Commanders are dropping like flies this year

[LaneHBO]

3 hours ago, NEflyer said:

 

For those who haven't read it yet, this should offer some context:

https://www.propublica.org/article/marines-hornet-squadron-242-crash-pacific-resilard

I read the article and I didn't know whether to shed a tear or lash out in utter disgust. Talking about a very detailed and well written article. I felt the cold water against my skin as those men sat waiting for search and rescue. 

Thanks for posting that article!

Edited February 1, 2020 by LaneHBO

[Hawg15]

1 hour ago, NEflyer said:

It's much easier to shift blame to the men for recent aviation fatalities and call them "cowboys" rather than acknowledge the massive organization faults, lack of resources, and corrupt leadership truly causing these accidents. 

For those who haven't read it yet, this should offer some context:

https://www.propublica.org/article/marines-hornet-squadron-242-crash-pacific-resilard

I like to be bitter and hate on the military like it’s my job, but I’ve read all the safety info as well as watched the flight data from the mishap. There’s plenty of mishaps where events outside a pilot’s control were the main cause, but we can’t pretend they all are. There was a lot of organizational faults that led to low currency and training issues and the crew shouldn’t have been stepped, but a decision to give the tanker a show caused this, not the AR. A standard departure would’ve resulted in everyone going home that night. However, everyone up the chain deserves blame and to face their negligence for how the organization was being run.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Hawg15

[Boomer6]

7 hours ago, Hawg15 said:

but a decision to give the tanker a show caused this, not the AR. A standard departure would’ve resulted in everyone going home that night.

How so? The article states PROFANE 11 made that show call with nothing to suggest that changed how the mishap pilot maneuvered in the next few seconds, so can you elaborate on your statement? Copy it’s an article written by a “journalist” and I haven’t read the safety report yet so I get that important details might have been left out/may not be appropriate to discuss here. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Boomer6

[Hawg15]

2 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

How so? The article states PROFANE 11 made that show call with nothing to suggest that changed how the mishap pilot maneuvered in the next few seconds, so can you elaborate on your statement? Copy it’s an article written by a “journalist” and I haven’t read the safety report yet so I get that important details might have been left out/may not be appropriate to discuss here. 

I’m not going to post privileged info on a public website, but if you have access or can get a briefing on what actually happened you should. The article leaves out plenty of details on what occurred. There are standard TTPs for a reason.

[Kenny Powers]

12 hours ago, NEflyer said:

It's much easier to shift blame to the men for recent aviation fatalities and call them "cowboys" rather than acknowledge the massive organization faults, lack of resources, and corrupt leadership truly causing these accidents. 

For those who haven't read it yet, this should offer some context:

https://www.propublica.org/article/marines-hornet-squadron-242-crash-pacific-resilard

 

12 hours ago, pawnman said:

Looks like a standard air show profile to me.

 

Looks like pulling closed after a low approach on a Wednesday to me.

[Clark Griswold]

 
Looks like pulling closed after a low approach on a Wednesday to me.

2 - I didn’t see anything hair raising in that maneuver



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigred]

Supposedly the flyover was briefed to the 2-star at 600’ and 350 knots but they went 200’ and 500 knots. 
 

Big deal? To me, not really.

Taken in the context with the F-18/C-130 mishap (failures on all levels, pilot to leadership), I hate to say I can understand why the 2-star did a knee jerk firing. If a CO can either blow off flying the profile he briefed to the general, or is such a poor aviator to be off parameters that much, what does that show to the junior folks in his squadron?

I don’t necessarily agree with the firing but I can understand it. 

[LaneHBO]

Reading about the ass grabbing firing made me do something at Gold's Gym off base I probably wouldn't normally think of in a million years. I was walking to the cleaning station and had to pass between two pieces of gym equipment. A young lady was blocking part of the narrow path with her huge ass sticking out as she stood there. I turned my backside to her and proceeded to pass by her. That way nobody could say I grabbed her ass or something stupid because our backsides were facing each other.  

Edited February 1, 2020 by LaneHBO

[HuggyU2]

On 1/31/2020 at 7:27 PM, pawnman said:

Looks like a standard air show profile to me.

There are a multitude of problems with the entire evolution.

A couple of the very minor ones are:

- it wasn't an airshow.

- it wasn't waivered airspace.  

