Active retirement in ARC

[CopyShot]

Trying to make sure I understand the finer points of ANG/AFRC retirement policies.  If this has already been asked/answered, please vector me onto this.  I know that someone who has 20+ years of service qualifies for a retirement at age 60 (minus activated time in the ARC in 3-month blocks).  My understanding is that if someone completes a total of 20+ years of active service between AD and/or on orders/AGR in the ARC, they qualify to draw retirement pay at the time of their retirement.  (I.e., 16 years active component + 4 years on full time orders). Is this correct?

I know having 7200+ points isn’t sufficient for an AD retirement without 20 years active service, and serving in an ART status as a GS is a whole other system.  Just want to make sure I’m tracking correctly on how this works.

[matmacwc]

1 day = 1 point, get 7300 of them, immediate active duty retirement.  Undershoot the number, the percentage of 7300 you get is the percentage you get of an active duty retirement at 60.

Disclamer, some ANG or AFRC "points" don't count to the 7300.

Edited December 23, 2017 by matmacwc

[herkbum]

14 hours ago, matmacwc said:

1 day = 1 point, get 7300 of them, immediate active duty retirement.  Undershoot the number, the percentage of 7300 you get is the percentage you get of an active duty retirement at 60.

Disclamer, some ANG or AFRC "points" don't count to the 7300.

Is this written in a reg somewhere?  No DSG in my state, to my knowledge, has been able to be granted a full AD retirement once they have accrued one. Only AGRs have been granted the retirement. 

We are arguing that it is possible, but have no written proof, and usually meet resistance from the state level.  Granted we have not actually filed paperwork since none of our folks has reached the mark yet (we are trying to lead turn it).  But a few will reach the mark in the next year or 2 and we believe they have rightly earned a full AD retirement. With a very large number in the next 3-7 years (nature of current mission). We know other states have done this, but no one has provided any documentation. I can’t argue the point to state leadership on WOMs. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by herkbum

[matmacwc]

I'll look into it, I even know an ART that somehow got to 7300 points.

[SocialD]

The way I understand it, is that you could have 7200 "retire" points and still not qualify for a AD retirement.  Log into vMPF and go to your points summary that has the breakdown by year.  It has multiple columns like IDT, AD, Retire and Total.   You need the AD column to total 7,200 to get a full AD retirement.  Anything short of that and you get a Guard retirement at 60 which will be calculated off the number in your retire column. At least that's the way it was explained to me.  This is all from a briefing many years ago so don't quote me on this.  I also think, once you hit 7200 AD points, they count all the points in your "retire" column, toward that retirement, which could be a bit higher.  

 

[herkbum]

I understand how the pt totals work. But the AD retirement for a DSG is all WOM until I see some proof. I get a lot of “I know someone who knows someone” that did it. I have also heard it mentioned before about giving a DSG an AD retirement somehow has an effect on big blue’s end strength number or something-maybe unfunded or unexpected expense since big blue didn’t have vis on this individual.  Seems a little far-fetched, but who knows.  I think the resistance for us is at our JFHQ level.

I’m an AGR, so this doesn’t affect me. But I think folks that have the points should be able to retire with the benefits. 

[Danny Noonin]

Inactive duty points (UTA, TP, etc) don’t count toward AD retirement. They only count towards your reserve retirement check calculations drawn later in life.

 

Only active duty days count toward active duty retirement. (RegAF time+ AGR, MPA, RPA, etc). They also count as one point per calendar day of active duty served toward reserve retirement calculations.

 

 

[Smokin]

"Points", at least as far as most guard guys talk about points, don't matter, it is the active duty equivalency days that matter.  If you look at the PCARS on vMPF, the far left 'AD" column is what you care about to get the active duty retirement.  Even for AGR guys, that number will be less than the total points, but the AD number is the one you care about in this case.  The ARPC website says you need 20 years AD service, I'd assume that means you need 7300 AD days, or 7305 if they really wanted to be exact.  Also a good idea to keep check that yearly, I've had to have them fix it multiple times for me.

 

A bit dated, but from the horses mouth and I can't imagine it has changed:

https://www.arpc.afrc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/366456/officials-offer-guidance-for-active-duty-retirement/

[Disco_Nav963]

Thread bump. I have a friend on AD who opted into the Blended Retirement System. Is there any way he could get an AD retirement from AFRC (through AGR, troughing on MPA, etc) given that he's in BRS? i.e. Without the 20 year vested cliff, is there any point goalpost whatsoever that would get him the immediate defined benefit at retirement vs. waiting until age 60 (minus buyback time)?

