Security Clearance questions

[brabus]

I think BL is it may not affect your secret clearance, but you will have to denounce for commissioning/getting your TS. On somewhat of a side note, I thought the US didn't allow dual citizenship period (civilian or military), but obviously the OP has/had it...so does the State Dept only allow dual citizenship w/ certain countries?

[Archa3opt3ryx]

I think BL is it may not affect your secret clearance, but you will have to denounce for commissioning/getting your TS. On somewhat of a side note, I thought the US didn't allow dual citizenship period (civilian or military), but obviously the OP has/had it...so does the State Dept only allow dual citizenship w/ certain countries?

The person who interviewed me for my US Citizenship basically said that the government doesn't have any specific documentation allowing or banning dual citizenship. They basically turn a blind eye to it. I was never once asked to renounce my UK citizenship during the whole process, even though I openly admitted at every step along the way that I am a UK citizen and don't intend on renouncing that after I get my US.

[brabus]

Didn't know that. Despite that fact, I'm still pretty sure that from a commissioning standpoint you can only be a US citizen. I'm not 100% sure, but I've definitely heard that a few times. I'm sure your cadre can dig up a reg somewhere that addresses this better than the one you found.

[Guest Jimmy]

Major bummer. Dual Citizenship is like having two mothers. One you were born to, and one that adopted you. I know that by commissioning, you are swearing to defend one of them, but it's very painful to have to denounce the other. Oh well, sacrifices must be made.

[Pakin]

Hello, another question.

Do they use the term "citizenship" technically? I have a permanent resident status in HKSAR, but I am not defined as a citizen (no rights to vote, hold office positions, military conscription, etc.). Can it pose an issue with security clearances?

[brabus]

I'm pretty sure the rules don't forbid you from owning property in another country. As long as you're an American citizen (who just happens to own property in HK), it shouldn't matter. You may have to deal w/ some extra security clearance questioning, but I couldn't imagine much beyond that.

[Toro]

Do they use the term "citizenship" technically? I have a permanent resident status in HKSAR, but I am not defined as a citizen (no rights to vote, hold office positions, military conscription, etc.). Can it pose an issue with security clearances?

Yes. Anyone who is not born and bred in the US will have issues. I had a student recently whose mother was Egyptian and father was Israeli (yeah, odd combo). I can't remember where he grew up, but it was somewhere abroad. He got his secret clearance but after 6-9 months in ops he still didn't have a TS.

[Guest C5Heavy]

Let me shed some light on this subject. Having dual citizenship doesn't spoil your chances.If you have recently become a US citizen i.e. after 9/11/01, you were subjected to the rigorous namecheck/background process which you passed. Getting a clearance is a step above that i.e a more thorough. It might take up to 3-6 months to get cleared since your background is also investigated in your country of origin (should the law permit). So no worries if you haven't committed any offenses or wanted in your country or origin etc.

Do your AFOQT and ace it, same for the other processes. Do you best and don't let this idea of dual citizenship hold you back. The only thing you cannot do as a naturalized citizen is to become the US President

Questions? Fire away

[Guest Jimmy]

My country of birth isn't making me renounce at all. I called the embassy and asked them about it and they say they haven't really ever processed a renunciation case due to someone's desire to become a military officer for as long as they can remember. I'm still trying to figure it out, but from everyone I've talked to, the United States would have to make me denounce my foreign citizenship either in order to commission, or gain security clearances. From your experience, is this the case?

[Archa3opt3ryx]

Let me shed some light on this subject. Having dual citizenship doesn't spoil your chances.If you have recently become a US citizen i.e. after 9/11/01, you were subjected to the rigorous namecheck/background process which you passed. Getting a clearance is a step above that i.e a more thorough. It might take up to 3-6 months to get cleared since your background is also investigated in your country of origin (should the law permit). So no worries if you haven't committed any offenses or wanted in your country or origin etc.

Do your AFOQT and ace it, same for the other processes. Do you best and don't let this idea of dual citizenship hold you back. The only thing you cannot do as a naturalized citizen is to become the US President

Questions? Fire away

Can I ask what authority/experience you have to state that? Not trying to shoot you down or anything (on the contrary, I hope you're right), just curious where that info is coming from. The NCOs at my det basically told me I'll have to denounce my UK. He said he put a call in to the guys that actually do the security clearance stuff and thats what they said.

[Herk Driver]

LoneWolf, your NCOs are mistaken and whoever they "talked" to are also mistaken unless there is newer guidance out.

BTW, renounce (give up) and denounce (condemn) have two entirely different meanings.

Here it is in black and white. Everything you always wanted to know about dual citizenship and the USAF. Sorry for the lengthy post, but this took me all of about .69 minutes to search on the AF pubs website, so I thought I'd share.

