Commanders are dropping like flies this year

[drewpey]

1 hour ago, Bigred said:

Bye Felicia...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/politics/modly-resign-crozier-esper-trump/index.html

[Danger41]

I’m with Huggy on this one. I have more of an issue with the Secretary being a complete loser and bowing to the pressure of the unwashed masses than with his decision. His whole bleeding heart point was that the strategic value and combat readiness of a carrier was compromised by Capt Crozier’s actions in a world that’s “not totally at peace“. What do you think the message is to China that if you make enough noise on Twitter that they can get high level government officials canned? 
 

I’ll admit that this thing was fucked up from Jump Street, but there is absolutely zero courage to make tough calls in large portions of our government now.

[Runr6730]

[raimius]

A cluster all the way around...

Send out a 30+ recipient email with opsec/national security concerns that makes it to the press?  Yeah, you are going to get fired.
Publicly denigrate the (popular) CO you just fired to his (supportive) crew and the audio makes it to the press?  Yeah, you are going to get fired.

 

[Bigred]

40 minutes ago, raimius said:

 

Send out a 30+ recipient email with opsec/national security concerns that makes it to the press?  Yeah, you are going to get fired.

 

Two points that have irked me.

First, nothing in the letter he sent was classified information. Having spent 18 years in the Navy, I’m pretty familiar with what reporting requirements are classified on ship readiness. The Captain was brilliant in the way he phrased his letter because none of it hit the classified mark.

Second, he is being denigrated for the letter leaking. From some friends of mine on the 7th Fleet staff, he didn’t leak it, someone else did. Holding Capt Crozier responsible for it leaking would be the same as me sending a SIPR email, it gets leaked by someone on the to or cc line, and it’s my fault it leaked. 
 

Capt Crozier did what he needed to to help his sailors. I’m not surprised he got fired because it made his chain of command look bad, and people don’t like being told by their subordinates that they are all ed up.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Bigred

[17D_guy]

9 hours ago, Bigred said:

First, nothing in the letter he sent was classified information. Having spent 18 years in the Navy, I’m pretty familiar with what reporting requirements are classified on ship readiness. The Captain was brilliant in the way he phrased his letter because none of it hit the classified mark.

I've read the letter three times and this is what I've come out to now.  I do the classified reporting for my unit, and this didn't even touch on anything classified.  Everybody's fall back is that the letter "put operations at risk" but I haven't seen that at all.

[disgruntledemployee]

Well, our Navy, the best Navy in the world, deserves a better Secretary.  I wager a case of Pliney IPAs that CAPT Crozier drafted that message, read it 50 more times, sipping a scotch or whatever hooch he has squirreled away in his office, gazed out the window at the sea reminiscing of good times, and knew once he hit send, his career was over, but his folks might get the help he wanted them to get, and that was worth it.  It's a shame shit like this has to happen, but it will keep happening because we will always have piss poor people in important jobs above us.

And I just guessing here, but a few more heads will roll, probably starting with the "Adm down the hall."

Out

[M2]

29 minutes ago, 17D_guy said:

I've read the letter three times and this is what I've come out to now.  I do the classified reporting for my unit, and this didn't even touch on anything classified.  Everybody's fall back is that the letter "put operations at risk" but I haven't seen that at all.

 

9 hours ago, Bigred said:

Two points that have irked me.

First, nothing in the letter he sent was classified information. Having spent 18 years in the Navy, I’m pretty familiar with what reporting requirements are classified on ship readiness. The Captain was brilliant in the way he phrased his letter because none of it hit the classified mark.

Second, he is being denigrated for the letter leaking. From some friends of mine on the 7th Fleet staff, he didn’t leak it, someone else did. Holding Capt Crozier responsible for it leaking would be the same as me sending a SIPR email, it gets leaked by someone on the to or cc line, and it’s my fault it leaked. 
 

Capt Crozier did what he needed to to help his sailors. I’m not surprised he got fired because it made his chain of command look bad, and people don’t like being told by their subordinates that they are all ed up.