[Gazmo]

Once you're in the Blended retirement system you're in it for life. There is no changing even if you go to the air reserve component.

[matmacwc]

19 hours ago, Disco_Nav963 said:

Thread bump. I have a friend on AD who opted into the Blended Retirement System.

Da-fuq ?

[Disco_Nav963]

1 hour ago, Gazmo said:

Once you're in the Blended retirement system you're in it for life. There is no changing even if you go to the air reserve component.

Yeah, tracking on that. The question is whether one can be in BRS and get an AD retirement from the Reserves/Guard. i.e. Collect the defined benefit immediately upon retiring vs. waiting until 60ish. After doing some Googling, I now realize my question above was based on a false premise. 

I thought the 20 year vested cliff had gone away because of all the talk about "BRS gives you something if you leave short of 20 years." i.e. I thought if you ducked out at 15 years, you'd get 30% of your High-3 (15 times the 2% multiplier) and your TSP savings. Reading up on it now, it looks like you still have to hit the 20 year vested cliff to get the defined benefit. Leave the service short of that, you only walk away with your TSP savings. [I was at 11 years of service when the BRS rollout happened, so opting in made zero sense for me and I brain dumped the details.]

Based on that, I'd think if you hit 7,305 AD points in BRS you would still be able to get your AD retirement... Just the BRS version with the 40% of High-3 + your TSP savings.

A separate issue for this cat is whether he'd be able to trough or get AGR or VLPAD out to 7305 points starting from the end of his UPT commitment (in another 2-3 years), while living where he wants to live which is New England (Boston specifically). On the AFRC side it looks like his best chance would be to try to get hired into C-5s and trough/AGR or maybe ANG tankers at Pease. As far as long term financial return + lifestyle, I imagine he'd be better off getting his line number with the airlines and doing the ANG/Reserve part time if he wants to keep a foot in military aviation.  

[Disco_Nav963]

46 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

Da-fuq ?

My reaction also.

[SurelySerious]

5 minutes ago, Disco_Nav963 said:

My reaction also.

Exactly, if you really read into the BRS, the 40% only kicks in if you stay for 20. The only thing you can keep leaving early are what you put into the TSP, and matching still takes 2 years to be vested and keep it. 

[herkbier]

Who doesn’t stay for two years though.. the vesting is a non issue for 99.9% of the military population. I switched to BRS, The likelihood of picking up a retirement seems pretty slim to me..  I’ll serve in the guard/reserve to fulfill my sense of duty to our country, but I’ll count on my future airline job to achieve a comfortable retirement. So in the end, the difference between 40% and 50% at age 60 seems pretty meaningless. 

[SurelySerious]

8 minutes ago, herkbier said:

Who doesn’t stay for two years though.. the vesting is a non issue for 99.9% of the military population. I switched to BRS, The likelihood of picking up a retirement seems pretty slim to me..  I’ll serve in the guard/reserve to fulfill my sense of duty to our country, but I’ll count on my future airline job to achieve a comfortable retirement. So in the end, the difference between 40% and 50% at age 60 seems pretty meaningless. 

For people whose ADSC expires less than two years after BRS opt-in, it’s an important distinction. 

[herkbier]

Are contributions from my service also mine to keep if I separate from service?
This is where the word “vested” comes in. Being vested means having ownership. To be fully vested in your account means you are entitled to all of the funds in it.
Like any uniformed services member with a TSP account, BRS members are always vested in their own contributions and their earnings. They're also immediately vested in Service Matching Contributions and their earnings. To become vested in Service Automatic (1%) Contributions, however, you must have completed at least two years of service. If you’ve completed two years of service before you opt in, you’re immediately vested in your entire account.

https://www.tsp.gov/PDF/formspubs/tspfs01.pdf

[SurelySerious]

The more you know. 

[Loach]

I'm a little late replying to the original poster, but as a reservist (ANG and AFR) who is now collecting an active duty ("Regular") retirement and wasn't an AGR, I can shed some light on the process.

It takes 7305 total active duty points to qualify for an active duty retirement.  As such, at some point many years ago, I made it a point to take every day of active duty whenever possible, including MPA, RPA, ADSW, and some AGR tours.  All of that counted towards my 20 years (including 4 years of active duty in the Army) as well as my time in UNT.  I went over 20 years of active duty while on a long-term MPA tour while assigned as an AFRC Traditional Reservist.  The hard part was the sanctuary waivers as you're required to have one for each tour when you exceed 16 years (I know sanctuary doesn't kick-in until 18, but AFRC wants them when over 16 years).  Also problematic was 1095, which required a waiver and makes it difficult to do tour over 3 years.  There are ways to get around 1095, but it's difficult.

