Commanders are dropping like flies this year

[Skitzo]

Had a similar situation when I was a commander in Maintenance. Troop had a batshit crazy wife. Went off of her meds. Possessed marijuana in base housing and smoked it to deal with her anxiety to include around some children.

 

We did have to take action on it but neither me, nor the first sergeant or anyone else at the time were about to prefer charges that the drugs were his.

 

Nevertheless I supported NJP and took a stripe for allowing the situation to continue.

 

I would like to think that was the proper course of action. But y’all can judge me accordingly.

 

Hard to judge the situation mentioned without all of the facts but I would like to think that there would have been something to prove that the drugs were his.

 

Say what you want to say but OSI cannot force a commander to prefer charges.

 

[Hawg15]

1 hour ago, pawnman said:

Look, I'm sympathetic to the guy's plight.  But there were drugs, in a house he owned, and even if he wasn't dealing, he let the person who owned the drugs stay in the house, and bring the drugs in.

It sucks that he decided suicide was the way out.  It sucks that his girl was a crazy psycho.  But this  whole case shows a real lack of decision making ability on his part.  I wasn't part of the jury, none of us were, so none of us has all the info.  However, if I were sitting in the jury for a court-martial where they found drugs in the home of an active duty member, especially one making life-and-death decisions like weapons employment...I'd vote for conviction in a heartbeat.  

I really don't see how this would have gone any other way once they found drugs in a house that he owned and was living in.  Anything after that would just sound like a guilty person concocting a story to avoid punishment.

A very holier than thou view you have there. I don’t know this guy personally, but you have quite the bias. I’m not saying he did no wrong, but you act like this is some easy black and white situation. There’s a lot of blame all around for him, the girl, and OSI/the military judicial system.

1. That’s not how possession charges work in the civilian world, and he’s not guilty until proven innocent in the a real court. A psycho bringing shit into your house (especially if you don’t know) does not make you responsible for said psycho. 
 

2. You must’ve never had significant family issues go on, because most people will choose to cling to a turbulent family situation over the military who is also ing you every day (in a bad way) I’ve chosen relationship situations that weren’t necessarily the best course of action over the military plenty of times, and I wouldn’t expect others to act differently with the blinders people have for loved ones.

3. You bring up weapons employment. Have you ever been directly responsible for someone’s death? Ever listened to guys in a TIC begging for help get killed? I don’t know what he was going through, but I haven’t met many people that aren’t heavily impacted by death. They may cover it up with the joking around, but when you have a real heart to heart with the bros it’s acknowledged. I think you would be surprised at the coping mechanisms many people in the military who have those experiences develop. They have no other help that won’t destroy their lives as they know it in their eyes. I couldn’t imagine sitting in a box for 8 hours, killing some people, watching Americans you can’t help die, and then just going home to my family that night like it’s nothing. Especially when there’s family issues at home. The Air Force pretends that they are there for you, but will gladly take your job if you actually seek mental health help for combat experiences. We have plenty of example of it. And there’s plenty of data acknowledging how crippling it can be for veterans. 
 

The useless morons in OSI who entrap and crave convicting anyone for anything have plenty of blame in his death. They have no real job, and far too much power. They try to coerce false accusations and entrap people as much as possible. They even sit around at Nellis trying to get people to talk about classified info so they can get you for they. If they were real cops that found her drugs in his house, she would’ve been charged with it, not him for owning the house. 

[jrizzell]

41 minutes ago, Hawg15 said:

I couldn’t imagine sitting in a box for 8 hours, killing some people, watching Americans you can’t help die, and then just going home to my family that night like it’s nothing. Especially when there’s family issues at home. The Air Force pretends that they are there for you, but will gladly take your job if you actually seek mental health help for combat experiences. We have plenty of example of it. And there’s plenty of data acknowledging how crippling it can be for veterans. 

I feel like we’ve only begun to see the onslaught of PTSD for those individuals whose who operates weaponized RPA’s. It would be surreal to routinely track and ultimately kill someone during a sortie, then have to drive home but “hey don’t forget milk and bread” for the family. That type of dynamic could absolutely mess with an individuals psyche. I hope the Air Force can provide something, besides lip service, for them 

[GKinnear]

The Human Performance Team (HPT) in the MQ-9 enterprise is a great support mechanism for the Pilots, SOs, and Intel. It's modeled similar to Medics and Psychs in the SOF world. The mental and spiritual pros are have the same clearances as the operators and make regular walk-thrus during ops for site visits. You can see the visible change in someone when they realize that it's ok to talk to someone, that they can find a room in the SCIF and just really open up about the stress to someone. 