Not the point.  First, just because it isn't classified doesn't mean it doesn't have to be protected.   Secondly, he had easy access to SIPRNET, so reporting sensitive information via it would have made a lot more sense.  Thirdly, his immediate boss, Commander Carrier Strike Group NINE RADM Stuart “Studa” Baker was literally just down the hall from him.  I understand there reportedly were "tensions" between Crozier and Baker, but that's no reason to jump the chain of command except for extreme circumstances.  

Again, there's too many unknowns at the moment to determine who was actually right; and to be honest I suspect all parties have blood on their hands when it comes to this incident; but there is clear evidence that Crozier had better mechanisms to communicate his concerns, and didn't use them.  Does that justify his firing?  Not really, but it does address the accusation of claims of bad judgment in terms of communicating.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/dont-fixate-on-secretary-modly-we-need-to-hear-from-rear-admiral-stu-baker-on-captain-crozier

[nsplayr]

25 minutes ago, M2 said:

"...but that's no reason to jump the chain of command except for extreme circumstances. "

Just spitballing here, but perhaps the Captain considered it "extreme circumstances" to be on a ship of ~4K sailors all stacked up nuts-to-butts while a deadly virus swept the ship, despite being docked at a friendly port, all under a bureaucracy that was slow-rolling his attempts to evacuate the crew 🤷‍♂️

Dude knew he was falling on his sword to protect his people, the SECNAV played stupid games and won a stupid prize, and Monday morning quarterbacking is kind of like masturbation...we all do it and it's fun up to a certain point, but only to a point.

There are always things to address in the debrief, but I'm not having a hard time seeing who was broadly right and who was broadly wrong in this situation even with limited information.

[HuggyU2]

36 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

perhaps the Captain considered it "extreme circumstances" to be on a ship of ~4K sailors all stacked up nuts-to-butts while a deadly virus swept the ship,

As M2 pointed out, he had a 1-star just down the hallway.  I'd guess the two of them discussed it, the 1-star told Crozier "noted... press on" and CAPT Crozier didn't care for that.  

Oh well.  He came to a fork in the road, and made his choice.  As one of the articles I read stated:  "It wasn't just sent up the chain of command, it was send and copied to a broad array of other people.  It was send outside the chain of command."   

I don't know much about Navy ops... but a carrier strike group is a pretty big deal, and represents a metric shit-ton of American power and might.  Everyone knows the Pacific Theater carries a lot of risk to American presence.  I have no doubt the admiral in charge of that group is up to the task, and that he understands the mission comes first.  It was the admiral's call on how to handle this, and Crozier tried to bypass him.  

[pawnman]

11 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

As M2 pointed out, he had a 1-star just down the hallway.  I'd guess the two of them discussed it, the 1-star told Crozier "noted... press on" and CAPT Crozier didn't care for that.  

Oh well.  He came to a fork in the road, and made his choice.  As one of the articles I read stated:  "It wasn't just sent up the chain of command, it was send and copied to a broad array of other people.  It was send outside the chain of command."   

I don't know much about Navy ops... but a carrier strike group is a pretty big deal, and represents a metric shit-ton of American power and might.  Everyone knows the Pacific Theater carries a lot of risk to American presence.  I have no doubt the admiral in charge of that group is up to the task, and that he understands the mission comes first.  It was the admiral's call on how to handle this, and Crozier tried to bypass him.  

Fits DoD policy perfectly.

"Here, put on these masks so we don't spread Covid-19 all over the military.  Stop movement.  No TDYs.  No PCS.  No leave".

"We know you have two dozen positive cases, but keep hot bunking and working inches away from the sick crew members.".

 

[Bigred]

1 hour ago, M2 said:

 

Not the point.  First, just because it isn't classified doesn't mean it doesn't have to be protected.   Secondly, he had easy access to SIPRNET, so reporting sensitive information via it would have made a lot more sense. 

If something is classified, it gets sent via SIPR or higher. If something is sensitive but not classified, it gets sent encrypted on NIPR. Saying sensitive but not classified info now needs to go on SIPR is frankly BS. 

[uhhello]

23 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

As M2 pointed out, he had a 1-star just down the hallway.  I'd guess the two of them discussed it, the 1-star told Crozier "noted... press on" and CAPT Crozier didn't care for that.  