AFI31-501 27 JANUARY 2005 (This was all new text when this was released)

5.7. Dual Citizenship. A security concern could exist when a military member, DoD civilian, contractor, or consultant is submitted for a personnel security investigation and they are a dual citizen and/or possess/ use a foreign passport.

5.7.1. Dual Citizenship. Dual citizenship in and of itself is not an automatic disqualifier for security clearance eligibility. However, possession of dual citizenship and particularly the exercise of dual citizenship is a condition that raises a security concern and may be a disqualifying factor in a security clearance eligibility determination. There are factors that could mitigate the maintenance of dual citizenship, as outlined in DoD 5200.2-R, App I, Foreign Preference. An individual’s expressed willingness to renounce dual citizenship is one of the conditions that could mitigate security concerns.

5.7.2. Possession or Use of a Foreign Passport. Possession and/or use of a foreign passport in preference to a US passport raises doubt as to whether the person’s allegiance to the US is paramount and could also facilitate foreign travel unverifiable by the US. The security clearance will be denied or revoked, unless the applicant surrenders the foreign passport or obtains official approval for its use from SAF/AA. Requests for approval are forwarded through respective Information Security Program Manager (ISPM) channels to HQ USAF/XOS-FI for processing to SAF/AA. Justification must include what benefit the AF will gain from a person holding a foreign passport. AFCAF will annotate approvals in the remarks field of the JPAS.

5.7.3. Surrendering the Passport. Individuals who indicate they possess a foreign passport in item 15

of the Electronic Personnel Security Questionnaire or item 17d on the Standard Form 86, “Questionnaire for National Security Positions,” will be required to surrender the passport via one of the following methods:

5.7.3.1. Re turn the passport to the appropriate country embassy or consulate via certified receipt mail. A copy of the transmittal memo forwarding the passport and the return receipt will be forwarded to the AFCAF. See para 6.1. for AFCAF address. If the name of adjudicator assigned to the case is known, include this in the ATTN line of the address.

5.7.3.2. Destroy the passport as witnessed by an AF security manager. Cut up the passport and place in a burn bag. The witnessing security manager will document the destruction of the passport in an explanatory memorandum, which will be forwarded to the AFCAF and a copy provided to the subject.

5.7.4. Security Clearance Eligibility. In order for individuals who hold foreign passport and dual citizenship to be considered for and/or be granted security clearance eligibility the following must be completed:

5.7.4.1. Provide a written statement expressing their willingness to renounce foreign citizenship claims in favor of a sole United States citizenship status. Actual renouncement is not required.

5.7.4.2. Return and or destroy the passport.

5.7.5. The renouncement statement and documentation of destruction of the passport must be provided to the AFCAF. The AFCAF reviews each case on its own merits to determine security clearance eligibility.

5.7.6. This same guidance will apply if the passport is identified after a security clearance determination is made.

[afthunderchief16]

As far as clearances go, all officers are required to have at least a secret clearance. Everyone on contract prior to FT has a scholarship is on contract has to get. Otherwise, after FT when you return and complete all of your contract stuff, oath of enlistment, etc you send in your packet for Secret. As far as secret goes, out of ROTC pretty much the only people that get it are Pilot, Nav and ABM selects as well as Intel students. You submit your packet for that and begin the application/interview process (which is a pain in the a$$) as soon as you are awarded a slot. I started mine last march/april and they aren't expecting it to be completed basically until I commission in May. Obviously, though, you will know much sooner if you are "red flagged" for any reason and won't be given a TS clearance. In that case, your slot for whatever is pulled, you might get a chance to commission as something else, and might be considered for disenrollment from the program. Hope this helps.

[jjfly]

My roommate last yr commissioned as an ABM. He got his Top Secret back within a few months. Another career field that needs it is OSI, by the way.

[Guest F16crewdwgg]

As far as clearances go, all officers are required to have at least a secret clearance. Everyone on contract prior to FT has a scholarship is on contract has to get. Otherwise, after FT when you return and complete all of your contract stuff, oath of enlistment, etc you send in your packet for Secret. As far as secret goes, out of ROTC pretty much the only people that get it are Pilot, Nav and ABM selects as well as Intel students. You submit your packet for that and begin the application/interview process (which is a pain in the a$$) as soon as you are awarded a slot. I started mine last march/april and they aren't expecting it to be completed basically until I commission in May. Obviously, though, you will know much sooner if you are "red flagged" for any reason and won't be given a TS clearance. In that case, your slot for whatever is pulled, you might get a chance to commission as something else, and might be considered for disenrollment from the program. Hope this helps.