 

[SocialD]

Now imagine your OSI shop and your jury are filled with mindsets like Pawnman...  Don't say a word and get the best lawyer you can afford (or maybe not even afford).  Guilty until proven innocent is alive and well.  

[Duck]

“If we go back in with this punishment, the Wing Commander will be pissed” overheard at a CM I sat through once... 🤦🏻‍♂️


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[pawnman]

22 hours ago, Hawg15 said:

A very holier than thou view you have there. I don’t know this guy personally, but you have quite the bias. I’m not saying he did no wrong, but you act like this is some easy black and white situation. There’s a lot of blame all around for him, the girl, and OSI/the military judicial system.

1. That’s not how possession charges work in the civilian world, and he’s not guilty until proven innocent in the a real court. A psycho bringing shit into your house (especially if you don’t know) does not make you responsible for said psycho. 
 

2. You must’ve never had significant family issues go on, because most people will choose to cling to a turbulent family situation over the military who is also ing you every day (in a bad way) I’ve chosen relationship situations that weren’t necessarily the best course of action over the military plenty of times, and I wouldn’t expect others to act differently with the blinders people have for loved ones.

3. You bring up weapons employment. Have you ever been directly responsible for someone’s death? Ever listened to guys in a TIC begging for help get killed? I don’t know what he was going through, but I haven’t met many people that aren’t heavily impacted by death. They may cover it up with the joking around, but when you have a real heart to heart with the bros it’s acknowledged. I think you would be surprised at the coping mechanisms many people in the military who have those experiences develop. They have no other help that won’t destroy their lives as they know it in their eyes. I couldn’t imagine sitting in a box for 8 hours, killing some people, watching Americans you can’t help die, and then just going home to my family that night like it’s nothing. Especially when there’s family issues at home. The Air Force pretends that they are there for you, but will gladly take your job if you actually seek mental health help for combat experiences. We have plenty of example of it. And there’s plenty of data acknowledging how crippling it can be for veterans. 
 

The useless morons in OSI who entrap and crave convicting anyone for anything have plenty of blame in his death. They have no real job, and far too much power. They try to coerce false accusations and entrap people as much as possible. They even sit around at Nellis trying to get people to talk about classified info so they can get you for they. If they were real cops that found her drugs in his house, she would’ve been charged with it, not him for owning the house. 

1.  It's exactly how possession charges work.  Never done a dorm sweep before?  What do you think happens to the young airmen when drugs are found in their room?  "Oh, it wasn't mine, shirt, my crazy girlfriend must have left them here."

2.  I've made decisions for my family over my career.  None of them involved bringing narcotics to the house.  Or really, breaking any federal laws.

3.  Yes, dude.  I've been flying the B-1 for 13 years.  Four deployments.  I've dropped weapons in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria.  Like...hundreds of weapons.  Couldn't tell you how many people, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's over a thousand.  None of that made me curl up with a crazy stripper high on drugs who brought that shit into the house.

OSI didn't entrap him into letting drugs come into the house.  I might buy that argument if the stripper was an OSI agent...but she wasn't.  This dude made a whole series of really bad decisions before OSI got the first phone call.

Edited January 27, 2020 by pawnman

[Skitzo]

“If we go back in with this punishment, the Wing Commander will be pissed” overheard at a CM I sat through once...


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

That sounds like unlawful command influence.

[pawnman]

14 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

I don't know if you understand what knowingly means? 

 

 

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/drug-crimes/drug-possession/

 

https://www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/us/philadelphia-drug-bust-house-seizure/index.html

https://www.michaelkernlaw.com/blog/2015/may/can-i-be-arrested-if-someone-uses-drugs-in-my-ho/

 

[jrizzell]

2 hours ago, GKinnear said:

The Human Performance Team (HPT) in the MQ-9 enterprise is a great support mechanism for the Pilots, SOs, and Intel. It's modeled similar to Medics and Psychs in the SOF world. The mental and spiritual pros are have the same clearances as the operators and make regular walk-thrus during ops for site visits. You can see the visible change in someone when they realize that it's ok to talk to someone, that they can find a room in the SCIF and just really open up about the stress to someone. 

 

What a a fantastic resource; glad to see some effort is being made to support the mental welfare of operators who have been at the frontline of a new type of warfare. 

