly almost 7 hours from MEM to Anchorage as a two-man crew. 

Hold up, you're saying MEM-ANC is the worst leg in your system?  Must be a hell of a system!

[JeremiahWeed]

20 minutes ago, FourFans130 said:

Hold up, you're saying MEM-ANC is the worst leg in your system?  Must be a hell of a system!

Absolutely one of them, yes.  First leg of the trip (usually), back side of the clock departure, 7+ hours of block time with a 2-man crew. It sucks hard. That was the worst leg of that trip.  Everything else was one leg under 3-hours or long haul with one or two RFOs. 
There are some other bad ones in the system like DXB-SIN or NRT-SIN, but they’re usually not during critical body clock time.