[jrizzell]

Supposedly the flyover was briefed to the 2-star at 600’ and 350 knots but they went 200’ and 500 knots 

If you’re the SQ/CC sitting in the back seat when this happens, I can absolutely see why he was fired. He’s supposed to be the adult leadership...

[Guardian]

We are in a lot of trouble in the next full up war if when we go in we have leaders like the one who fired this guy. We will keep seeing things like this until the call and need for real leadership arises. Hell we have a chat group dedicated to it.

[JeremiahWeed]

17 minutes ago, Guardian said:

We are in a lot of trouble in the next full up war if when we go in we have leaders like the one who fired this guy. We will keep seeing things like this until the call and need for real leadership arises. Hell we have a chat group dedicated to it.

Interesting perspective.  Don't know the leader who did the firing.  I'll assume what has been posted previously is accurate regarding the expectations of that leader re: the altitude and airspeed of this maneuver.

Full up war or not - is it not reasonable for a leader to expect compliance with limits that he set and were agreed upon by his subordinates?  Couldn't one make the argument that failing a simple test of disciple in peacetime puts into questions this squadron CC's ability to pass far more serious tests of discipline in a full up war?  600 feet and 350 kts doesn't look as good as 200' and 500 knots.  But considering the lack of experience and currency that created an environment where an F-18 speared a C-130 on a night AAR, maybe it's possible little of that currency problem has been solved.  As simple as that flyby may be for most current, hard charging guys - maybe higher and slower was all the General felt those guys were capable of at that time. 

If the jet doing the flyby hit the water and the CC wasn't in the jet, would you be saying the same thing about the lack of "real leadership" over the decision to fire him?  Just because someone didn't mort doesn't make the lack of discipline acceptable.  What if the CC of the squadron with the tanker mid-air had briefed the General that they wouldn't do night AAR and then did it anyway?  Where's the line if not exactly where it's been agreed on.

[Guardian]

Made up narratives and postulating on things that didn’t happen nor were they close to happening is a bad way to live life and lead. Those are statements and questions made from fear (or AWC learning) than true reflection of risk vs reward and appropriate punishment for said actions.

[LookieRookie]

If the 350 kt and 600’ briefing is true, I can completely understand the firing. A 150kt and 400’ delta is a big ass intentional deviation.

The former CO also didn’t do himself any favors with this comment. Now I’ve never done a Marine flyover but Id imagine tower/rapcon deconflicts traffic. Not to mention when I have a traffic conflict my first thought is, yea I’ll speed up a 100+ kts and drop to the deck.

 

“

“We had landing traffic,” Featherstone said. “We had to de-conflict from that and felt sandwiched in a little bit.”

According to Featherstone, who was in the rear seat and not flying the aircraft, his attention was on the aircraft that was landing and not on where his pilot was flying.

“I can’t tell you why the pilot descended.” he said. “Obviously I’m unhappy with the way this turned out, but, as commander I’m ultimately responsible. If deemed outside the box, I’m responsible.”

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/military/story/2020-01-31/video-this-f-a-18-flyover-cost-a-miramar-squadron-commander-his-job-and-likely-his-career

 

 

[BashiChuni]

"Not only was the flyover too low, Featherstone said, but in avoiding the landing traffic, the pilot also flew too close and too fast to where onlookers were watching."

seems cut and dry to me. low SA to do something different from the brief when you know lots of eyeballs will be on you. and sandwiched between landing traffic? GMAFB.

if i was the general i'd take that entire low flyby as a huge middle finger

[brickhistory]

Was the action worthy of firing a commander?  Or more worthy of a closed door one-way conversation?  

Does the firing contribute to the next guy being inflexible to mistakes that don't bend metal or hurt anybody?

 

Either way, DAL/AA/UAL/SWA, et al gain.

[LaneHBO]

I don't think I've been to a flying squadron without a heritage room. A chief (noner) I know  erected a heritage room with a bar tap in an AETC training squadron that isn't affiliated with flying. I'm like why? Not trying to be a dick, but his CC let him do it and expects the inbound CC to shut it down. Anyone see a problem with the bar?

Said chief is going to a flying OG. He likes to slam doors and yell like he is back in SFS. I haven't said a word to him because if he does this in an OG, he can kiss his ass goodbye. Am I being a douchebag for not telling him he needs to tone it down before he leaves? I want to tell him nobody is going to be showing up on weekends to do PT with him. 

