Commanders are dropping like flies this year

[dream big]

3 minutes ago, JRBac said:

 

I'm putting more faith in a CDI than one of his (presumably) male friends who would never have been touched inappropriately/sexually by him. What exactly would it take for you to believe the woman who accused him? 

Yes because CDIs are always fair, unbiased and the woman never lies...You must be one of those believe all woman types. What if it were your son? You are naive and part of the problem if you don’t think false accusations are a problem in the military.  Fair, unbiased trial with facts and evidence - then someone becomes guilty.  Unfortunately, many have forgotten the very constitutional principles even the UCMJ was founded upon. 

[JRBac]

17 minutes ago, dream big said:

Yes because CDIs are always fair, unbiased and the woman never lies...You must be one of those believe all woman types. What if it were your son? You are naive and part of the problem if you don’t think false accusations are a problem in the military.  Fair, unbiased trial with facts and evidence - then someone becomes guilty.  Unfortunately, many have forgotten the very constitutional principles even the UCMJ was founded upon. 

What if it were your wife? Sure, CDIs suck sometimes, but so do some of the individuals we work with. 

So, again, what exactly would it take for you to believe the woman that accused him?

[SocialD]

2 hours ago, JRBac said:

I'm putting more faith in a CDI than one of his (presumably) male friends who would never have been touched inappropriately/sexually by him. What exactly would it take for you to believe the woman who accused him? 

Ya, I used to have a bit of faith in a CDI and/or OSI, then I saw a few investigations run their course...   I'm not saying there is no way this happened, but it definitely piques my interest when they had to dig up shit from 10 years ago.  Also, the fact they just let him retire tells me their evidence was shaky at best.  Sorry but this one smells funny.  But then again, I have absolutely zero faith in our justice system.  Stay quiet and get the best lawyer money can buy.

Read this little gem. I can assure you there were likely many more where the accused weren't so lucky.

Upward trend in unfounded sexual assault charges.

Edited January 18, 2020 by SocialD

[Guardian]

What if it were your wife? Sure, CDIs suck sometimes, but so do some of the individuals we work with. 

So, again, what exactly would it take for you to believe the woman that accused him?

answered already. No more just victim believing with out strong corroboration.

[JRBac]

2 minutes ago, Guardian said:

answered already. No more just victim believing with out strong corroboration.

"Her husband told investigators that Retka approached the group directly behind his wife and stood “crowded subway close” to her, which he described as awkward."

"The colonel asked the group, “Did somebody just touch my butt?” and Kennedy replied, “Yeah, mine too,” the report said."

...what else do you want?

[dream big]

2 hours ago, JRBac said:

What if it were your wife? Sure, CDIs suck sometimes, but so do some of the individuals we work with. 

So, again, what exactly would it take for you to believe the woman that accused him?

Evidence and facts.  2-3+ impartial witnesses with the same story.  These days text messages etc go a long way in painting the picture (maybe not in this case but in general.) 

[Guardian]

"Her husband told investigators that Retka approached the group directly behind his wife and stood “crowded subway close” to her, which he described as awkward."

"The colonel asked the group, “Did somebody just touch my butt?” and Kennedy replied, “Yeah, mine too,” the report said."

...what else do you want?

Ok. So the report stated what was said to a group of people. What else?

[M2]

We have 43 pages talking about such acts.  As I've recently stated, nothing surprises me anymore...

[jrizzell]

So what I’ve learned is that if your wife says someone grabbed my ass, we have men who would need 2 or 3 other witnesses, plus texts messages confirming the act, before she’s to be believed...

[dream big]

1 hour ago, jrizzell said:

So what I’ve learned is that if your wife says someone grabbed my ass, we have men who would need 2 or 3 other witnesses, plus texts messages confirming the act, before she’s to be believed...

Those were just examples, someone saying “he grabbed my ass” in of itself is not evidence.  News flash, women also lie.