Oh well.  He came to a fork in the road, and made his choice.  As one of the articles I read stated:  "It wasn't just sent up the chain of command, it was send and copied to a broad array of other people.  It was send outside the chain of command."   

I don't know much about Navy ops... but a carrier strike group is a pretty big deal, and represents a metric shit-ton of American power and might.  Everyone knows the Pacific Theater carries a lot of risk to American presence.  I have no doubt the admiral in charge of that group is up to the task, and that he understands the mission comes first.  It was the admiral's call on how to handle this, and Crozier tried to bypass him.  

Not much of a mission to hack when half of the boat is lining the halls sick

[Bigred]

29 minutes ago, HuggyU2 said:

I don't know much about Navy ops... but a carrier strike group is a pretty big deal, and represents a metric shit-ton of American power and might.  Everyone knows the Pacific Theater carries a lot of risk to American presence.  I have no doubt the admiral in charge of that group is up to the task, and that he understands the mission comes first.  It was the admiral's call on how to handle this, and Crozier tried to bypass him.  

The Navy gives a ship CO an incredible amount of latitude on how they deal with their boat. The Admiral has a say, but it’s mainly on having boat A in location B to do the fighting. 99.9% of the actual boat day-to-day is left up to the CO.

In my opinion, what makes this whole situation completely f-ed up is that SECNAV relieved him. If the relief was going to happen it should’ve been (or I would’ve expected) from the strike group admiral or 7th Fleet, or at highest Pac Fleet. 
 

The fact that it went all the way to SECNAV makes me think that the chain of command was actually OK with the letter. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Bigred

[old crow]

3 hours ago, disgruntledemployee said:

Well, our Navy, the best Navy in the world, deserves a better Secretary.  I wager a case of Pliney IPAs that CAPT Crozier drafted that message, read it 50 more times, sipping a scotch or whatever hooch he has squirreled away in his office, gazed out the window at the sea reminiscing of good times, and knew once he hit send, his career was over, but his folks might get the help he wanted them to get, and that was worth it.  It's a shame shit like this has to happen, but it will keep happening because we will always have piss poor people in important jobs above us.

And I just guessing here, but a few more heads will roll, probably starting with the "Adm down the hall."

Out

Where the hell can you find a case of Pliny?  Best I can find is individual bottles.

[Day Man]

26 minutes ago, old crow said:

Where the hell can you find a case of Pliny?  Best I can find is individual bottles.

And they're bottling the Younger now...

[old crow]

9 minutes ago, Day Man said:

And they're bottling the Younger now...

I had the pleasure of 3 bottles of the Younger last month...amazing.  If the Elder is selling for $7+ a bottle, I shudder at the Younger pricing.

Sorry to derail this thread.

[HuggyU2]

5 minutes ago, old crow said:

I had the pleasure of 3 bottles of the Younger last month...amazing.  If the Elder is selling for $7+ a bottle, I shudder at the Younger pricing.

Sorry to derail this thread.

Four days ago, they had the Elder at the grocery store.  Totally out of the blue.  $5.99 a bottle and there were at least a dozen bottles.  I said something to the checker as I was buying one, and she said "yeah... this never happens."

 

1 hour ago, uhhello said:

Not much of a mission to hack when half of the boat is lining the halls sick 

You're being stupid and naive.  

I keed, I keed! 

Edited April 8, 2020 by HuggyU2

[SurelySerious]

“...there is no doubt that Crozier was more right than wrong...”

Also to paraphrase: “the Navy is too concerned with fixed deployment schedules and should be more apt to Mattis’ ‘be strategically predictable, but operationally unpredictable’ with respect to sending CSGs out”

 

A worthwhile read. 

[drewpey]

3 hours ago, Bigred said:

The Navy gives a ship CO an incredible amount of latitude on how they deal with their boat. The Admiral has a say, but it’s mainly on having boat A in location B to do the fighting. 99.9% of the actual boat day-to-day is left up to the CO.

In my opinion, what makes this whole situation completely f-ed up is that SECNAV relieved him. If the relief was going to happen it should’ve been (or I would’ve expected) from the strike group admiral or 7th Fleet, or at highest Pac Fleet. 
 