[17D_guy]

13 minutes ago, LaneHBO said:

I don't think I've been to a flying squadron without a heritage room. A chief (noner) I know  erected a heritage room with a bar tap in an AETC training squadron that isn't affiliated with flying. I'm like why? Not trying to be a dick, but his CC let him do it and expects the inbound CC to shut it down. Anyone see a problem with the bar?

What? No, you scared of someone else having fun at work?  We're trying to do a heritage bar as well...also not fliers.  Do you have a problem with our bar?

Quote

Said chief is going to a flying OG. He likes to slam doors and yell like he is back in SFS. I haven't said a word to him because if he does this in an OG, he can kiss his ass goodbye. Am I being a douchebag for not telling him he needs to tone it down before he leaves? I want to tell him nobody is going to be showing up on weekends to do PT with him. 

I don't know where you sit inside this Sq the chief's in...assistant to the Flt CC or something else...but if you think he's that bad, man up and say it.  I'm sure it can only come to good results and he'll thank you kindly for the heads up.

[DirkDiggler]

6 minutes ago, 17D_guy said:

What? No, you scared of someone else having fun at work?  We're trying to do a heritage bar as well...also not fliers.  Do you have a problem with our bar?

I don't know where you sit inside this Sq the chief's in...assistant to the Flt CC or something else...but if you think he's that bad, man up and say it.  I'm sure it can only come to good results and he'll thank you kindly for the heads up.

You guys all know that this LaneHBO guy is the previous HarleyQuinn/Shazaam/2Ex guy again right?  He just changed his name again, same bizarre posts.

[LookieRookie]

45 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

Was the action worthy of firing a commander?  Or more worthy of a closed door one-way conversation?  

Does the firing contribute to the next guy being inflexible to mistakes that don't bend metal or hurt anybody?

 

Either way, DAL/AA/UAL/SWA, et al gain.

This is based off everything I’ve read; but, a mistake isn’t an intentional deviation.

And yes, that is worthy of firing a commander, because if it’s kosher to lie to your boss’s boss about your intentions then you have a problem.

 

The big gotcha here is the alleged briefing. If it was “just do a flyby” there would be shades od gray. This wasnt.

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, DirkDiggler said:

You guys all know that this LaneHBO guy is the previous HarleyQuinn/Shazaam/2Ex guy again right?  He just changed his name again, same bizarre posts.

It’s like IT.....comes back if you don’t kill it with fire. 

[ThreeHoler]

I don't think I've been to a flying squadron without a heritage room. A chief (noner) I know  erected a heritage room with a bar tap in an AETC training squadron that isn't affiliated with flying. I'm like why? Not trying to be a dick, but his CC let him do it and expects the inbound CC to shut it down. Anyone see a problem with the bar?
Said chief is going to a flying OG. He likes to slam doors and yell like he is back in SFS. I haven't said a word to him because if he does this in an OG, he can kiss his ass goodbye. Am I being a douchebag for not telling him he needs to tone it down before he leaves? I want to tell him nobody is going to be showing up on weekends to do PT with him. 

Oh look HarleyQuinn/Shazam is back again with a new name.

[17D_guy]

3 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

You guys all know that this LaneHBO guy is the previous HarleyQuinn/Shazaam/2Ex guy again right?  He just changed his name again, same bizarre posts.

Damnit...I just thought it was an idiot Lt.

Edited February 3, 2020 by 17D_guy

[M2]

13 hours ago, DirkDiggler said:

You guys all know that this LaneHBO guy is the previous HarleyQuinn/Shazaam/2Ex guy again right?  He just changed his name again, same bizarre posts.

12 hours ago, Homestar said:

It’s like IT.....comes back if you don’t kill it with fire. 

ADMIN NOTE:  "It's" been taken care of (again).  In fact, someone already had it taken care of it when I went to take care of it!

[contraildash]

On 2/1/2020 at 3:18 AM, NEflyer said:

It's much easier to shift blame to the men for recent aviation fatalities and call them "cowboys" rather than acknowledge the massive organization faults, lack of resources, and corrupt leadership truly causing these accidents. 

For those who haven't read it yet, this should offer some context:

https://www.propublica.org/article/marines-hornet-squadron-242-crash-pacific-resilard

Well either way he wasn't going to be a SQ/CC for long...unless I'm not aware of a F-35 variant that has an extra seat for NFOs.....