Once I exceeded the 20 years and ended my MPA tour, I went to being a traditional reservist again, and had to stay a few months longer to meet the timeline to transfer my GI Bill to my kids (I missed that in 2013 b/c I was in a "No pay, no points" situation for a bogus medical reason).  In any event, I applied for an active duty retirement through vPCGR (or whatever it's called now) and retired late in 2017.  In addition to having about 20 years and 6 months of actual "active duty" points, I was credited with another 25 months of service for my guard and reserve time (and any correspondence courses).  It's called "1405 time" and I believe it references the section of law or the CFR that allows those non-AD points to be computed into your active duty retirement.  So, in the end of it, I did about 30 years of total service, with 20 years 10 months of actual active duty and had another 800ish points added to that total to come up with my multiplier based on a total as if I had served for 23 years and 6 months on active duty (~58.75% or something close to that of my high 3).  I did lose some of my guard and reserve points for the years in which i did a lot of active duty (i.e. I was an AGR for 3 years, so couldn't use those 45 membership points earned during those three years in which i was an AGR for the full 365 days).  Also, all active duty retirements are based on a full month of service, meaning, I lost about another 22 points, b/c my total was something like 23 years, 6 months and 22 days of service.  Needed to do another 8 points (active or reserve points) to get credit for another month and a higher multiplier (not much -- 0.21%). 

Also, my "high 3" was based on my last 3 years in the reserves, and NOT the last 3 years I was on active duty.  If that had been the case my high 3 would've been based on the pay for 2015, 2016 and 2017 as that's when i was on active duty.  I remained a traditional reservist for almost 7 months in  2017 and didn't do much if any active duty then.  I was told my high 3 would be based on when I actually performed AD, but instead, it was computed using the 9 months I was in the reserves in 2017 (of which 7 were NOT on active duty) and then all of 2016, 2015 and 5 months from 2014.  The point to this is, even if you can't get the AD retirement right away, don't think they're going to go back and use your AD from 3 or 4 years ago to compute your retirement.

One last thing: I'm a GS employee with a non-DoD agency and I'd bought back 13 years of active service when i got hired in 2008.  Once I retired my agency contacted me to tell me they were going to refund my deposit, b/c you cannot use the time twice if you're collecting an active duty retirement.  Just keep that in mind if you're an Technician or ART.  Without a doubt the AD retirement is much better than buying back the time (in my case), particularly with TRICARE.  I don't plan on staying too long at my federal job, and having health insurance is a HUGE benefit in allowing me to do what I want going forward (and you only get it with the Fed Gov't as a civilian if you take an "immediate annuity" which can significantly reduce your pension depending on your age).

Hope that helps -- it was a confusing process and there's a lot of misinformation out there. 

[herkbum]