[Sua Sponte]

Women do lie, as do men. The key is to not make rash decision until presented all fo the evidence as a fact finder. However, if a commander is solely using "evidence" from a very biased OSI Report of Investigation, then they might as well just skip that step and just punish the person since they've already made up their mind already. I saw a SMSgt get accused of giving an "inappropriate hug" at a party. The TSgt's wife, who was also a TSgt, wrote a statement to support the SMSgt stating she didn't feel the the hug was inappropriate. However, the douche of Sq/CC we had at the time didn't care, still pressed for an Article 15. The only thing he was relying on was that bullshit OSI Report of Investigation. He could've rolled the dice and went to a court martial, but the stakes are higher, and he had a possibility of getting a punitive discharge and losing his career. If he accepted the Article 15, the Sq/CC wasn't high enough rank to demote him, just take money away. Cost him $5,000 and the chance of ever making Chief.

[Homestar]

17 hours ago, dream big said:

What if it were your son?

If my son had been accused then found guilty by a military investigation of grinding against another mans wife.....I mean, do I really have to tell you what I would do to my son for that?

Yes, sometimes women lie. Sometimes CDIs go sideways. But it isn’t a stretch to believe that a man, while drinking, touched this woman sexually in an unwanted manner. 
 

A better question is: what would you do if this were your wife? “C’mon honey, he’s a good dude.” Let me know how that goes. 

[jrizzell]

43 minutes ago, Homestar said:

If my son had been accused then found guilty by a military investigation of grinding against another mans wife.....I mean, do I really have to tell you what I would do to my son for that?

Yes, sometimes women lie. Sometimes CDIs go sideways. But it isn’t a stretch to believe that a man, while drinking, touched this woman sexually in an unwanted manner. 
 

A better question is: what would you do if this were your wife? “C’mon honey, he’s a good dude.” Let me know how that goes. 

Bingo 

[brabus]

4 hours ago, Homestar said:

. But it isn’t a stretch to believe that a man, while drinking, touched this woman sexually in an unwanted manner. 

I agree it’s not a stretch, but let’s also consider how many dudes have been crucified with non-existent evidence or shaky circumstantial stuff at most. What about my wife?...well if she was the type who’s vindictive, petty, and/or so over reactionary, then she probably could have been the source of 69 CDIs over the years. But she’s mature enough to not rake someone over the coals for a drunken “inappropriate hug” or whatever other overreaction our PC society loves. She also has no problem dealing with someone being an idiot immediately instead of running off to tell stories to OSI, a CC, etc. Too many have forgotten how to first address issues as their level and instead go tattling to dad as the first step. My 4 yr old daughter has better conflict resolution skills then many in our society (and military) today. 

[gearhog]

Kinda makes you long for the day when a good old-fashioned ass-kicking immediately resolved these types of situations.

[17D_guy]

15 minutes ago, brabus said:

c. Too many have forgotten how to first address issues as their level and instead go tattling to dad as the first step.

Do we know that this didn't happen?  Not that a Sq/CC asking for an apology for his wife is "at their level."  But it's as close as it's going to get.

[17D_guy]

2 minutes ago, torqued said:

Kinda makes you long for the day when a good old-fashioned ass-kicking immediately resolved these types of situations.

How the fuck would this work "in the good ole' days."

"Yes SP, I punched the Full Bird in the face because my wife said he touched her ass.  Yes, I'll take the blue jumpsuit.  Thank you."

Holy fuck, like the Sq/CC would have any power back in the day?  I didn't live through it, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn and have read a ton of USAF history which seems like punching the dude would not have any good come from it for the man.

[drewpey]

This thread took a violent left turn somewhere. The world some of you fucking live in....jesus. You act like there are hordes of women running about trying to entrap you in salacious situations just to ruin your careers. There are three sides to every story. Some of you dudes love to listen to just one. 

[brabus]

2 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

Do we know that this didn't happen? 

Do we know that anything happened worthy of punishment beyond an ass chewing? You can play devils advocate all you want, but this statement lives right in line with guilty until proven innocent, squarely where OSI and the Air Force Times loves to live . 
Totally possible Fargo did some unsavory shit, but I’m also not going to shit on the man and color him a dirt bag solely because of an OSI investigation that dovetailed into character assassination disseminated by the Air Force tabloid, both groups of which have very little credibility in my opinion.