The fact that it went all the way to SECNAV makes me think that the chain of command was actually OK with the letter. 

2 March Article

I wonder if the abnormal communication procedures were due to political sensitivities.  Seems like there was a bit of micromanagement going on in order to control the message.

[Pooter]

I find it very hard to believe that Crozier simply jumped the chain of command including the adm just down the hall without having exhausted other options first.  

I'd bet most of my money that he tried passing concerns through the appropriate channels to the appropriate people and was met with "press/figure it out/be an athlete.."  This is a story we've heard a million times.  Leadership won't pay attention to a mid-level problem until A: it becomes so severe they can't ignore it, or B: the mid-level commander forces them to pay attention.  Looks like Crozier chose option B to prevent option A.  So he decided to send a nuclear bomb of an email that he knew would blow back on him but at least get his crew taken care of.  And judging by the crew and big navy's reaction, this seems like the only plausible read of the situation.  

Edited April 8, 2020 by Pooter

[M2]

5 hours ago, Bigred said:

If something is classified, it gets sent via SIPR or higher. If something is sensitive but not classified, it gets sent encrypted on NIPR. Saying sensitive but not classified info now needs to go on SIPR is frankly BS. 

I didn't say sensitive unclass had to go on SIPR, but it would have been a better choice.  So would encrypted NIPR.  Sending it in the open is actually a violation of DoD policy...

[FLEA]

12 hours ago, Bigred said:

If something is classified, it gets sent via SIPR or higher. If something is sensitive but not classified, it gets sent encrypted on NIPR. Saying sensitive but not classified info now needs to go on SIPR is frankly BS. 

And possobly illegal. 

The memo was already marked FOUO which means someone already broke a law by leaking it. 

Yes, you could send via SIPR, but with the same recipient list the leaker would still have recieved it. 

It would still have to be marked FOUO on SIPR. Leaker can still print it and take it home. 

Marking it secret on SIPR when the contents are in fact FOUO is a crime. 

The direction or suggestion to move the conversation to SIPR indicates a lack of understanding on information control procedures by senior Navy leadership. 

 

 

Some other thoughts I've had though. 1.) What would public perception have been if we evacuated an aircraft carrier of demographically young/healthier people, when we are making cruise ships sit at sea for 2-3 weeks when they have outbreaks. 2.) What was the demographic of the outbreak? If it disproportionately effected officers you have some serious command and control issues to be weary of. Effecting certain sections like engines might jeapordize safety, etc...

Edited April 9, 2020 by FLEA

[pawnman]

14 hours ago, M2 said:

I didn't say sensitive unclass had to go on SIPR, but it would have been a better choice.  So would encrypted NIPR.  Sending it in the open is actually a violation of DoD policy...

Do we have any evidence it was NOT encrypted on NIPR?

[war007afa]

7 hours ago, FLEA said:

What would public perception have been if we evacuated an aircraft carrier of demographically young/healthier people, when we are making cruise ships sit at sea for 2-3 weeks when they have outbreaks.

A cruise ship isn't an instrument of national power; a CSG just leaving port is a strong message to any adversary that shit's about to get real.  Evacuating a few dozen sailors from a ship before combat effectiveness erodes is a prudent decision, and ultimately would have cost the Navy next to nothing (other than senior leadership having to actually demonstrate the ability to admit their first instinct was wrong and change their minds).

Throughout my career, I've been flabbergasted by the hesitance of military leadership at multiple levels to take what could be deemed a tactical loss for a strategic win.  "Oh, no! My boss will see I have sick people and will look upon me negatively!" seems to routinely override "I made the decision to take a quick pause, police my rounds, and get back in the fight sooner and with greater lethality because I didn't let my pride take out my unit and both of my kneecaps".  Even ISIS seems to understand this damn point (re: ISIS guidance to avoid COVID-19 hot spots)!

All that said, if you make your boss look like a jackass without giving him/her a chance to solve your issue at your level, not zesty.  And for the classified/FOUO/sensative/etc argument: compilation is our largest vulnerability in today's day and age.