I was fined for downloading music at my college.. but it stays inside the college and is erased after 2yrs. This was about 3 yrs ago. Is this something worth mentioning.. Does anyone know?

[afthunderchief16]

Also, do they ever polygraph?

-Thanks for the help by the way.

I have yet to hear of them hooking anyone up to a lie detector test... The folks doing the interviews are experienced enough and have done enough research on you that they will get you backed in to a corner quicker than you could imagine. They basically are human polygraphs...

[Guest F16crewdwgg]

I have yet to hear of them hooking anyone up to a lie detector test... The folks doing the interviews are experienced enough and have done enough research on you that they will get you backed in to a corner quicker than you could imagine. They basically are human polygraphs...

With that being said, is something you got in trouble for inside school.. (downloading music) having nothing to do with outside law enforcment. Something taken care of inside school and will be thrown out 2 yrs after recorded.. IS that something worth mentioning?

[M2]

Also, do they ever polygraph?

-Thanks for the help by the way.

Certain joint/national organizations require polygraphs...

Cheers! M2

[M2]

I was fined for downloading music at my college.. but it stays inside the college and is erased after 2yrs. This was about 3 yrs ago. Is this something worth mentioning.. Does anyone know?

Were you arrested and/or charged and had to appear in a real court, or is this some college thing? Unless it has to do with the real law (not college rules), don't worry about it. I didn't report the parking tickets I didn't pay in college, but anything that might be in a record tied to your SSN you had better note.

Trust me, most folks with TS/SCI clearances are no angels, but we are trusted with the government's highest secrets so there are requirements you must meet before that will happen. I am sure most of the folks on this board would pass a background check, although they are exhaustive and expensive, so most people don't need or will ever see one.

Cheers! M2

[afthunderchief16]

Ya, like M2 said, unless there is an "official" paper trail that followed your free music search infractions, there isn't much of a chance that they would really look in to it and/or care. Now if you were to bring it up in an interview, that would raise some questions for them but I wouldn't really think that it would prevent you from getting through the process. On that note, some of the things that they really harp on are your financial history/debts/etc. They have decided that things such as that show a lot about one's history. I guess in some way they can, but once again, they really start digging once you start mentioning things like that. As much as this is a personal history test, it is a personal character test as well

[M2]

Yes, some and I would guess most engineers require a TS. This is simply based on the thousands of them up at Wright-Pat.

As for piss tests and AFROTC, I don't know about the non-contracted cadets but if you are on a contract then you are in the USAFR and yes, Big Daddy can ask for a cup of your finest at any time...and by the way, a simple search would have revealed the answer could be found here. This is the military law you will or may already be subject to, I strongly suggest you take some time to learn it!

Cheers! M2

[Guest pblarson7]

Do 21AX - Maintenance Officers need TS clearance? I commission in May but haven't heard anything about it yet so I'm assuming not. I figure I'll need it if i'm ever in a hangar with any of our planes.

[outbreak]

my tactic when doing the interviews was to answer their questions completely, but i didn't go throwing out any treats for them. Their job is to dig for dirt and I made them work for every bit. I was 100% truthful, and anything i wouldn't have mentioned, they already knew about. It was all in-house University stuff (parking tickets, overdue library books, etc) which they didn't give 2 shits about. They asked about a bunch of friends and I answered those truthfully too, but they tried to ask broad questions like "what can you tell me about Steve?" I politely requested more specific questions. I'm not saying to be difficult or beligerent, but don't go spilling your guts too readily. They're investigating your ability to keeps secrets and I figured laying out my life story to a stranger with a badge probably wasn't going to help that process.

[afthunderchief16]

Do 21AX - Maintenance Officers need TS clearance? I commission in May but haven't heard anything about it yet so I'm assuming not. I figure I'll need it if i'm ever in a hangar with any of our planes.

You don't need it coming out of ROTC but depending on where you end up and what you are working on, they may bump your clearance. As far as I know and talkng to my buddies that are future and current maintainers they are good to go with their secret

[M2]

So do engineers needs TS then... anymore input on this?

From what I read it was just pilots nav abms and intel folk.

Some engineers have TS/SCI clearances. Matter of fact, you will find folks in many AFSCs other than the ones you've listed that need and have TS/SCI clearances. We have PA folks, comms guys, and a myraid of other Air Force personnel working in the joint organization I am in. It all depends on what jobs you have.

And I believe the majority of aircrew do not have TS clearances. On the other hand, most intel bubbas do...

Cheers! M2

[Guest F16crewdwgg]

Actually, I just called my school and there is a case on file with them. They also said some times the federal agents come in and check, so FYI for all you guys do not mess it up for yourselfs, put all that garabage even from college on the table. Better to not have them blindsided with anything even if it was not that serious.. :)