[Sua Sponte]

2 hours ago, pawnman said:

https://www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/us/philadelphia-drug-bust-house-seizure/index.html

https://www.michaelkernlaw.com/blog/2015/may/can-i-be-arrested-if-someone-uses-drugs-in-my-ho/

 

You posted two state cases/laws that have nothing to do with a court martial via jurisdiction. The UCMJ just says via Article 112a ““Any person subject to this chapter who wrongfully uses, possesses, manufactures, distributes, imports into the customs territory of the United States, exports from the United States, or introduces into an installation, vessel, vehicle, or aircraft used by or under the control of the armed forces a substance described in subsection (b) shall be punished as a court-martial shall direct.”

To me, and to some other people, willful involved the element of “knowing” what you’re doing is wrong and against the law.

[VigilanteNav]

Not sure if someone posted this one earlier and I missed it but thought it was worthy of more discussion.  Can we please stop having CC's who touch another officer's wife inappropriately at an official Air Force function?  Is that too much to ask for?  Do your F'ing job and just bang your own wife/significant other!!! 

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/01/16/spangdahlem-group-commander-disciplined-for-inappropriately-touching-squadron-commanders-wife/

Edited January 26, 2020 by VigilanteNav

[SocialD]

34 minutes ago, VigilanteNav said:

Not sure if someone posted this one earlier and I missed it but thought it was worthy of more discussion.  Can we please stop having CC's who touch another officer's wife inappropriately at an official Air Force function?  Is that too much to ask for?  Do your F'ing job and just bang your own wife/significant other!!! 

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/01/16/spangdahlem-group-commander-disciplined-for-inappropriately-touching-squadron-commanders-wife/

Start reading here.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by SocialD

[viper154]

16 hours ago, jrizzell said:

I feel like we’ve only begun to see the onslaught of PTSD for those individuals whose who operates weaponized RPA’s. It would be surreal to routinely track and ultimately kill someone during a sortie, then have to drive home but “hey don’t forget milk and bread” for the family. That type of dynamic could absolutely mess with an individuals psyche. I hope the Air Force can provide something, besides lip service, for them 

It does, but as mentioned above there are resources in place, and unless you are a threat to yourself/others or to messed up to fly they are good about providing assistance and keeping you flying. 
 

The few RPA units I were in during my time flying them were all extremely close. It certainly helped being able to punch the ICS button to your bro’s next door and chat/decompress/sport bitch while controlling a drone spinning endless circles. We always hung out as a shift on our off day’s, often it was standard drinking shenanigans but we did plenty of other non destructive things, I made some of the best friends I’ve ever had in the RPA world. 
 

Hardest part for most wasn’t the mission, it was usually pretty clear these guys we were going after were bad and a threat. It was more so the endless shift work. There was no end of deployment, go home, decompress, normal life. Most line guys had 3-4 years of mission work, 5-6 days a week with no real break until they got a front office job or farmed out of the squadron. There was talk when I went back manned a few years ago of getting a more “normal” type of “deployment cycle” going so people got some time off the line, but manning needed a major plus up first. Not sure how that is going. 
 

All that being said, his job stress certainly could have played a role in this unfortunate situation. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by viper154

[17D_guy]

41 minutes ago, viper154 said:

Hardest part for most wasn’t the mission, it was usually pretty clear these guys we were going after were bad and a threat. It was more so the endless shift work. There was no end of deployment, go home, decompress, normal life. Most line guys had 3-4 years of mission work, 5-6 days a week with no real break until they got a front office job or farmed out of the squadron. There was talk when I went back manned a few years ago of getting a more “normal” type of “deployment cycle” going so people got some time off the line, but manning needed a major plus up first. Not sure how that is going.

How fucking stupid is the Air Force that this is something that was dealt with in the missile fields and they can't figure it out?

[Danger41]

On 1/26/2020 at 1:47 PM, 17D_guy said:

How fucking stupid is the Air Force that this is something that was dealt with in the missile fields and they can't figure it out?

Can you explain? I always wondered about the missileers and sitting in the silos if they got qual’d and just did that their whole careers or what.

[Breckey]

Short answer, yes. The alerts are sat by mostly first assignment personnel. Most try and cross train or separate, not necessarily because of the schedule but because of the job. Most guys assigned to ops squadron work 4-6 alerts per month. Alerts are 24 hours long but do not include travel and pre/post briefs so the alert shift is two duty days.