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by brabus

[JRBac]

15 minutes ago, brabus said:

Do we know that anything happened worthy of punishment beyond an ass chewing? 

Yeah, deliberately rubbing your genitals on someone is probably behavior deserving a bit more than an ass chewing...especially if you think “she probably just felt a glass of beer” is a plausible explanation.

I get this is your friend, but I seriously hope you never have a subordinate come to you with a harassment/assault issue. 

[slackline]

I agree it’s not a stretch, but let’s also consider how many dudes have been crucified with non-existent evidence or shaky circumstantial stuff at most.

What would you say the ratio of “good dude” erroneously railroaded because of vindictive women vs. the amount of women who’ve had to remain silent because of fear of reprisal, humiliation, etc.?
Sit in any virtually any leadership position in the military, and it should be painfully obvious that one of these situations (while trending in the right direction at a very good speed) happens much more than the other.

I ran a CDI where I ended up clearing a SMSgt of some bogus charges. In my brief from the IG as I was starting the investigation there was a clear bias against the dude. Everyone had already convicted him, so there’s one situation you can mark in your “guilty until proven innocent” column. It’s up to us to do the right thing. I won’t lie, I was convinced of his guilt as well. I talked to about a million people during the investigation, relied on the facts, and it was clear this guy was innocent. It wasn’t a woman trying to convince everyone of his guilt either, it was a jealous “good dude” trying to railroad the other guy...

In my current role, DO in 2 different squadrons now, I’ve also seen 5 different instances where some “good dude” was being a total douchbag.

Not making a judgment call on this situation because I don’t have all the facts. That being said, it’s a heck of a lot easier to believe some “good dude” coming from the old school behaved inappropriately towards a woman... Who on here can’t point to things they’ve heard said when some “good dude” thought no one was listening except other dirtbags...?

Maybe I’ve just had the misfortune of working with more than my fair share of “good dudes” that still think that type of behavior is okay... YMMV.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Guardian]

JRBac. No one here is advocating harassment or assault. But truth and justice for everyone. People are saying that it has to be more than just he said she said. That’s it. No ill intention to not believe a victim and protect a friend. Nor should it be innocent until accused. There has to be a fair equitable process in these events for all based on truth and evidence. Not what people over heard at a bar.

 

Sounds like everyone here wants to make sure who is the victim and who is the aggressor as it seems some in here have Victims of abuse or harassment close to their heart. And others might have been victims of false accusations or wrongly accused or victims of the cancel & #metoo culture.

 

Truth and justice. That’s it.

 

No one should be held accountable for something like that when the only thing brought forward on this chat has been saying someone touched my butt and someone else saying me too. There has to be more than that to it.

[brabus]

12 minutes ago, slackline said:

Not making a judgment call on this situation because I don’t have all the facts.

Shack...and that’s the point too many people don’t understand nowadays.  See Guardian’s post above - nailed it.

[TreeA10]

On 1/19/2020 at 6:11 AM, 17D_guy said:

How the fuck would this work "in the good ole' days."

"Yes SP, I punched the Full Bird in the face because my wife said he touched her ass.  Yes, I'll take the blue jumpsuit.  Thank you."

Holy fuck, like the Sq/CC would have any power back in the day?  I didn't live through it, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn and have read a ton of USAF history which seems like punching the dude would not have any good come from it for the man.

Many years back (i.e. the good 'ol days) during Friday night fighter pilot bar Olympics, a dude trying to be funny came behind my wife and was inappropriate. Being the confident woman she is, she turned and delivered a nicely executed elbow to the face knocking the dude to the ground and leaving an impressive black eye as a reminder not to mess with her.  No attorneys were required. 

[17D_guy]

26 minutes ago, TreeA10 said:

Many years back (i.e. the good 'ol days) during Friday night fighter pilot bar Olympics, a dude trying to be funny came behind my wife and was inappropriate. Being the confident woman she is, she turned and delivered a nicely executed elbow to the face knocking the dude to the ground and leaving an impressive black eye as a reminder not to mess with her.  No attorneys were required. 

That's awesome -- no sarcasm.  I'm not a fan of the instant victim.

However, was the it the OG/CC?  If so...same rules would have applied w/ no repercussions to you?