I'm a little late replying to the original poster, but as a reservist (ANG and AFR) who is now collecting an active duty ("Regular") retirement and wasn't an AGR, I can shed some light on the process.
It takes 7305 total active duty points to qualify for an active duty retirement.  As such, at some point many years ago, I made it a point to take every day of active duty whenever possible, including MPA, RPA, ADSW, and some AGR tours.  All of that counted towards my 20 years (including 4 years of active duty in the Army) as well as my time in UNT.  I went over 20 years of active duty while on a long-term MPA tour while assigned as an AFRC Traditional Reservist.  The hard part was the sanctuary waivers as you're required to have one for each tour when you exceed 16 years (I know sanctuary doesn't kick-in until 18, but AFRC wants them when over 16 years).  Also problematic was 1095, which required a waiver and makes it difficult to do tour over 3 years.  There are ways to get around 1095, but it's difficult.
Once I exceeded the 20 years and ended my MPA tour, I went to being a traditional reservist again, and had to stay a few months longer to meet the timeline to transfer my GI Bill to my kids (I missed that in 2013 b/c I was in a "No pay, no points" situation for a bogus medical reason).  In any event, I applied for an active duty retirement through vPCGR (or whatever it's called now) and retired late in 2017.  In addition to having about 20 years and 6 months of actual "active duty" points, I was credited with another 25 months of service for my guard and reserve time (and any correspondence courses).  It's called "1405 time" and I believe it references the section of law or the CFR that allows those non-AD points to be computed into your active duty retirement.  So, in the end of it, I did about 30 years of total service, with 20 years 10 months of actual active duty and had another 800ish points added to that total to come up with my multiplier based on a total as if I had served for 23 years and 6 months on active duty (~58.75% or something close to that of my high 3).  I did lose some of my guard and reserve points for the years in which i did a lot of active duty (i.e. I was an AGR for 3 years, so couldn't use those 45 membership points earned during those three years in which i was an AGR for the full 365 days).  Also, all active duty retirements are based on a full month of service, meaning, I lost about another 22 points, b/c my total was something like 23 years, 6 months and 22 days of service.  Needed to do another 8 points (active or reserve points) to get credit for another month and a higher multiplier (not much -- 0.21%). 
Also, my "high 3" was based on my last 3 years in the reserves, and NOT the last 3 years I was on active duty.  If that had been the case my high 3 would've been based on the pay for 2015, 2016 and 2017 as that's when i was on active duty.  I remained a traditional reservist for almost 7 months in  2017 and didn't do much if any active duty then.  I was told my high 3 would be based on when I actually performed AD, but instead, it was computed using the 9 months I was in the reserves in 2017 (of which 7 were NOT on active duty) and then all of 2016, 2015 and 5 months from 2014.  The point to this is, even if you can't get the AD retirement right away, don't think they're going to go back and use your AD from 3 or 4 years ago to compute your retirement.
One last thing: I'm a GS employee with a non-DoD agency and I'd bought back 13 years of active service when i got hired in 2008.  Once I retired my agency contacted me to tell me they were going to refund my deposit, b/c you cannot use the time twice if you're collecting an active duty retirement.  Just keep that in mind if you're an Technician or ART.  Without a doubt the AD retirement is much better than buying back the time (in my case), particularly with TRICARE.  I don't plan on staying too long at my federal job, and having health insurance is a HUGE benefit in allowing me to do what I want going forward (and you only get it with the Fed Gov't as a civilian if you take an "immediate annuity" which can significantly reduce your pension depending on your age).
Hope that helps -- it was a confusing process and there's a lot of misinformation out there. 

Great summary and checks with what we told the past few days by HRO during a class.



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[MooseAg03]

So how exactly is the High 3 calculated? It sounds like Loach is saying they chose to not use the time he was active even though it was the highest paying. I thought it was just the average of the full-time base pay rate of your last 3 years of service. Do they actually base retirement pay on what you’re actually paid those last 3 years of guard reserve?

 

 

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[ThreeHoler]

High-36 = “Average of highest 36 months of basic pay”

https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Retirement/


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[MooseAg03]

From my previous investigation into this, I thought it would be based on the full base pay rate of your last 3 years. The definition below seems to support that, so as Loach said why would they not take his High 3 from when he was on active orders?

High-36 Plan
The retired pay base for a qualified reserve retirement under the High-36 retirement plan is the total amount of monthly basic pay to which the member was entitled during the member's high-36 months divided by 36. This includes months to which the member would have been entitled if the member had served on active duty during the entire period. Usually this will be the average of the 36 months for the member's pay grade and years of service taken from the pay tables in effect for the 36 months immediately preceding the date that retired pay begins, regardless of when the member stopped participation (i.e. went into the gray area).
The High-36 retirement plan uses a multiplier % that is the same as the final pay plan.




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[Vertigo]

On 10/26/2018 at 2:03 PM, Loach said:

Also, my "high 3" was based on my last 3 years in the reserves, and NOT the last 3 years I was on active duty.  If that had been the case my high 3 would've been based on the pay for 2015, 2016 and 2017 as that's when i was on active duty.  I remained a traditional reservist for almost 7 months in  2017 and didn't do much if any active duty then.  I was told my high 3 would be based on when I actually performed AD, but instead, it was computed using the 9 months I was in the reserves in 2017 (of which 7 were NOT on active duty) and then all of 2016, 2015 and 5 months from 2014.  The point to this is, even if you can't get the AD retirement right away, don't think they're going to go back and use your AD from 3 or 4 years ago to compute your retirement.

 

It's calculated off the pay chart for your rank and TIS, not off of your LES.... If they had calculated it the way you wanted them to, your retirement pay would have been less than it is now because of the pay raise at the beginning of the year.

[AirGuardianC141747]

Great post Loach. I did pretty much the same. Pure AD, GS-13(on long term MPA until 1095/1440 waivers quit) ADOS, MPA, AGR, STAT TOURs... As mentioned before, it is not an easy endeavor to attain a full AD retirement within AFRC or the ANG Reserve Components but possible with some “ STRATEGERY “ - Bush II. Attaining an AGR position is one of the best methods, but if you can do the pain - Statutory Tours are very amiable but may require a move plus Staff work. Plenty of pain, but well worth the gain now facing forward looking back from the airline world. A true blessing during the transition from blue to gray.