Also missileers haven't sat alert near the silos since the Titan II was retired in the 1980s. The MMIII has the capsule (or missileers) dispersed from the actual silos.

[17D_guy]

1 hour ago, Breckey said:

Short answer, yes. The alerts are sat by mostly first assignment personnel. Most try and cross train or separate, not necessarily because of the schedule but because of the job. Most guys assigned to ops squadron work 4-6 alerts per month. Alerts are 24 hours long but do not include travel and pre/post briefs so the alert shift is two duty days.

Also missileers haven't sat alert near the silos since the Titan II was retired in the 1980s. The MMIII has the capsule (or missileers) dispersed from the actual silos.

In addition to this when manning is tight, and/or people can't sit ops (ex. pregnancy, discipline, etc.) the people who can get double duty.  Also, getting snowed in is a thing.  Finally, manning did get so bad I know a few peeps who got orders for back-to-back ops and just separated.

Plus they had testing, and stan/eval exercises as well on top of sitting ops. So you could do 1-4 exercises a watch, then get called in to do a quarterly checkride or test.  Which may, or may not, match up with your sleeping pattern.  If you deviated at all from 100%, even for an "exercise" it was reflected poorly.

Why the shit hit the fan on those bases for about a decade straight.

[Breckey]

45 minutes ago, 17D_guy said:

In addition to this when manning is tight, and/or people can't sit ops (ex. pregnancy, discipline, etc.) the people who can get double duty.  Also, getting snowed in is a thing.  Finally, manning did get so bad I know a few peeps who got orders for back-to-back ops and just separated.

Plus they had testing, and stan/eval exercises as well on top of sitting ops. So you could do 1-4 exercises a watch, then get called in to do a quarterly checkride or test.  Which may, or may not, match up with your sleeping pattern.  If you deviated at all from 100%, even for an "exercise" it was reflected poorly.

Why the shit hit the fan on those bases for about a decade straight.

To piggyback: I explained this back in the cheating scandal thread but evaluators are not instructors. Also you are (or at least were) only an instructor/evaluator in your sub-position. You could go from being a deputy evaluator and qualify as a capsule commander and go back to the bottom. Many people try and get evaluator/OGV as quickly as possible because it gets them off of alert and onto a desk job. The checkrides are in their simulators. In 2014 (last time I had good data) the fuck-your-buddy mentality was strong with the evaluators because their effectiveness as an evaluator was how poorly people did on tests/evals. I hear that some of it has changed but there is a reason some missile squadrons have 2-3 FGOs including the CC/DO.

[LaneHBO]

Just going to leave this here for you gentlemen. Are we becoming too soft as a military? 

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2020/01/30/commander-of-california-fighter-squadron-fired/

Edited January 31, 2020 by LaneHBO

[drewpey]

19 hours ago, LaneHBO said:

Just going to leave this here for you gentlemen. Are we becoming too soft as a military? 

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2020/01/30/commander-of-california-fighter-squadron-fired/

How low, how fast and over what/who?  Gotta be more to the story, and there's gotta be a youtube video of it...can't find it.

[SocialD]

2 hours ago, drewpey said:

How low, how fast and over what/who?  Gotta be more to the story, and there's gotta be a youtube video of it...can't find it.

Someone posted a video of the flyby on the OFP FB group...no way in hell that the flyby was the only caused of the firing!  If it was, then things are much, much worse than I thought, which I didnt think was possible.  

[Hawg15]

23 hours ago, LaneHBO said:

Just going to leave this here for you gentlemen. Are we becoming too soft as a military? 

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2020/01/30/commander-of-california-fighter-squadron-fired/

The Marine Corps has no room to allow any breach of flight discipline after the air refueling mishap, and they know it. Especially with a commander in public view.

[NEflyer]

It's much easier to shift blame to the men for recent aviation fatalities and call them "cowboys" rather than acknowledge the massive organization faults, lack of resources, and corrupt leadership truly causing these accidents. 

For those who haven't read it yet, this should offer some context:

https://www.propublica.org/article/marines-hornet-squadron-242-crash-pacific-resilard

Edited February 1, 2020 by NEflyer

[pawnman]

8 minutes ago, NEflyer said:

It's much easier to shift blame to the men and call them "cowboys" rather than acknowledge the massive organization faults and corrupt leadership that exist... 

For those who haven't read it yet, this should offer some context:

https://www.propublica.org/article/marines-hornet-squadron-242-crash-pacific-resilard

Looks like a standard air show profile to me.